Has The Church'S View Of Grace/Works Changed?

[Lightbearer]

The grace of God, grace that gives the person the ability to have faith, hence why I quoted the verses in (what I think was) my first post above. Faith and repentance themselves are a gift; they are the result of being born again by the grace of God.

What exactly is the deciding factor of a person being born again by the grace of God? What makes one person receive grace and another reject it? The interesting thing is that the Lord gave us our agency to act and not be acted upon. So the determining factor of salvation in Mormonism is our own agency. It determines if we respond to the spirit of God or stay as a natural man. But it is a choice, we are not God's puppets, we are enticed by the one or the other and we must choose. It is true that by the grace of God, we are each given this agency as is taught in the Book of Mormon:

"And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given. Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself." (Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 2:26-27)

To me that is why obedience it essential to our salvation, and without the atonement of Christ none of this would be possible, no agency, no obedience, nothing. In fact another teaching from the Book of Mormon also clarifies our position:

"For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father." (Book of Mormon | Mosiah 3:19)

Being submissive is the same as being obedient and that is the whole point of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, changing our nature into an obedient son or daughter of God. That is what true salvation and exaltation is, to become holy as He is holy. A little more on obedience and how it seals us Christ's:

"And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters. And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives. And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ. And now it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall not take upon him the name of Christ must be called by some other name; therefore, he findeth himself on the left hand of God. And I would that ye should remember also, that this is the name that I said I should give unto you that never should be blotted out, except it be through transgression; therefore, take heed that ye do not transgress, that the name be not blotted out of your hearts. I say unto you, I would that ye should remember to retain the name written always in your hearts, that ye are not found on the left hand of God, but that ye hear and know the voice by which ye shall be called, and also, the name by which he shall call you. For how knoweth a man the master whom he has not served, and who is a stranger unto him, and is far from the thoughts and intents of his heart?" (Book of Mormon | Mosiah 5:7-13)

so you see if we do not continue in faith, if we do not serve God to the end, then this name will not be in our hearts. We must continue to obey Christ or we do not continue to receive of His grace. Our salvation is through the atonement of Christ but our status depends on our faithfulness to Him in following Him and doing those things He commands us to do. We must continue to say: "not my will but thy will be done" in our effort to walk that strait and narrow path that leads to eternal life. The following makes it pretty clear what we believe regarding our salvation:

"And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved. Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive. And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life." (Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 31:15-20)

There is no boasting in our own strength here, no earning our own salvation, but following Christ with full purpose of heart and being faithful to Him in all things. This is what Mormonism is all about. i hope this helps.

[djholmess]

So, the individual has NO CHOICE in the matter?

Why does Peter claim that God gave repentance to (all of ) Israel?

Acts 5: 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Does that mean ALL of Israel are saved because God gave them repentance?

I don't have time to reply to everything all you guys are bringing up, but in short to the above the passage says to Israel, not ALL Israel. But again, it does say give not just call Israel to repentance.

[CASteinman]

I rack my brain to think of a doctrine that is more destructive to hope than Calvinism. And I consider hope to be the very bottom, the most fundamental thing -- where any possibility of salvation must start.

When hope is destroyed then, as they say "all hope is lost". Dreadful. Dismal. Dark.

[djholmess]

Parse and interpret it in whatever you wish. However, there is no denying the similarity in phraseology between Heb. 5:9 and the 3rd Article of faith. With both, our obedience is clearly a factor in our salvation.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Similarity kind of, equivalency no.

Hebrews 5:9

⁸Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

⁹ And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So all this verse is really saying is Jesus became the author of eternal salvation and that this eternal salvation is given to all that obey him.

Notice two things 1) I doesn’t say what obedience this is referring to...is it everything Jesus every commanded? Or maybe something more specific like Jesus command to repent and believe?

2) It doesn’t specifically say that this eternal salvation is gained by obeying Jesus, just that the people who receive it are people who obey him.

Article 3

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Article 3 does give the specific relationship between how all making may be saved. All mankind are saved through the atonement by obeying the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

[djholmess]

I would find it very intresting to walk through Romans 3 & 4 and try and understand how you guys intrepret Paul within his own context. I guess that's not really feasable though. Does anyone know of somewhere were I could find a LDS exegesis of those chapters?

[Vance]

I find it interesting that Calvinist believe,

1) God chooses who is saved and who isn't.

2) All the ones that accept Calvinism just happen to be the ones God has already chosen.

3) All the ones that reject Calvinism just happen to be the ones God has already rejected.

So, if one who God has rejected accepts Calvinism, does God change His mind? If not, why do Calvinist care about being right?

