Has The Church'S View Of Grace/Works Changed?

[ERayR]

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, BY obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

http://www.lds.org/l...6-1-2-1,FF.html

As a non Mormon how else am I supposed to understand the seemingly clear statements in your articles of faith? Saved by obedience, it seems a lot of what you guys have been saying would contradict your own articles of faith. Especially as article 4 says what the FIRST PRINCIPLES are, presumably the 'law and ordinances' back in article 3 cover more than just the first principles.

I know you guys are saying that you do this obedience with the help of God butbarn't you going beyond your own articles of faith when you say that this then means your obedience/works have no deciding factor in your salvation? Doesn't being saved by obedience mean that your obidience is a deciding factor in whether or not you are saved. I presume saved in referring to exaltation in the article of faith.

I believe that to understand this you must first understand what it says. You read the saved by obedience but you overlook the obedience to what.

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Note it says by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. It does not say by piling up a stack of good works it says by being obedient to a certain set of rules and ordinances. This means the ones enumerated in the fourth article of faith- 4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. plus the saving ordinances performed in the temples.

[wenglund]

From my perspective it is simple:

Because no one can do any obedience in the first place:

I can appreciate this is how you believe. We happen to accept the various New Testament passages that indicate to us that we can be obedient to God. See:

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&query=obedience&testament=nt

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&type=verse&query=obedient&testament=nt

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&type=verse&query=obey&testament=nt

This makes sense to us because we figure that it would be pointless for God to give us commandments if we weren't able to keep or obey them. Here is a list of 81 passages in the New Testament alone that contain the word "commandments":

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&start=11&end=20&type=verse&query=commandments&testament=nt

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[ERayR]

From my perspective it is simple:

Because no one can do any obedience in the first place:

Romans 8:5-8

⁵For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

⁶ For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

⁷ Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

⁸ So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Because faith, not obedience, is the condition of salvation:

Romans 3:28

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Because this faith itself is called a gift of God; not something I did from my own strength:

Ephesians 2:8

⁸For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

⁹ Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 12:3

³ For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

I notice that you have ignored James. Read and understand there is no dichotomy between faith and works. Read James and understand the works are the fruit of faith.

James 1:22 But be ye ^adoers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the ^awhole law, and yet ^boffend in one point, he is ^cguilty of all.

James 2:17-18 17 Even so ^afaith, if it hath not ^bworks, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my ^afaith by my ^bworks.

[djholmess]

I notice that you have ignored James. Read and understand there is no dichotomy between faith and works. Read James and understand the works are the fruit of faith.

James 1:22 But be ye ^adoers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the ^awhole law, and yet ^boffend in one point, he is ^cguilty of all.

James 2:17-18 17 Even so ^afaith, if it hath not ^bworks, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my ^afaith by my ^bworks.

Actually I do think I understand James just fine. He is teaching that faith without works is dead and therefore there is no way anyone can claim before another man that he has faith if he doesn't have works that his faith has produced. But with regard to salvation that's not the issue, the issue is: on what grounds is one judged to be saved before God.

So works are indeed the fruit of saving faith. However as Paul makes clear saving faith is the only basis upon which anyone is saved - works have nothing to do with God's judging anyone worthy of eternal life. The only righteous works required for eternal life are the righteous works of Jesus Christ given through faith.

[djholmess]

I can appreciate this is how you believe. We happen to accept the various New Testament passages that indicate to us that we can be obedient to God. See:

http://www.lds.org/s...ce&testament=nt

http://www.lds.org/s...nt&testament=nt

http://www.lds.org/s...ey&testament=nt

This makes sense to us because we figure that it would be pointless for God to give us commandments if we weren't able to keep or obey them. Here is a list of 81 passages in the New Testament alone that contain the word "commandments":

http://www.lds.org/s...ts&testament=nt

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I know you guys hold obedience and commandments in high esteem (obviously I do too) our differences are in why we do these commandments.

I believe Ephesians 2:8-10 clearly lays out that only those who are created in Christ Jesus can do any good works. Notice the order we are saved apart from works so that we can then do good works.

⁸ For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

⁹ Not of works, lest any man should boast.

¹⁰ For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Therefore any commandments given in the Bible can only be obeyed by those who have already been saved though faith.

[wenglund]

From my perspective it is simple:

...Because faith, not obedience, is the condition of salvation...

...Because this faith itself is called a gift of God; not something I did from my own strength...

Again, I can respect that this is what you believe. However, we accept those New Testament passages that suggest things that we do that impact our salvation, such as (note the similarity between the first quoted passage and article of faith #3):

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" Heb 5:9

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Philip 2:12

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Rom. 10:13 (Acts 2:21)

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Mt. 24:13

"I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." Jn 10:9

"By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." 1 Cor. 15:2

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" Jm 2:14

"Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." 1Tim 4:16

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." Mk 16:16

"Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." Lk 17:33

"And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." Acts 2:40

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." 1Pet. 3:21

"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation..." 2 Cor 7:10

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited July 20, 2012 by wenglund

[ERayR]

Actually I do think I understand James just fine. He is teaching that faith without works is dead and therefore there is no way anyone can claim before another man that he has faith if he doesn't have works that his faith has produced. But with regard to salvation that's not the issue, the issue is: on what grounds is one judged to be saved before God.

