False Prophecies?

[djholmess]

I'm not quite a defender of the church, I just asked a question and "the sometimes saint" came up with these. I'd think the same standards applied to the bible could be applied to Joseph Smith.

That is what i'm trying to do. If you notice none of the prophecies quoted above actually say 'x will happen within x timeframe.' Without going into all those prophecies above I believe there are some yet to be fulfilled and others that with a deeper study of the context of the prophecies it would be obvious they are fulfilled. Yet JS did give a timeframe and his timeframe has passed.

[thesometimesaint]

djholmess:

Your double standard is getting tiresome. The LDS have long recognized the "If "X" happens the "Y" will happen. "Y" is conditional on "X" happening. That is known as a conditional prophecy. The Bible is full of them. It also full of unconditional prophecies. I have listed just a few. Do you want to talk about the Prophet Jonah?

[Kevin Christensen]

However as a bible believeing Christian I must test JS by scrupture and as I quoted above Deut 18 doesn't seem to leave any room for a single false prophecy/revelation. Hence why I'm intrested to find out why some Mormons hold JS to be a true prophet in light of D&C 84.

Are you interested enough to read the essay on Biblical Keys for Discerning True and False Prophets? Would it be helpful to consider Joseph Smith in light of the 27 other tests? And do you happen to have any other candidates that look better in relation to the full set of tests than does Joseph Smith?

Or say Duane Crowther's book on the Prophecies of Joseph Smith, showing over a hundred fulfilled prophecies? Do they count?

Does it matter than even within the Bible, (as I noted in a linked section) the Deut. 18 test is the most qualified test in practice, and the one most subject to abuse, even within the Bible.

• Prophets can be misunderstood (for example, John 3:18-22)
  
• Prophecy may have its fulfillment contested, either through misinformation, or cunningly devised fables. (Matthew 28:12-13)
  
• Prophecy may be distant fulfillment. (For example, 2 Peter 3:9)
  
• Prophecy may be of conditional fulfillment (Jeremiah 18:8-10)
  
• Prophets may speak their own opinion. (2 Corinthians 8:8)
  
• Prophets may even speak presumptuously on occasion. (2 Samuel 7:14)
  
• Prophets may disagree among themselves on some matters. (Acts 15:39)
  
• A prophet's words may be recorded imperfectly. (Compare Acts 9:7 and Acts 22:9)
  
• Finally, even prophets may misinterpret prophecy. (It is clear that much of the New Testament presumes an immanent return in glory, necessitating eventual warnings not to expect such.)
  
• (Overall, see Isaiah 55:11)
  

And regarding the 1832 Kirtland revelation recorded as D&C 84:

4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.

5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

When I look at LDS history, I notice several cites were build by the gathering of saints. And it happens that the Saints did build a temple in Kirtland just a few years later, and the manifestations in the Kirtland temple were witnessed by many. It seems to me that the "this place" phrase can just as easily refer to the Kirtland location where the revelation was received, where the Saints were in fact gathering, and where they actually did built a temple where the glory of the Lord filled the house. What builds the City New Jerusalem is the gathering of the Saints, where ever they happen to be. That's a possible interpretation I think.

And of course there is the issue of conditional prophesy, or other times, of God asking people to do something that they don't get around to doing. Or even changing circumstances and changed expediencies.

Joseph Smith once remarked "a man would command his son to dig potatoes and saddle his horse, but before he had done either he would tell him to do something else. This is all considered right; but as soon as the Lord gives a commandment and revokes that decree and commands something else, then the Prophet is considered fallen."¹⁷

I have a theory that one of reasons critics are drawn to the Deuteronomy test is that the difficulties in interpreting various situations gives the critic more control over the outcome than the use of any other test. And one of the reasons that the other Biblical tests are generally neglected is that they tend to remove that control.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[djholmess]

djholmess:

Your double standard is getting tiresome. The LDS have long recognized the "If "X" happens the "Y" will happen. "Y" is conditional on "X" happening. That is known as a conditional prophecy. The Bible is full of them. It also full of unconditional prophecies. I have listed just a few. Do you want to talk about the Prophet Jonah?