[Vance]

I would find it very intresting to walk through Romans 3 & 4 and try and understand how you guys intrepret Paul within his own context. I guess that's not really feasable though. Does anyone know of somewhere were I could find a LDS exegesis of those chapters?

Well for one thing, we keep in mind what Paul said in Rom 2:6-11 and what Jesus said in Matt 25:31-46.

[Calm]

I know you guys hold obedience and commandments in high esteem (obviously I do too) our differences are in why we do these commandments.

We do them because we love the Lord.

[ERayR]

I know you guys hold obedience and commandments in high esteem (obviously I do too) our differences are in why we do these commandments.

I believe Ephesians 2:8-10 clearly lays out that only those who are created in Christ Jesus can do any good works. Notice the order we are saved apart from works so that we can then do good works.

⁸ For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

⁹ Not of works, lest any man should boast.

¹⁰ For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Therefore any commandments given in the Bible can only be obeyed by those who have already been saved though faith.

[ERayR]

I have been trying to understand what you believe but it seems like many of you believe different things so its hard to get a clear picture, how do I do below?

You believe that the atonement has saved everybody in the sense that everyone will be resurrected in the last day.

However by Gods grace people can be resurrected and enter ‘higher’ states of heaven. To be exalted and enter the celestial kingdom you believe that you must have faith and obey certain commandments in order to put yourself in a place where God will graciously give you exaltation.

If I am wrong can you re-word my paragraph and make it right as you see it?

Let us try this:

To be exalted and enter the celestial kingdom you believe that you must have the faith to obey the commandments and perform the ordinances given by God in order to put yourself in a place in order to demonstrate the faith required to enter into Gods presence and partake of his grace unto where God will graciously give you exaltation.

The problem is that you see grace and works as a dichotomy. This is a problem many LDS also have. The fact is works are a compliment of faith. Faith is exhibited by our works as James teaches us.As our faith increases we show it in our works and as our works increases because of our faith then our faith increases and faith is a prerequisite of grace.

Edited July 21, 2012 by ERayR

[Zakuska]

Similarity kind of, equivalency no.

Hebrews 5:9

⁸Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

⁹ And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So all this verse is really saying is Jesus became the author of eternal salvation and that this eternal salvation is given to all that obey him.

Notice two things 1) I doesn’t say what obedience this is referring to...is it everything Jesus every commanded? Or maybe something more specific like Jesus command to repent and believe?

2) It doesn’t specifically say that this eternal salvation is gained by obeying Jesus, just that the people who receive it are people who obey him.

And thus obedience becomes a requirement. Because one can not receive IT without obeying.

[djholmess]

Let us try this:

To be exalted and enter the celestial kingdom you believe that you must have the faith to obey the commandments and perform the ordinances given by God in order to put yourself in a place in order to demonstrate the faith required to enter into Gods presence and partake of his grace unto where God will graciously give you exaltation.

The problem is that you see grace and works as a dichotomy. This is a problem many LDS also have. The fact is works are a compliment of faith. Faith is exhibited by our works as James teaches us.As our faith increases we show it in our works and as our works increases because of our faith then our faith increases and faith is a prerequisite of grace.

You are right, when it comes to what is required to enter Gods presence I do see a clear dichotomy between anything that man does which could be sumarised as works, which even your understanding of faith itself falls into, and something that God does.

In other words due to the clear teaching of the Apostle Paul (but not just Paul) I believe that man will not be made right with God or allowed into his presence as a result of anything he does from within himself.

Only those who have come to God without any righteousness, who are by the gift and grace of God trusting in the substitutionary atonement of Christ, are the ones who will be allowed to enter his presence.

Only this type of faith - a faith that is a gift, that looks away from itself and receives the grace of God with empty hands, is the kind of faith that justifies.

You are right that this faith given by God will subsequently lead the individual to do good works however you misunderstand James if you interpret him to be saying these works in anyway have anything to do with why someone is justified and accepted before God.

Let me try and make the dichotomy as clear as possible;

You believe your faith and your faithful obedience to perform the ordinances of God are required to enter the presence of God.

I believe the Biblical message is: the forgiveness in Christ and the righteousness of Christ given through the gift of faith are the only requirements to enter the presence of God.

I believe this dichotomy very clearly comes out in Romans 1-4 for example.

[djholmess]

I find it interesting that Calvinist believe,

1) God chooses who is saved and who isn't.

2) All the ones that accept Calvinism just happen to be the ones God has already chosen.

3) All the ones that reject Calvinism just happen to be the ones God has already rejected.

So, if one who God has rejected accepts Calvinism, does God change His mind? If not, why do Calvinist care about being right?

You misunderstand Calvinism

In your terms

1) God choses who to lavish with His grace and whom to justly give the punishment they deserve.

