Has The Church'S View Of Grace/Works Changed?

[wenglund]

Works don't pay the debt.

And, to me, salvation isn't just about debt. It is also about spiritual solvency--which solvency comes, in part, by works.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[spartacus]

Again, I think the crux of the issue for non-LDS is in the ordinances and the actions required to be allowed to do the ordinances (belief in Joseph Smith, the LDS Church, Christ, initial repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy Spirit, continued repentance/sacrament, Sabbath, Church attendance, callings, priesthood, tithing, Word of Wisdom, etc.).. If the ordinances are necessary for true (full) salvation, i.e.- returning to live with the Father/eternal life, then the ordinances and the actions required to qualify to do those ordinances are "works" in the "bad sense"- that of earning your place with God.

Many, if not all of the posters here, seem to be thinking of good works (including ordinances?-no one seems to be speaking of these directly) as the PROCESS of salvation (with or without the empowerment of Grace/Holy Spirit- though I'll assume everyone is thinking its with this) as the natural outcome of having the Holy Spirit and the technically necessary but still natural (or "guaranteed"?) result of receiving the Spirit, which, with the Atonement, all leads finally in one's preparedness and entrance into the Celestial Kingdom, the presence of Heavenly Father, and, possibly, eternal progress/increase. This all sounds like the dependence on God that traditional Christians are looking for, however, it seems that LDS not only believe that one can lose the Spirit and thus salvation, but participate in the keeping of the Spirit and salvation in a stronger sense than simply "not walking away". So the issue never seems fully divulged from the LDS view and thus never understood by others, and ample opportunity is left for concern about "earning" works - aka "bad" good works.

Another aspect of all this, and in apparent opposition to the posts here as I described above, are the writings of LDS Church leaders from the past. I believe it was Talmage that wrote about absolute repentance being required for salvation. Whether it is Talmage or not, there is someone who writes very strongly about perfection in THIS life BEFORE salvation without an explicit statement that this is brought about by the power of God or guaranteed in any way by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. It seems to be a description of "our part" of the covenant. Statements of totality are also found in Gospel Principles and talks of other leaders.

In the end, LDS seem to believe that Grace is EMPOWERMENT to be able to achieve salvation (see Dictionary definitions of grace again). They believe this OPPORTUNITY to return to Heavenly Father was gracefully won by Christ's sacrifice. And, again, the practical change of our being (sanctification) is conflated with our spiritual relationship with Heavenly Father (salvation), such that salvation is not attained (earned?) until sanctification (works) are completed. While traditional Christians believe that Grace is the IMMEDIATE Gift of Salvation received upon faithful acceptance of Christ's sacrifice and resurrection, believing that in His sacrifice we are made innocent of all sins (not just past as Wade Englund stated) and that in His resurrection and return to the Father, we too will do the same based on His merit alone. Here Being Born Again is the immediate change in one's spirit that eventually leads to change in one's life (sanctification) which is simply a natural fruit of a branch in the Vine. LDS seem to view Being Born Again as a process over a lifetime = sanctification. This leads to all types of differences between LDS and traditional Christians:

-baptism becomes a necessary work as part of the sanctification process necessary for admittance to the Celestial Kingdom VS. baptism being a physical representation of the believer's identification with, and acceptance of, Christ's sacrifice, death, and resurrection

-acceptance of Christ is the start of the process VS. acceptance of Christ is the fulfillment of salvation

-similarly works of all kinds become part of the process of eventually attaining salvation VS. good works being the result of being saved in Christ (being in the Vine)

-Being in the Vine = being a member of Christ's Church providing the opportunity to produce fruit (works) that LEAD TO salvation vs. Being in Christ and so BEING saved, righteous and in rightstanding with the Father as Christ is righteous and in rightstanding with the Father. Being in the Vine is being in the Church with the opportunity to produce necessary fruit for salvation vs. Being in the Vine is Being in Righteousness before God and producing fruit as naturally as a branch that is ACTUALLY IN the Vine.

I am sure that many, if not all, might claim that these comparisons are not accurate. However, I do not think you can accurately claim them to be semantic: you are either saved by Christ's merit alone or by His merit and your and His Spirit's works over a lifetime, you are either saved IMMEDIATELY or eventually depending on the results of your liftetime, Spirit-empowered good works are either natural outcomes of already being saved or necessary practical transformation over a lifetime which is just as necessary as Christ's Atonement.

