False Prophecies?

[djholmess]

In a previous thread I had been discussing why I believe JS was a false prophet. I gave two reasons; 1 he lead people after a different God (Deut 13:1-4) and 2) he taught a false gospel; specifically in regards to justification (Romans 4 & Galatians 1).

Whilst I’m not enough of an expert in Mormon history to make false prophecies a concrete reason for believing JS to be a false prophet I have come across a number of prophecies that would seem to suggest he was. I’m interested to know what LDS make of these prophecies and how they think they were fulfilled?

In Deuteronomy 18 we read:

²⁰ But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

²¹ And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?

²² When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

It seems that someone who claims to speak a prophecy in the name of the Lord, yet the prophecy does not come to pass was to be put to death; that would likely qualify such a prophet as a false prophet.

Prophecy 1:

D&C 84:1-5

1 A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.

2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.

3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.

4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.

5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

This revelation that Joseph gave seems to claim;

1) it is from Jesus.

2) a temple lot had been set aside for the building of a temple.

3) a temple would be built within the generation of the hearers of the prophecy.

4) a city would be built around the city.

As far as I know no temple was built on this lot, to date a temple has yet to be built on this lot and the LDS church does not own the plot of land. How do you see this prophecy as being fulfilled or was this prophecy never fulfilled?

[Kevin Christensen]

For a much more detailed approach, see Biblical Keys for Discerning True and False Prophets:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets

Regarding the issue of a Joseph leading people after a different God, see:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Considering_Joseph_Smith/Abuse_of_a_Bible_test

Regarding the use and misuse of the tests regarding fulfillment of prophesy:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Tests/Prophecy

I take it as a general Mote-Eye rule consideration that any application of the unfullfilled prophecy approach that would also require me to reject Biblical prophets cannot be the correct application of the test. If that seems a little fuzzy, I find compensation in the fact that there are 27 other tests for prophets and their helpfulness more than compensates.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[altersteve]

This revelation [D&C 84] that Joseph gave seems to claim;

1) it is from Jesus.

2) a temple lot had been set aside for the building of a temple.

3) a temple would be built within the generation of the hearers of the prophecy.

4) a city would be built around the city.

As far as I know no temple was built on this lot, to date a temple has yet to be built on this lot and the LDS church does not own the plot of land. How do you see this prophecy as being fulfilled or was this prophecy never fulfilled?

To me, the part of this revelation which could be considered "prophetic" is verse 5, which says that a House of the Lord (notice that it doesn't have to be the one mentioned previously) will be built in that generation. This clearly occurred (see: Nauvoo Temple). But I think it's more likely that the entire thing is a commandment, not a prophecy, that the temple would be built in Independence, and the Saints failed to make this happen. This is made clear by the usage of the word "shall" in verses 3–5, which signifies a commandment (consistent with the 1828 Webster's definition of the word). You are also applying a double standard, since the word "generation" and other similar terms are rarely used literally in biblical prophecies.

Next?

[Storm Rider]

If we will use a standard for Joseph Smith, then we must use it for every other prophet or apostle. The early apostles were adamant that Jesus was returning a 2nd time and they would see the end of the world. Obviously, that did not happen. Are you prepared to use this standard you are interpreting from scripture and condemn the early apostles as false prophets? If you are going to a critic, you will be forced to live by the same sword you use to attack other belief systems.

I am not against being a critic; I am against those who create a standard and then don't apply it to their own belief system. Religious people always seem to forget they live in a glass house.

Kevin's response above is the one that should be reviewed in more depth.

[altersteve]

By the way, I have to ask this. Why on earth do you think the Church would canonize a false prophecy? That makes no sense to me at all.

[djholmess]

If we will use a standard for Joseph Smith, then we must use it for every other prophet or apostle. The early apostles were adamant that Jesus was returning a 2nd time and they would see the end of the world. Obviously, that did not happen. Are you prepared to use this standard you are interpreting from scripture and condemn the early apostles as false prophets? If you are going to a critic, you will be forced to live by the same sword you use to attack other belief systems.

I am not against being a critic; I am against those who create a standard and then don't apply it to their own belief system. Religious people always seem to forget they live in a glass house.

So do you have an example of one of the early apostles saying such a specific statement like 'I will live to see the second coming of Jesus'? I'm not aware of any statement by an apostle saying such a thing. Further JS clearly introduced D&C84:1-5 with a statement meant to show that what he was saying was a prophecy from Jesus, then what is revealled is a prediction about something that was to happen.

[altersteve]

Further JS clearly introduced D&C84:1-5 with a statement meant to show that what he was saying was a prophecy from Jesus, then what is revealled is a prediction about something that was to happen.