2) All those whom he chose to be gracious too he caused them to be born again, awakening saving faith in them.

3) All those who have saving faith in Jesus are the chosen ones

4) There therefore can be many confused Christians who do not undertand Calvinism or reject it who still have saving faith in Christ

[Calm]

to justly give the punishment they deserve

Why do they deserve to be punished?

[djholmess]

Well for one thing, we keep in mind what Paul said in Rom 2:6-11 and what Jesus said in Matt 25:31-46.

Lets look at Romans 2:6-11 then;

⁶ Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

⁷ To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

⁸ But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

⁹ Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

¹⁰ But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

¹¹ For there is no respect of persons with God.

I think an apt summary would be to say God will give to everyman what his deeds deserve, to those who seek for glory and honour he will give eternal life. To those who do not obey the truth he will give wrath.

Ok, so who are these people who will be given eternal life because they were patient in well doing?

¹¹ For there is no respect of persons with God.

¹² For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

¹³ (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Clearly they cannot be people who sin against the law because it is only the doers of the law that are justified, those who have failed to do it will be judged by it.

So in Pauls context of Romans 1-3 exactly what people obey the law?

In 1:18-23 we see that those who suppress the truth about God revealed in creation, who have failed to honour and thank God and who have replaced him with an image resembling mortal man or birds do not obey the law.

1:21-23

when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

²² Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

²³ And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

In 1:26-28 we see that those who practice homosexuality do not fall into this group either

1:26-27

²⁶For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

²⁷ And likewise also the men...

In 1:28-32 we see an even longer list of sins which break the law

1:29-30

fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

³⁰ Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents...

In 2:1-5 we see that anyone who judges others who do anything in that long list also cannot be said to be a doer of the law

2:1

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

In 2:17-29 the Jew who thought himself one of Gods righteous people in actual fact does not keep the law

2:23-24

²³ Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

²⁴ For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

All these put together then allow Paul to draw his conclusions in 3:9-12

⁹ What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

¹⁰ As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

¹¹ There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

¹² They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

So if there is no partiality with God and he will render everyman according to his deeds who can be saved? No one! That is the whole point of Romans 3:20-4:12, salvation must come another way.

3:20

²⁰ Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

4:5

to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

[djholmess]

Why do they deserve to be punished?

Because they sinned, Gods justice demands that sin be punished. God doesn't punish anyone who isn't a sinner.

[ERayR]

You are right, when it comes to what is required to enter Gods presence I do see a clear dichotomy between anything that man does which could be sumarised as works, which even your understanding of faith itself falls into, and something that God does.

In other words due to the clear teaching of the Apostle Paul (but not just Paul) I believe that man will not be made right with God or allowed into his presence as a result of anything he does from within himself.

Only those who have come to God without any righteousness, who are by the gift and grace of God trusting in the substitutionary atonement of Christ, are the ones who will be allowed to enter his presence.

Totally contradictory. How can one come to God without any righteousness? The unrighteous can not even approach God nor would the unrighteous even care.

Only this type of faith - a faith that is a gift, that looks away from itself and receives the grace of God with empty hands, is the kind of faith that justifies.

This statement is again contradictory and doesn't even make sense. Why do you reject James' analysis which I posted earlier. You misinterpret Paul and ignore James.

You are right that this faith given by God will subsequently lead the individual to do good works however you misunderstand James if you interpret him to be saying these works in anyway have anything to do with why someone is justified and accepted before God.

James plainly states that works are the way faith is exhibited. He states that faith without works is dead. To get around this you have to invent a dichotomy of faith, which I find incomprehensible. You are inventing something that isn't there.

Let me try and make the dichotomy as clear as possible;

You believe your faith and your faithful obedience to perform the ordinances of God are required to enter the presence of God.

I believe the Biblical message is: the forgiveness in Christ and the righteousness of Christ given through the gift of faith are the only requirements to enter the presence of God.

Again James plainly states that faith without works is dead. Dead faith is just that dead.

James 2:14-17 ¹⁴ What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? ¹⁵ If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, ¹⁶ and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? ¹⁷ Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

this dichotomy very clearly comes out in Romans 1-4 for example.

[CASteinman]

I would find it very intresting to walk through Romans 3 & 4 and try and understand how you guys intrepret Paul within his own context. I guess that's not really feasable though. Does anyone know of somewhere were I could find a LDS exegesis of those chapters?

I will attempt to discuss Romans with you when I get some time.

[CASteinman]

You misunderstand Calvinism

I suspect it was not so much misunderstood as mis-stated.

Its pretty clear that Calvinism does not require that you believe its tenants to be among the chosen. Yet at the same time, Calvinism insists that people are only chosen and saved upon the tenants it has outlined. Regardless of what a "saved" person actually believes.