These differences seem real. When you only consider the terms "works" and "grace" it can seem confusing and semantic, but, connecting them with real life examples of works (ordinances and gospel living) and with salvation and its character of completion, it seems clear that there is definitely differences to be discussed and evaluated for each individual to consider and, hopefully, for the LDS Church leadership to clarify for the membership.

Edited July 13, 2012 by spartacus

[mfbukowski]

Just do your VERY best and you won't have to worry about it.

Why would you NOT want to do your best anyway? That becomes the question. We all want to play around and get something for free- that is the entire problem.

[DBMormon]

No one does their best.... We should try but people should not feel depressed and discouraged and hopeless becasue they feel they are not meeting a standard that does not exist as they understand it.

We each make mistakes and can always do better. We need to help people see that our obligation is to try and try hard to follow the gospel and it's commandments. We need to be determined and have a desire to do all. But in the end we should not make people feel like their is some line that must be met in good works and way too many LDS see thier Salvation as a Works Righteousness.

Edited July 14, 2012 by DBMormon

[ERayR]

Jesus saves you. But you have to believe and you have to try. Take one of the three elements (The Atonement of Christ, Faith and Works) away, and you will find yourself in out in the cold.

Works is how faith is expressed. If one has faith one will also have works, of some sort. Faith is what allows grace to work in our lives.

[thesometimesaint]

While no one can work their way into Heaven doing nothing won't work either.

[Damien the Leper]

While no one can work their way into Heaven doing nothing won't work either.

Scripture does speak ill of complacency. I agree...complacent faith is worthless and useless faith.

[CASteinman]

Works is how faith is expressed. If one has faith one will also have works, of some sort. Faith is what allows grace to work in our lives.

Works is also what produces Faith.

[ERayR]

Works is also what produces Faith.

I'm not sure I can agree with that. I think it is the other way around Faith produces works. Without faith works would not happen.

[CASteinman]

I'm not sure I can agree with that. I think it is the other way around Faith produces works. Without faith works would not happen.

Jesus said, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

Alma teaches about planting a seed (a work) and observing the fruit -- which then makes Faith Grow.

Faith vs Works is a false dichotomy. They are two sides of the same sheet of paper. No matter how thin the paper, the two sides will remain. You cannot really have one without the other. But, you can avoid turning the paper over -- and ignore what is on the other side, if you are so inclined. That would lead directly to error.

Edited July 13, 2012 by CASteinman

[ERayR]

Jesus said, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

Alma teaches about planting a seed (a work) and observing the fruit -- which then makes Faith Grow.

Faith vs Works is a false dichotomy. They are two sides of the same sheet of paper. No matter how thin the paper, the two sides will remain. You cannot really have one without the other. But, you can avoid turning the paper over -- and ignore what is on the other side, if you are so inclined. That would lead directly to error.

"If any man will do his will,..." to do something suggests that there is faith that there will be a favorable outcome or else we would do nothing.

The act of planting a seed requires faith that the seed will produce. We can hope but until we can generate that tiny spark of faith we are not going to act.

Just the way i see it from my side of the fence.

Edited July 13, 2012 by ERayR

[CASteinman]

"If any man will do his will,..." to do something suggests that there is faith that there will be a favorable outcome or else we would do nothing.

Of course. They are intertwined. But in that case, the works came first. You first DID then you came to KNOW of the doctrine. Not the other way around.

The act of planting a seed requires faith that the seed will produce. We can hope but until we can generate that tiny spark of faith we are not going to act.

Actually no, planting the seed does not require the faith that the seed will produce. Do you not recall that in the parable it is only after seeing the seed grow that the planter learns that it is a good seed? Prior to that, he did not know.

Faith and Works are intertwined. They are like Quarks in a Proton. We talk of up and down quarks but just try to make an all up quark soup. You can't do it. You need the down as well.

Edited July 14, 2012 by CASteinman

[JDave]

Much of the confusion and heartache comes from emphasizing what we we are DOING over what we are BECOMING. If you are doing something Christlike for un-Christlike reasons, you are not becoming more Christlike. This gospel is all about becoming, though it takes some doing to get there so we need some emphasis on doing.

The idea of trying our hardest, or doing our best, has much more to do with the sincerity of our effort than it does with the effectiveness or correctness of the effort.