So works are indeed the fruit of saving faith. However as Paul makes clear saving faith is the only basis upon which anyone is saved - works have nothing to do with God's judging anyone worthy of eternal life. The only righteous works required for eternal life are the righteous works of Jesus Christ given through faith.

I don't think we have any argument on that except that if one has no works (performing the ordinances of the gospel, baptism,etc) it would be because he hadn't the faith to do any therefore he lacks the faith to receive grace.

[ERayR]

I know you guys hold obedience and commandments in high esteem (obviously I do too) our differences are in why we do these commandments.

I know that you have no idea as to why we keep the commandments. Your statements have shown a severe lack of understanding of the LDS position. To make matters worse you are only interested in scoring points and not interested in reading what has been posted.

[KevinG]

C. all of the above.

[djholmess]

Again, I can respect that this is what you believe. However, we accept those New Testament passages that suggest things that we do that impact our salvation, such as (note the similarity between the first quoted passage and article of faith #3):

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" Heb 5:9

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Philip 2:12

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Rom. 10:13 (Acts 2:21)

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Mt. 24:13

"I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." Jn 10:9

"By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." 1 Cor. 15:2

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" Jm 2:14

"Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." 1Tim 4:16

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." Mk 16:16

"Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." Lk 17:33

"And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." Acts 2:40

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." 1Pet. 3:21

"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation..." 2 Cor 7:10

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

The problem for me though is that to intrepret these verses in the way you want ignores the clear teaching of Paul in Romans 3&4. Ofcourse Hebrews 5:9 is correct in that eternal salvation is unto all who obey Christ; the issue however is that inorder to be able to obey Christ a person first must be justified and indwelt by the Holy Spirit thus enabling them obey.

For Paul justification comes without doing any good works but through the gift of faith as a result of Gods grace, the one thus justified has peace with God and is then able to obey the commandments of God. (as a result of His help).

It seems to me your doctrines ignore this nessecity and jump straight into obeying commandments in order to get into a poisition to recieve Gods grace. This seems like a very big problem to me because you are trying to obey commandments before being justified and therefore without the power of the indweilling Holy Spirit.

[Vance]

Because in their fallen sinful state no one can do any obedience in the first place;

Only those who have been made spiritually alive can even understand the things of God never mind obey them:

1 Corinthians 2:12-15

¹² Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

¹³ Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

¹⁴ But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

How then does a person who is a "fallen sinful state" EVER get out of it if they CAN'T obey God's commandment to REPENT?

[Vance]

The problem for me though is that to intrepret these verses in the way you want ignores the clear teaching of Paul in Romans 3&4.

The problem for me though is that to interpret Roman 3&4 in the way you want ignores the rest of Romans and the words of Jesus, Peter, John and James.

Just saying.

Edited to add an example,

Rom 2:6 (GOD) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Edited July 20, 2012 by Vance

[djholmess]

I know that you have no idea as to why we keep the commandments. Your statements have shown a severe lack of understanding of the LDS position. To make matters worse you are only interested in scoring points and not interested in reading what has been posted.

I have been trying to understand what you believe but it seems like many of you believe different things so its hard to get a clear picture, how do I do below?

You believe that the atonement has saved everybody in the sense that everyone will be resurrected in the last day.

However by Gods grace people can be resurrected and enter ‘higher’ states of heaven. To be exalted and enter the celestial kingdom you believe that you must have faith and obey certain commandments in order to put yourself in a place where God will graciously give you exaltation.

If I am wrong can you re-word my paragraph and make it right as you see it?

[KevinG]

The problem for me though is that to intrepret these verses in the way you want ignores the clear teaching of Paul in Romans 3&4. Ofcourse Hebrews 5:9 is correct in that eternal salvation is unto all who obey Christ; the issue however is that inorder to be able to obey Christ a person first must be justified and indwelt by the Holy Spirit thus enabling them obey.

For Paul justification comes without doing any good works but through the gift of faith as a result of Gods grace, the one thus justified has peace with God and is then able to obey the commandments of God. (as a result of His help).

It seems to me your doctrines ignore this nessecity and jump straight into obeying commandments in order to get into a poisition to recieve Gods grace. This seems like a very big problem to me because you are trying to obey commandments before being justified and therefore without the power of the indweilling Holy Spirit.

Mormons do not believe or teach that works save us. We teach that we are saved by the atonement of Jesus Christ.

"It seems to me..." is your perception not what we teach.