No, he said it was a revelation from Jesus. He didn't say prophecy.

[Storm Rider]

So do you have an example of one of the early apostles saying such a specific statement like 'I will live to see the second coming of Jesus'? I'm not aware of any statement by an apostle saying such a thing. Further JS clearly introduced D&C84:1-5 with a statement meant to show that what he was saying was a prophecy from Jesus, then what is revealled is a prediction about something that was to happen.

Are you saying that the early apostles did not believe that Jesus' return was not imminent? This is rather basic theological thought; would you like references because you are not aware of scholarly statements of the last several hundred years or are you thinking that because an apostle did not say, "I prophesy that Jesus will return in two years"; they all get a pass for thinking his return was imminent, but did not occur?

[djholmess]

To me, the part of this revelation which could be considered "prophetic" is verse 5, which says that a House of the Lord (notice that it doesn't have to be the one mentioned previously) will be built in that generation. This clearly occurred (see: Nauvoo Temple).

It seems like that would be quite a stretch of the text to say the temple mentioned in verse 4 as being “reared in this generation” is different to the house of the Lord in verse 5 which “this generation shall not pass away” until it was built. In both verses we have something being built/reared, we have a specific generation who will be alive when it is done and the terms ‘temple’ and ‘house of the lord’ are already closely connected terms.

It would also ignore the ‘for’ at the beginning of verse 5 which provides a clear grammatical connection between verses 4 and 5.

You are also applying a double standard, since the word "generation" and other similar terms are rarely used literally in biblical prophecies.

Actually I don’t think I am, can you show me a instance where the term “this generation” is used in biblical prophecies where it doesn’t mean something like “this generation alive today”?

I have also found a couple of quotes from church leaders (apostles) from that generation that clearly understood the prophecy to refer to their generation:

From the day that God established this Church to the present the stream of revelation has continued to flow uninterruptedly. It flows pure for us to drink at until we are filled to repletion; and if we do not drink, it is our own fault. The servants of God are not to blame, for they have been laboring by day and by night, from the beginning, with us, as a people, to prepare us for the great things that are at our very doors, and that God intends to perform in this generation. I feel the importance of this, probably not as much as I ought, and wish to do; nevertheless, when I see the great events that are taking place at this time among the nations -- when I view the destiny that awaits us as a people, and the great things God has in store for us, I almost feel as though I was a laggard on the path, and too slow entirely for the great events that are coming upon the earth. The day is near when a Temple shall be reared in the Center Stake of Zion, and the Lord has said his glory shall rest on that House in this generation, that is in the generation in which the revelation was given, which is upwards of thirty years ago. How much are we prepared for this? We talk about it, sing about it, and delight to dwell upon it; but are we prepared for this great manifestation of glory in our midst? (Elder George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, l0/23/1864, 10:344)

that is, that they should continue to gather, but not let their flight be in haste, and let all things be prepared before them. God led forth the Prophet that He had raised up to the western part of Missouri, and pointed out, by His own finger, where the great city of Zion should stand in the latter days, the great city of the New Jerusalem that should be built up on the American continent. I say He pointed out these things and gave direction to His people to gather to that land, and commanded them to lay the corner stone of a great and magnificent temple that was to be built during the generation in which the people then lived. The corner stone was laid in the summer of 1831, in Jackson County, State of Missouri. All these things were done by commandment and revelation, and in this way they still further showed, one to another and to all people as well as to the heavens, that they did love the Lord their God.

God has been with us from the time that we came to this land, and I hope that the days of our tribulations are past. I hope this, because God promised in the year 1832 that we should, before the generation then living had passed away, return and build up the City of Zion in Jackson County; that we should return and build up the temple of the Most High where we formerly laid the corner stone. He promised us that He would manifest Himself on that temple, that the glory of God should be upon it; and not only upon the temple, but within it, even a cloud by day and a flaming fire by night.

We believe in these promises as much as we believe in any promise ever uttered by the mouth of Jehovah. The Latter-day Saints just as much expect to receive a fulfilment of that promise during the generation that was in existence in 1832 as they expect that the sun will rise and set to-morrow. Why? Because God cannot lie. He will fulfill all His promises. He has spoken, it must come to pass. This is our faith. (Elder Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, 5/5/1870, 13:360, 362)

The natural and simple face value reading of D&C 84:1-5 would suggest that Smith was making a prophecy that the temple would be constructed within the generation that was alive at the time of his prophecy. The two above quotes show that even after moving west the LDS apostles who were part of that generation seen the promise as a promise made to their specific generation that God was yet going to fulfil before they died.

Is there any evidence that other members of the generation that received the prophecy did not actually think it applied to them?