There is some great truth to what mfbukowski said. If you are not striving to do your best, what are you striving to do? It is a question of goals and intent, though, not of accounting for past actions. Perfection is a similar beast. We are commanded to be perfect, so that is what we strive for. If you aren't striving for perfection, exactly how far below perfection is your aim set? Yet in the same breath we know that perfection is the goal and the intent, not the required end result of all our actions. I don't have time to flesh it out more or state it better, but you get the idea hopefully.

[Calm]

I believe the seed which is faith is a gift from the Lord and is where it all starts, after having received it then it is our choice to nourish or neglect it which is a work. So my opinion is for us, it starts with faith but everything thereafter requires both, work in order for faith to grow, faith in order to have something to work on.

[CASteinman]

I believe the seed which is faith is a gift from the Lord and is where it all starts, after having received it then it is our choice to nourish or neglect it which is a work. So my opinion is for us, it starts with faith but everything thereafter requires both, work in order for faith to grow, faith in order to have something to work on.

And I believe the base is Hope. Not Faith. We must have at least a tiny bit of hope -- a desire that something might be true or a desire to know that something is true.

[ERayR]

And I believe the base is Hope. Not Faith. We must have at least a tiny bit of hope -- a desire that something might be true or a desire to know that something is true.

And I believe it is faith that gives us hope. The tiniest bit of faith can give us the hope to continue and build.

[CASteinman]

And I believe it is faith that gives us hope. The tiniest bit of faith can give us the hope to continue and build.

Not according to Alma 32 where we see that it is possible for someone to have "disbelief" and yet still conduct an experiment which will then -- later -- lead to faith. A person does not need to have faith in God or even in the "seed" being planted. All they have to do is have a "desire to believe" (not belief -- but only a desire -- a hope to believe) sufficient to not cast the seed out and sufficient to at least try it.

This is the way to be able to teach the faithless and the doubtful -- those without faith -- how to develop it. But they must start with at least a desire or a hope that it would be worth their while.

[DBMormon]

Much of the confusion and heartache comes from emphasizing what we we are DOING over what we are BECOMING. If you are doing something Christlike for un-Christlike reasons, you are not becoming more Christlike. This gospel is all about becoming, though it takes some doing to get there so we need some emphasis on doing.

The idea of trying our hardest, or doing our best, has much more to do with the sincerity of our effort than it does with the effectiveness or correctness of the effort.

There is some great truth to what mfbukowski said. If you are not striving to do your best, what are you striving to do? It is a question of goals and intent, though, not of accounting for past actions. Perfection is a similar beast. We are commanded to be perfect, so that is what we strive for. If you aren't striving for perfection, exactly how far below perfection is your aim set? Yet in the same breath we know that perfection is the goal and the intent, not the required end result of all our actions. I don't have time to flesh it out more or state it better, but you get the idea hopefully.

I really liked the way you said this and I agree...

+ 1 rep points

[spartacus]

I hear a whole lot of talk about faith and works but no context. No one argues about whether faith and works are related or that where faith is, there are works. CASteinman is arguing for a particular case of where works are, there comes faith, but there's so much more and more important issues than chicken/egg talk.... Obviously, the exercise of faith (which is good works) leads to greater or stronger faith which leads to greater good works. The issue isn't just about how they relate to each other but what they do - each in itself and both together - in relation to sanctification and salvation, and where there is obvious error and obvious truth in their relation and purpose toward each of these.

I think there were posts earlier that dealt more with this larger context but it seems like we are getting bogged down.

Anyone care to get into some specifics about why works/faith are actually important? in regards to the Gospel - sanctification, salvation, etc? And for the OP, we can discuss if this larger context is different today in the LDS Church than it was 30 years ago, 100 years ago, etc.?

[CASteinman]

I hear a whole lot of talk about faith and works but no context. No one argues about whether faith and works are related or that where faith is, there are works. CASteinman is arguing for a particular case of where works are, there comes faith, but there's so much more and more important issues than chicken/egg talk.... Obviously, the exercise of faith (which is good works) leads to greater or stronger faith which leads to greater good works. The issue isn't just about how they relate to each other but what they do - each in itself and both together - in relation to sanctification and salvation, and where there is obvious error and obvious truth in their relation and purpose toward each of these.

I think there were posts earlier that dealt more with this larger context but it seems like we are getting bogged down.