I don't see how this is specifically relevant the D&C 84. If you believe the bible has unconditional prophecies that proved false then that's your business, if you want to start another thread about those I'd be happy to comment as far as my knowledge allowed.

I have been asking about JS, D&C 84 and why Mormons who believe it is not a false prophecy think it is fulfilled or has yet to be fulfilled. If your argument is that this prophecy was a conditional prophecy then can you show me where u get this from? So far it seems to me all you have said is that you think some biblical prophecies failed...how does this prove D&C 84 didn't? or do you believe it is a false prophecy?

[thesometimesaint]

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Alleged_false_prophecies/Independence_temple_to_be_built_%22in_this_generation%22

[KevinG]

Read Generation as genea synonymous with kindred. This does not denote the time of a human lifespan but denotes a family relationship. In our case it is understood that sometime in this dispensation of the Gospel we expect the temple to be built in Missouri and New Jerusalem will be established there.

There is another possibility and that is found in D&C 124:49 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their adiligence, and their enemies come upon them and bhinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to crequire that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings.

So the prophecy is not interpreted as narrowly as you have laid it out. Either we will see it happen in this dispensation or the Lord will find another place for the new Jerusalem to be established. Given our quiet activities and acquisition of lands in Missouri I suspect the former not the latter but time will tell.

[Glenn101]

I am aware that some have come true. However as a bible believeing Christian I must test JS by scrupture and as I quoted above Deut 18 doesn't seem to leave any room for a single false prophecy/revelation. Hence why I'm intrested to find out why some Mormons hold JS to be a true prophet in light of D&C 84.

Let's look at just a few of the apparently false prophecies and by extension false prophets in the Bible.

Biblical "false prophets"

Jeremiah:

1. Prophesies that Zedekiah will die in peace. (Jeremiah 34,4)

2. Zedekiah has his eyes put out and is taken to Babylon and imprisoned until his death. Jeremiah 52:11

Nathan

Nathan tells David that his throne will be established forever. (2 Samuel 7:13) There have been no heirs of David sitting on the throne of Judah for centuries.

Jonah

Jonah predicted that "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." (Jonah 3:4). But it did not happen. The Lord Spared Ninevah.

Jesus??????

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Does anyone know of any man or woman over 2000 years old and still alive???

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Those three direct quotes from Jesus are talking about the signs that were to precede His second coming. Go back and read them. Is there anyone that can say that the abominatiopn of desolation spoken of in Daniel happened during the life time of that generation? Was the Gospel taught to all men in all nations during the time of that generation????

I am taking those scriptures on their plain reading, not trying to spin or interpret them in any way. And by the criteria you have established, Jeremiah, Jonah, and even Jesus would be false prophets.

So, let me just add this one last scripture to the mix. Maybe the most important one.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Glenn

[Carborendum]

I find it telling that DJ has not looked at Kevin's links. It appears that he only wants to know that which supports his own point of view.

[KevinG]

I now prophesy that we will be instructed on how to interpret our own revelations so narrowly that they must be found false.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So are you trying to say 'the bible has false prophecies therefore it's ok for JS to have made one'?

Lets looks. You claim that JS has made some false prophecies. He must be discarded. We show you false procphies in the Bible.

What do you do? You totally skirt those issues. That is called a double standard.

Why do you not hold the Bible to the same standard as JS?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I don't see how this is specifically relevant the D&C 84. If you believe the bible has unconditional prophecies that proved false then that's your business, if you want to start another thread about those I'd be happy to comment as far as my knowledge allowed.

it is a false prophecy?

In other words, I don't care if there are false prophecies in the Bible we are talking about JS.

I have been asking about JS, D&C 84 and why Mormons who believe it is not a false prophecy think it is fulfilled or has yet to be fulfilled. If your argument is that this prophecy was a conditional prophecy then can you show me where u get this from? So far it seems to me all you have said is that you think some biblical prophecies failed...how does this prove D&C 84 didn't? or do you believe it is a false prophecy?

Dude, deal with what we laid out that was false and unfulfilled in the bible. Then we will talk about JS.

You might learn something.

[KevinG]

You might learn something.