But *if* Calvinists really and truly believed this, they would never preach -- or at least never preach with anything approaching the smallest degree of expectation that can or even should instill this belief in someone.

I am convinced Calvinists do not believe their own doctrines, really. Despite what they say. It is too contradictory.

[Lacked]

I was talking to an Evangelical friend of mine on this topic and he brought up the ol' Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast." And he assured me in order to be a Christian you have to believe you are saved by grace through faith alone. However, does anyone really know if in verse 9 it is saying "You're not saved by works" or is it saying "You're saved by grace through faith with no works"?

Obviously, James 2 comes in handy. In verse 17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." It would be contradictory to take the latter interpretation above "You're saved by grace through faith with no works" because faith is nothing without works.

Yet again, it's important to realize that we all fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) and we are guilty of transgressing the law. (James 2:10) We all depend on the atonement of Jesus Christ and if you think you can get to heaven on your own works, you're wrong. To me, there really isn't a difference between faith and works. If you really believe, you will do. If you do, you better believe.

[ERayR]

I was talking to an Evangelical friend of mine on this topic and he brought up the ol' Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast." And he assured me in order to be a Christian you have to believe you are saved by grace through faith alone. However, does anyone really know if in verse 9 it is saying "You're not saved by works" or is it saying "You're saved by grace through faith with no works"?

Obviously, James 2 comes in handy. In verse 17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." It would be contradictory to take the latter interpretation above "You're saved by grace through faith with no works" because faith is nothing without works.

Yet again, it's important to realize that we all fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) and we are guilty of transgressing the law. (James 2:10) We all depend on the atonement of Jesus Christ and if you think you can get to heaven on your own works, you're wrong. To me, there really isn't a difference between faith and works. If you really believe, you will do. If you do, you better believe.

Go back and read my post #160 then go on back. This is obviously a long thread but the answer to what you have asked is discussed in the thread. Also read Book of Mormon Mosiah 2:20-21.

[Calm]

Because they sinned, Gods justice demands that sin be punished. God doesn't punish anyone who isn't a sinner.

How is it just to punish a sinner if God is the one who made her with the sinful nature.

If I breed and train an animal to be a vicious attack dog, the animal may get put down if it attacks a person, but I am legally and morally responsible for any harm it causes because I am the ultimate cause.

It may be just to punish someone who sins, but logically that would mean that if God is the ultimate cause of all things he is a sinner as well and should also be punished.

I have heard the arguments of agency being given to man, but still don't see how one can get past the sinful nature of man unless God gave a random nature to each person that was just as likely to choose good as evil....and if that is so then those who choose evil aren't responsible anyway because they didn't choose it because of a desire to sin, but out of a random "choice" mechanism being part of their nature (kind of like it is God who is rolling the dice to move pieces on the board.

The board piece made "sin" but it is ultimately due to God's actions of choice, not his own, whether the choice was made randomly or due to an inherent nature that was the product of God's creative act.

[Calm]

But *if* Calvinists really and truly believed this, they would never preach -- or at least never preach with anything approaching the smallest degree of expectation that can or even should instill this belief in someone.

Not so because while it is God that is the one that causes belief, he may use whatever method he desires to do so and one of those methods may be by hearing someone preaching the word of God. (at least this is how I understand it as explained to me by a good friend, dj or another Calvinist can correct me if I am wrong please)

[Storm Rider]

I do not think the Church has changed its teachings or its doctrine when it comes to Grace and works. The Evangelical position has never made sense to me. If works were not of value, what is the importance or need for the Judgment? Exactly what would be judged if it is not works?

There is truth and value to what Evangelicals teach, but it is incomplete. The pursuit of holiness is crucial to a life of discipleship; without such a pursuit there is no discipleship. Obedience to the laws of God are what guide the disciple to emulate our Master. If we have no master then works are meaningless, there is no discipleship, and there would be no judgment.

Catholicism comes close to proper teaching, but even they want to water it down. The only full, complete teaching of Grace/works is found within the Church; but even then we need to seek for it.

[Calm]

To me, there really isn't a difference between faith and works. If you really believe, you will do. If you do, you better believe.

Same here.

It is like separating cognition (intelligence if you want) from affect (emotion). In psychology and in casual conversation we talk about them as if they are two separate things, but they are two aspects that exist together in each behaviour, internal and external. Remove one and the other ceases to exist in any meaningful way. One can only make judgements because one has not only cognitions (awareness of characteristics of a choice) but affect (we place value on things based on our emotional responses, even when we are making "purely logical" choices....what is it that give logic its value? our emotional appraisal...we have view logic as something good, something is good because we like the effect or the outcome).