I personally think the debate between the necessity of faith opposed to the necessity of works is the devils debate. We must have faith in Christ first, demonstrate that faith through the required ordinances and covenants of baptism and receiving the holy ghost and then we must keep our covenants to fully realize the blessings Christ has in store for us.

Here is LDS doctrine if you have ears to hear:

• 
  We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
  
• 
  We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
  
• 
  We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
  
• 
  We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
  

Edited July 20, 2012 by KevinG

[Vance]

For Paul justification comes without doing any good works but through the gift of faith as a result of Gods grace, the one thus justified has peace with God and is then able to obey the commandments of God. (as a result of His help).

And yet Peter clearly taught that the Holy Spirit was a gift to those that OBEY God.

Acts 5:29 ¶ Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Vance

[djholmess]

How then does a person who is a "fallen sinful state" EVER get out of it if they CAN'T obey God's commandment to REPENT?

The grace of God, grace that gives the person the ability to have faith, hence why I quoted the verses in (what I think was) my first post above. Faith and repentance themselves are a gift; they are the result of being born again by the grace of God.

2 Timothy 2:25

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth

[KevinG]

I once asked an evangelical what happens to those Christians who were saved but then fall away. He told me they were never really saved in the first place.

[Vance]

The grace of God, grace that gives the person the ability to have faith, hence why I quoted the verses in (what I think was) my first post above. Faith and repentance themselves are a gift; they are the result of being born again by the grace of God.

2 Timothy 2:25

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth

So, the individual has NO CHOICE in the matter?

Why does Peter claim that God gave repentance to (all of ) Israel?

Acts 5: 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Does that mean ALL of Israel are saved because God gave them repentance?

[Vance]

What about Peter's command to repent? If it was already a gift why does he need to make it a commandment?

Acts 3:19 ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

This clearly indicates that the individual MUST do something BEFORE they are forgiven.

[Vance]

Why did Jesus teach people to repent?

Matt 4:17 ¶ From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Why didn't He just GIVE them repentance?

[wenglund]

I know you guys hold obedience and commandments in high esteem (obviously I do too) our differences are in why we do these commandments.

Actually, I think our differences are in why we have been given the commandments, and what obedience to those commandments will do for us. More to the point, our difference is in what-all we include under the umbrella of "salvation", and our viewing salvation as a process rather than an event.

We see salvation from our fallen, sinful, or natural state, and being raised up unto a spiritual and loving man (perfect man--perfect even as our Father in Heaven is perfect), as not only symbolized in ordinances such as baptism, but also to some extent a product thereof. We believe we grow, from grace to grace, unto a fullness of saving faith and love unto salvation and life by obedience to Christ and following through to the end of his way--culminating, we believe, with the final judgment and resurrection.

I can provide you will biblical passages that support this, but I don't wish to over-load you at this time.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

The problem for me though is that to intrepret these verses in the way you want ignores the clear teaching of Paul in Romans 3&4.

No. It may ignore how you may privately interpret Rom. 3&4, but it is entirely consistent with how we reasonably interpret the same.

Of course Hebrews 5:9 is correct in that eternal salvation is unto all who obey Christ; the issue however is that in order to be able to obey Christ a person first must be justified and in-dwelt by the Holy Spirit thus enabling them obey.

For Paul justification comes without doing any good works but through the gift of faith as a result of Gods grace, the one thus justified has peace with God and is then able to obey the commandments of God. (as a result of His help).

Parse and interpret it in whatever you wish. However, there is no denying the similarity in phraseology between Heb. 5:9 and the 3rd Article of faith. With both, our obedience is clearly a factor in our salvation.

It seems to me your doctrines ignore this nessecity and jump straight into obeying commandments in order to get into a poisition to recieve Gods grace. This seems like a very big problem to me because you are trying to obey commandments before being justified and therefore without the power of the indweilling Holy Spirit.

You evidently don't correctly understand our doctrine. Nit-picking and fussing over the trite point of whether we can only obey after being saved or as a part of being saved or whatever, missed the point of the gospel. What is important to us is that we obey Christ in love and to live according to his gospel as he would have us do.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[CASteinman]

Sectarian. How so?

Calvinism. An unfortunate blight on the manna and light brought to the world by and through Jesus.

Edited July 20, 2012 by CASteinman

[Vance]

Calvinism. An unfortunate blight on the manna and light brought to the world by and through Jesus.

What do you expect from a man who had people killed for disagreeing with him?

Michael Servetus anyone?

[CASteinman]

What do you expect from a man who had people killed for disagreeing with him?

Michael Servetus anyone?

I think ol' Miguel sort of egged him on with his insults, and Calvin lived as a sort of religious dictator over his kingdom (Its good to be the king). I suppose he felt he was protecting his acolytes from the evil Unitarian.

But still, for a man who read the Gospels as he had done, his insensitivity is extraordinary. Worse though, It seems to me it would have been viewed as OK because God had obviously condemned Servitus to be a vessel of wrath -- so whatever you did to him would not only be fine with God --- it was actually predetermined.