He is not here to learn but to preach repentance unto the fallen deceived Mormons.

[Glenn101]

I have been asking about JS, D&C 84 and why Mormons who believe it is not a false prophecy think it is fulfilled or has yet to be fulfilled. If your argument is that this prophecy was a conditional prophecy then can you show me where u get this from? So far it seems to me all you have said is that you think some biblical prophecies failed...how does this prove D&C 84 didn't? or do you believe it is a false prophecy?

Here is Section 84 verse 4: "Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation."

Now compare that with my quotes from Jesus in post # 32. How are they different?

Glenn

[thesometimesaint]

KevinG:

We all need to repent. But I think his is more of a mote v beam complaint.

[KevinG]

Here is Section 84 verse 4: "Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation."

Now compare that with my quotes from Jesus in post # 32. How are they different?

Glenn

Aha! Joseph plagiarized Matthew as well as Isaiah! We have you sneaky Mormons trapped now!!!

[Mark Beesley]

In a previous thread I had been discussing why I believe JS was a false prophet. I gave two reasons; 1 he lead people after a different God (Deut 13:1-4) and 2) he taught a false gospel; specifically in regards to justification (Romans 4 & Galatians 1).

Before taking the time to address any of your concerns, I would want to know why you are asking. Are you willing to be convinced that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, or are you simply going to argue against every evidence you are given? That seems to be what you are doing from what I have read in this thread. If you are 100 percent convinced that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, fine. Go your way with that conviction. If you are laboring under some delusion that you have uncovered an example of a false prophecy that will shake the faith of faithful LDS on this Board, think again. Most of us have encountered this and other supposed examples of false prophecies, and somehow we come away with the testimony of the Holy Ghost intact.

That being said, I ask again, are you willing to be convinced that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and if so, what will it take to convince you?

[djholmess]

Before taking the time to address any of your concerns, I would want to know why you are asking. Are you willing to be convinced that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, or are you simply going to argue against every evidence you are given? That seems to be what you are doing from what I have read in this thread. If you are 100 percent convinced that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, fine. Go your way with that conviction. If you are laboring under some delusion that you have uncovered an example of a false prophecy that will shake the faith of faithful LDS on this Board, think again. Most of us have encountered this and other supposed examples of false prophecies, and somehow we come away with the testimony of the Holy Ghost intact.

That being said, I ask again, are you willing to be convinced that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and if so, what will it take to convince you?

I am well already fully convinced JS was a false prophet (for the two reasons I mentioned in my OP) and I have no doubt people here have heard about D&C 84. I am however relatively new to Mormonism and so wanted to know how Mormons who believe JS was a true prophet do not see D&C 84 as a false prophecy.

So far the main response(e have been a couple of ok explainations) has been an attack against Biblical prophecies rather then an explaination of why the prophecy in question is actually true-I was expecting you guys to have a good explaination rather than just changing the subject.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So far the main response(e have been a couple of ok explainations) has been an attack against Biblical prophecies rather then an explaination of why the prophecy in question is actually true-I was expecting you guys to have a good explaination rather than just changing the subject.

There in lies the rub. What you ask has everything to do with the Bible and the "failed" prophecies of the Bible. Why do you think we brought them up?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Are you interested enough to read the essay on Biblical Keys for Discerning True and False Prophets? Would it be helpful to consider Joseph Smith in light of the 27 other tests? And do you happen to have any other candidates that look better in relation to the full set of tests than does Joseph Smith?

Or say Duane Crowther's book on the Prophecies of Joseph Smith, showing over a hundred fulfilled prophecies? Do they count?

Does it matter than even within the Bible, (as I noted in a linked section) the Deut. 18 test is the most qualified test in practice, and the one most subject to abuse, even within the Bible.