[thesometimesaint]

Luke 21:28-32

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your ^aredemption draweth nigh.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the ^afig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation ^ashall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

[Antoni]

1 Thessalonians is adamant that the Lord is returning soon.

2 Thessalonians is basically the author making adjustment to that earlier idea.

[altersteve]

It seems like that would be quite a stretch of the text to say the temple mentioned in verse 4 as being “reared in this generation” is different to the house of the Lord in verse 5 which “this generation shall not pass away” until it was built. In both verses we have something being built/reared, we have a specific generation who will be alive when it is done and the terms ‘temple’ and ‘house of the lord’ are already closely connected terms.

It would also ignore the ‘for’ at the beginning of verse 5 which provides a clear grammatical connection between verses 4 and 5.

You're ignoring what I said about this revelation being a commandment instead of a prophecy.

Actually I don’t think I am, can you show me a instance where the term “this generation” is used in biblical prophecies where it doesn’t mean something like “this generation alive today”?

You think Jesus meant "this generation alive today" when He talked about how the signs preceding the Second Coming would all be fulfilled prior to the passing away of "this generation" (Matthew 24:34)?

The natural and simple face value reading of D&C 84:1-5 would suggest that Smith was making a prophecy that the temple would be constructed within the generation that was alive at the time of his prophecy. The two above quotes show that even after moving west the LDS apostles who were part of that generation seen the promise as a promise made to their specific generation that God was yet going to fulfil before they died.

And this came true. The Nauvoo Temple was constructed within the generation that was alive at the time that this revelation was given.

Is there any evidence that other members of the generation that received the prophecy did not actually think it applied to them?

Don't know, don't care. I read the text for what it actually says, and it says that within that generation, a temple would be built. This occurred. This promise was fulfilled.

Read: http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Alleged_false_prophecies/Independence_temple_to_be_built_%22in_this_generation%22

Edited September 5, 2012 by altersteve

[djholmess]

Are you saying that the early apostles did not believe that Jesus' return was not imminent? This is rather basic theological thought; would you like references because you are not aware of scholarly statements of the last several hundred years or are you thinking that because an apostle did not say, "I prophesy that Jesus will return in two years"; they all get a pass for thinking his return was imminent, but did not occur?

The Apostles did believe Jesus return was imminent but that does not mean they thought or said 'it will definitely happen within 2 years.' There is a vast difference between saying 'Jesus may return at any moment' and saying 'Jesus must return before I die"

I believe Jesus return is imminent; it may happen within the next few years or decades yet I do not believe it must happen within that time frame. Jesus in Matthew 24-25 presented the time of his return as something that no one knows, yet as something that can happen suddenly. There is a tension between these two aspects of Jesus return but it is a tension I do not see the apostles breaking. No where did they say 'I know Jesus will definitely return before such and such a date' yet they did say 'it is imminent; it could happen any time.'

In fact in Matthew 24-25 Jesus specifically gives teaching on how his disciples are to wait for his return - always in a state of readiness. The Apostles teaching simply reflects this necessity that Jesus disciples always be ready for his return because it could happen at any time; Jesus return is always imminent.

I don’t see how Jesus return which Jesus himself specifically said no one but God knows the time is comparable to a prophecy given by JS specifically giving a timeframe within which the prophecy would be fulfilled.

[altersteve]

I don’t see how Jesus return which Jesus himself specifically said no one but God knows the time is comparable to a prophecy given by JS specifically giving a timeframe within which the prophecy would be fulfilled.

If you're talking about what Joseph said in D&C 130, you may want to re-read that a bit more carefully. Joseph did not know when Christ would return, by his own admission in the very same passage.

[djholmess]

Don't know, don't care. I read the text for what it actually says, and it says that within that generation, a temple would be built. This occurred. This promise was fulfilled.

So in my seeking to understand JS prophecies I am to take your word for what it means rather than the word of Apostles of the LDS church who were alive at the time the prophecy was given?

Connecting the Navoo Temple with this prophecy rests on the assumption that the temple in verse 4 is different from the 'house of the lord' in verse 5. If they are the same then the navoo temple can't be the temple talked about because it wasn't built where JS said it would be. Further you are aware that verse 4 also states that the temple to be built on the temple lot would be "reared in this generation"

Obviously as LDS you would never accept/admit JS made a false prophecy but can't you see how to an outsider that is exactly what it looks like given 1) the plain language of the prophecy and 2) the way it was understood by LDS church leaders of the time?

[djholmess]

If you're talking about what Joseph said in D&C 130, you may want to re-read that a bit more carefully. Joseph did not know when Christ would return, by his own admission in the very same passage.