Anyone care to get into some specifics about why works/faith are actually important? in regards to the Gospel - sanctification, salvation, etc? And for the OP, we can discuss if this larger context is different today in the LDS Church than it was 30 years ago, 100 years ago, etc.?

Just two points:

1. I sort of agree with you that we might be off track, but the original post was more technical in nature than what you are driving at. But...Your questions are better questions in my mind.

2 If you get the impression that I was in any way arguing for a chicken vs egg approach or that I think some technical discussion about how they relate to one another is not directly associated with larger implications, then you have misunderstood me. I think that their relationship is both fundamental and eternal and pertains to "lives everlasting". That is part of the reason I hold to my view -- it is not a mere technical relationship matter.

[WalkerW]

I actually held an interfaith dialogue at the local Institute building a couple years ago on the topic of faith/grace/works in Mormonism and Reformed theology. My Reformed friend and I each took time articulating our theological position, asked each other clarifying questions, then took questions from the audience. The formally written version of my presentation can be found here. I had a number of contributors on this board review it prior to the dialogue, all of which are recognized prior to my references.

[wenglund]

Works is also what produces Faith.

Yes....too often the reciprocity between faith and works, and rightly viewing faith as a growth process rather than just an event, is not factored into the grace/works debate, thus ignoring the value of works to salvation (in the broader sense of the word).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited July 16, 2012 by wenglund

[Tacenda]

I actually held an interfaith dialogue at the local Institute building a couple years ago on the topic of faith/grace/works in Mormonism and Reformed theology. My Reformed friend and I each took time articulating our theological position, asked each other clarifying questions, then took questions from the audience. The formally written version of my presentation can be found here. I had a number of contributors on this board review it prior to the dialogue, all of which are recognized prior to my references.

"For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled unto God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23).

I wish the bolded part could be: and we do all we can because of that "grace".

[BCSpace]

Are there distinct differences or are these two definitons saying the same thing?

No difference whatsoever. Additionally, both would be doctrine since both are officially published except that the Bible Dictionary has a disclaimer in the introduction about it's not being used for doctrine in case that helps people who have trouble with nuances. But how anyone can quibble over "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" is beyond me.

2 Nephi 25:23. The Doctrine of Grace

• Grace refers to divine help or strength, given

through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus

Christ. “It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made

possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be

raised in immortality, every person receiving his body

from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is

likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals,

through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and

repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance

to do good works that they otherwise would not be

able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace

is an enabling power that allows men and women to

lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have

expended their own best efforts.

“Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence

of the fall of Adam and also because of man’s

weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot

suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient.

Hence the explanation, ‘It is by grace that we are

saved, after all we can do’ (2 Ne. 25:23). It is truly the

grace of Jesus Christ that makes salvation possible.

This principle is expressed in Jesus’ parable of the

vine and the branches ( John 15:1–11). See also John

1:12–17; Eph. 2:8–9; Philip. 4:13; D&C 93:11–14)” (Bible

Dictionary, “Grace,” 697).

• Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve

Apostles discussed the effects of grace and how grace

is an important doctrine for members of The Church of

Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:

“Some Christians accuse Latter-day Saints . . . of

denying the grace of God through claiming they can

earn their own salvation. We answer this accusation

with the words of two Book of Mormon prophets.

Nephi taught, ‘For we labor diligently . . . to persuade

our children . . . to believe in Christ, and to be

reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace

that we are saved, after all we can do’ (2 Nephi

25:23). And what is ‘all we can do’? It surely includes

repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping

the commandments, and enduring to the end.

Moroni pleaded, ‘Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in

him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if

ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love

God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his

grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be

perfect in Christ’ (Moroni 10:32).

“We are not saved in our sins, as by being unconditionally

saved through confessing Christ and then,

inevitably, committing sins in our remaining lives (see

Alma 11:36–37). We are saved from our sins (see

Helaman 5:10) by a weekly renewal of our repentance

and cleansing through the grace of God and His blessed

plan of salvation (see 3 Nephi 9:20–22)” (in Conference

Report, Apr. 1998, 77; or Ensign, May 1998, 56).

http://institute.lds.org/courses/the-book-of-mormon.asp

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

"For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled unto God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23).

I wish the bolded part could be: and we do all we can because of that "grace".

That would be false doctrine. That is why it is not in there.