• Prophets can be misunderstood (for example, John 3:18-22)
  
• Prophecy may have its fulfillment contested, either through misinformation, or cunningly devised fables. (Matthew 28:12-13)
  
• Prophecy may be distant fulfillment. (For example, 2 Peter 3:9)
  
• Prophecy may be of conditional fulfillment (Jeremiah 18:8-10)
  
• Prophets may speak their own opinion. (2 Corinthians 8:8)
  
• Prophets may even speak presumptuously on occasion. (2 Samuel 7:14)
  
• Prophets may disagree among themselves on some matters. (Acts 15:39)
  
• A prophet's words may be recorded imperfectly. (Compare Acts 9:7 and Acts 22:9)
  
• Finally, even prophets may misinterpret prophecy. (It is clear that much of the New Testament presumes an immanent return in glory, necessitating eventual warnings not to expect such.)
  
• (Overall, see Isaiah 55:11)
  

And regarding the 1832 Kirtland revelation recorded as D&C 84:

When I look at LDS history, I notice several cites were build by the gathering of saints. And it happens that the Saints did build a temple in Kirtland just a few years later, and the manifestations in the Kirtland temple were witnessed by many. It seems to me that the "this place" phrase can just as easily refer to the Kirtland location where the revelation was received, where the Saints were in fact gathering, and where they actually did built a temple where the glory of the Lord filled the house. What builds the City New Jerusalem is the gathering of the Saints, where ever they happen to be. That's a possible interpretation I think.

And of course there is the issue of conditional prophesy, or other times, of God asking people to do something that they don't get around to doing. Or even changing circumstances and changed expediencies.

Joseph Smith once remarked "a man would command his son to dig potatoes and saddle his horse, but before he had done either he would tell him to do something else. This is all considered right; but as soon as the Lord gives a commandment and revokes that decree and commands something else, then the Prophet is considered fallen."¹⁷

I have a theory that one of reasons critics are drawn to the Deuteronomy test is that the difficulties in interpreting various situations gives the critic more control over the outcome than the use of any other test. And one of the reasons that the other Biblical tests are generally neglected is that they tend to remove that control.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

DJ,

Did you miss this post? If you are at all serious you will study what Kevin has to say.

[thesometimesaint]

It is your double standard that is objectionable. You apply one standard to the Biblical Prophets, which the LDS agree are prophets even with all their failed prophecies. Then you apply a different standard to the Saints and demand that JS isn't a prophet because of your alleged failed prophecies.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

It is your double standard that is objectionable. You apply one standard to the Biblical Prophets, which the LDS agree are prophets even with all their failed prophecies. Then you apply a different standard to the Saints and demand that JS isn't a prophet because of your alleged failed prophecies.

Perhaps he will get it after enough people repeat it.

[Glenn101]

I am well already fully convinced JS was a false prophet (for the two reasons I mentioned in my OP) and I have no doubt people here have heard about D&C 84. I am however relatively new to Mormonism and so wanted to know how Mormons who believe JS was a true prophet do not see D&C 84 as a false prophecy.

So far the main response(e have been a couple of ok explainations) has been an attack against Biblical prophecies rather then an explaination of why the prophecy in question is actually true-I was expecting you guys to have a good explaination rather than just changing the subject.

We do not see Joseph Smith as a false prophet in part because of similar prophecies in the Bible that either are false prophecies, or prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled. You have yet to address the substance of the posts comparing the revelation in question to certain prophecies in the Bible. We are not attacking the Bible and its prophecies. We, or at least I, believe that those prophecies were fulfilled, or will be fulfilled, but it is evident that they were not fulfilled according to a plain reading of the text. That is why I included in one of my posts Peter's declaration that prophecies are not open to a private interpretation.

Glenn

[KevinG]

Perhaps he will get it after enough people repeat it.

Not based on history.

[KevinG]

...an attack against Biblical prophecies...

You would be more accurate in reporting an attack against poor interpretations of Biblical prophecies and non-Biblical conditions imposed upon Biblical prophecies.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

In a previous thread I had been discussing why I believe JS was a false prophet. I gave two reasons; 1 he lead people after a different God (Deut 13:1-4) and 2) he taught a false gospel; specifically in regards to justification (Romans 4 & Galatians 1).

He led us back to the true God who will save all who come unto him...not the God of Calvinism and how to be justified...try Matthew 7:21 and Galatians 5: 20-21. You could not be more wrong cherry picking Paul words...not to mention elevated his words over that of his master.