I wasn't - I was replying to Stormrider and his discussion about the NT Apostles

[djholmess]

You think Jesus meant "this generation alive today" when He talked about how the signs preceding the Second Coming would all be fulfilled prior to the passing away of "this generation" (Matthew 24:34)?

Yes, all the signs were fufilled within the generation alive when Jesus spoke, hence the imminency of Christs return. But even if he meant 'this dispensation' or 'this age' I have yet to see any evidence that JS really meant 'age'. As I quoted above LDS Apostles understood him to mean what we would typically expect generation to mean 'this generation alive today".

[Tacenda]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prophecies_of_Joseph_Smith

Some have come true and some not....

[djholmess]

http://en.wikipedia....of_Joseph_Smith

Some have come true and some not....

I am aware that some have come true. However as a bible believeing Christian I must test JS by scrupture and as I quoted above Deut 18 doesn't seem to leave any room for a single false prophecy/revelation. Hence why I'm intrested to find out why some Mormons hold JS to be a true prophet in light of D&C 84.

[Tacenda]

I am aware that some have come true. However as a bible believeing Christian I must test JS by scrupture and as I quoted above Deut 18 doesn't seem to leave any room for a single false prophecy/revelation. Hence why I'm intrested to find out why some Mormons hold JS to be a true prophet in light of D&C 84.

I'm a dumb dumb when it comes to the bible, would you mention some of the true prophets that prophesied and every one came to fruition?

[thesometimesaint]

There are cases where the Bible makes very specific prophecies but to no surprise these are the ones that have failed:

Isaiah 17:1 “An oracle concerning Damascus: See, Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a heap of ruins.”

FAIL: Damascus is still inhabited today with well over a million people and there was never a time where it ceased to be a city. It is widely known as being the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world.

Isaiah 19:4-5 “I will hand the Egyptians over to the power of a cruel master, and a fierce king will rule over them, declares the Lord, the LORD Almighty. The waters of the river will dry up, and the riverbed will be parched and dry.”

FAIL: The river mentioned here is the Nile which never dried up and is still one of Egypt’s greatest natural resource.

Isaiah 52:1 “Awake, awake, O Zion, clothe yourself with strength. Put on your garments of splendor, O Jerusalem, the holy city. The uncircumcised and defiled will not enter you again.”

FAIL: There are still uncircumcised people living in Jerusalem even today.

Ezekiel 30:10-11 “This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will put an end to the hordes of Egypt by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his army – the most ruthless of nations – will be brought in to destroy the land. They will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain.”

FAIL: Ezekiel predicts that Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon will conquer Egypt utterly destroying it, slaying and scattering its people. In 568 BCE Nebuchadnezzar tried to conquer Egypt and Egypt survived with no apparent damage. Aahmes ruled for another generation over a prosperous Egypt and lived to see Nebuchadnezzar die. The Egyptians were not scattered or dispersed.

Ezekiel 29:10-11 “therefore I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush. The foot of neither man nor beast will pass through it; no one will live there for forty years.”

FAIL: Never in its long history has Egypt been uninhabited for forty years.

Matthew 16:28 “I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” 23:36 “I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.” 24:34 “I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.”

FAIL: Jesus states in Matthew that all the signs marking the end of the world would be fulfilled before his generation ended, before the people that were standing infront of him “taste death.” Those people have been dead for over 2000 years and the world did not come to an end, neither have all those signs been fulfilled.

Many thanks to our friends at Truth Saves for these little gems

[djholmess]

There are cases where the Bible makes very specific prophecies but to no surprise these are the ones that have failed:

Isaiah 17:1 “An oracle concerning Damascus: See, Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a heap of ruins.”

FAIL: Damascus is still inhabited today with well over a million people and there was never a time where it ceased to be a city. It is widely known as being the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world.

So are you trying to say 'the bible has false prophecies therefore it's ok for JS to have made one'?

[Tacenda]

So are you trying to say 'the bible has false prophecies therefore it's ok for JS to have made one'?

I'm not quite a defender of the church, I just asked a question and "the sometimes saint" came up with these. I'd think the same standards applied to the bible could be applied to Joseph Smith.

[volgadon]

So are you trying to say 'the bible has false prophecies therefore it's ok for JS to have made one'?

He seems to be saying that you can't condemn JS and apply a different standard to the Bible.

[Antoni]

So are you trying to say 'the bible has false prophecies therefore it's ok for JS to have made one'?

No I don't think that is what he is saying.

you mention earlier that you're a "bible believing chrisitian" he's pointed out various prophecies in the bible that have failed to come true. Using your yard stick , Isaiah, Ezekial and Jesus all fail as prophets.