Has The Church'S View Of Grace/Works Changed?

[DBMormon]

Bible Dictionary definition which originated over 30 years ago and is found in your "bible dictionary" and still on LDS.org as well

Grace

Grace. A word that occurs frequently in the New Testament, especially in the writings of Paul. The main idea of the word is divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.

Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, “It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23). It is truly the grace of Jesus Christ that makes salvation possible. This principle is expressed in Jesus’ parable of the vine and the branches (John 15:1–11). See also John 1:12–17; Eph. 2:8–9; Philip. 4:13; D&C 93:11–14.

the modern definition formed over the past couple of years and found on LDS.ORG

http://www.lds.org/l...0004d82620aRCRD

Grace

Grace is the help or strength given through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. Through the grace of God, everyone who has lived will be resurrected—our spirits will be reunited with our bodies, never again to be separated. Through His grace, the Lord also enables those who live His gospel to repent and be forgiven.

Additional Information

Grace is a gift from Heavenly Father given through His Son, Jesus Christ. The word grace, as used in the scriptures, refers primarily to enabling power and spiritual healing offered through the mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

Everyone on earth experiences physical death. Through the grace of Jesus Christ, all will be resurrected and will live forever (see 1 Corinthians 15:20–22; 2 Nephi 9:6–13).

Because of personal choices, everyone also experiences the effects of sin (see 1 John 1:8–10; Mosiah 16:4). These effects are called spiritual death. No one can return to the presence of God without divine grace. Through the Atonement, we all can be forgiven of our sins; we can become clean before God. To receive this enabling power, we must obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, which includes having faith in Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and trying to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives (see Ephesians 2:8–9; James 2:17–22; 2 Nephi 25:23; 31:20).

The grace of God helps us every day. It strengthens us to do good works we could not do on our own. The Lord promised that if we humble ourselves before Him and have faith in Him, His grace will help us overcome all our personal weaknesses (seeEther 12:27).

Are there distinct differences or are these two definitons saying the same thing?

Edited July 11, 2012 by DBMormon

[djholmess]

As a none LDS I have to admit talking to Mormons seems very confusing on this issue. Reading the BoM (Moroni 10:32) and some official Church literature I have gotten the impression that grace is an enabling power that is only open to believers AFTER all they can do, so there are specific acts of obedience, that if known about, must be done.

Yet when I ask pointed questions along this line to LDS individuals they never seem to say this very clearly.

What does Moroni mean but that the grace of God is sufficient for you IF you rid yourself of all ungodliness and love God with all your heart?

[DBMormon]

notwithstanding all we can do, we are saved by the merits mercy and grace of Christ

IMHO

This doesn't excuse our trying to do all we can but our trying doesn't save us. It is seeing the scripture you get that from in a different way.

Edited July 11, 2012 by DBMormon

[djholmess]

So spell that out for me,

Are the grace and merits of Jesus all you need?

Or do you need to first do all you can do I order to be able to then receive the merits of Jesus?

[robuchan]

Bible Dictionary definition which originated over 30 years ago and is found in your "bible dictionary" and still on LDS.org as well

the modern definition formed over the past couple of years and found on LDS.ORG

http://www.lds.org/l...0004d82620aRCRD

Are there distinct differences or are these two definitons saying the same thing?

I noticed that before. It's sad that the grace entry in the Bible Dictionary is an argument for works. I wonder if/when they'll redo the Bible Dictionary? That will be something they make over. And yes, views have changed. We can thank people like Stephen Robinson and Bob Millet.

[thesometimesaint]

I don't see any change, if you mean dropping one definition for another. OTOH emphasize does change back and forth over time.

[CASteinman]

Another thread designed to be a "a great way to witness to Mormons " since "asking questions gives them hope that you are genuinely interested in learning more about their religion. It also is a great way to get them thinking about things they may have never thought about and researching into the false teachings of their church".

[Flyonthewall]

I turn to the parable of the talents to illustrate how faith/works work...

The talents can be looked upon as faith given to us by God.

Each of the 3 were given different amounts of faith.

The two that put effort out to increase their faith, brought back fruits of their labor and were rewarded with grace

The one that did nothing, did not receive grace.

Fairly simplistic adaptation but works for me

hope it helps

[CV75]

Are there distinct differences or are these two definitons saying the same thing?

I think sincerely trying is the same as expendig our own best efforts and imparting total effort. In any case, trying, expending and imparting must be done with faith in Christ, and grace is required.

[CV75]

So spell that out for me,

Are the grace and merits of Jesus all you need?

Or do you need to first do all you can do I order to be able to then receive the merits of Jesus?

The grace and merits of Jesus must work upon something, and that something is us. So we need us to complete the equation. "Us" is everything we do and are, and because we are creatures that act, we must do and become something when faced with Christ. Because the grace and merits of Christ must act on something, His grace and merits are not all we need (we need to act, be, etc.).

I think in the grand scheme, the grace and merits of Jesus and our acting and becoming operate in a constant tandem.

[Doctrine 612]

We are saved after all we can do, what can we do, belive in christ, repent of our sins, better ourselves, keep moving forward, and after all we can do christ will make up the rest.

2 nephi 25:23, john 3:16,alma 24:10-11.

Faith=Belive=Do

[sweetpotatoh]

Works is living righteously. Works is never giving up and continually striving to do the will of The Lord. We know, for ourselves, what our Father in Heaven wants us to do. Doing it is "works".

I think that those not of our religion seek to define us and by doing so, put parameters on what our doctrine is. But the gospel does not fit into a neat little package that can be easily examined and then dismissed. It is a living gospel and each of us will be called to do different things. Living righteously, keeping our covenants, fixing them if we break them, raising our families and all that entails, serving one another in and out of callings is "works". Service is the key. The Gospel is a verb.

[DBMormon]

christ will make up the rest.

To me in my opinion, this is one of the most incorrect things we say in our faith. Christ doesn't make up the difference.... he makes all the difference. Christ doesn't pay only the part of the debt we can't, he paid it all, it is finished. He made the atonement and paid the whole price for sin. There is no part that is ours. We are obligated to use his gift, but not as part of a payment

I don't believe this is church doctrine but way too many of us have a incorrect understanding of this scripture and use it in a way it doesn't apply

Elder Dallin H. Oaks has said, referring to President Spencer W. Kimball’s explanation, “The repenting sinner must suffer for his

sins, but this suffering has a different purpose than punishment or payment. Its purpose is change” (The Lord’s Way [salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1991], 223; emphasis in original).

Elder Bruce C. Hafen has written, “The great Mediator asks for our repentance not because we must ‘repay’ him in exchange forhis paying our debt to justice, but because repentance initiates a developmental process that, with the Savior’s help, leads us along the path to a saintly character” (The Broken Heart [salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1989], 149; emphasis in original).

Edited July 11, 2012 by DBMormon

[DBMormon]

I think the Bible dictionary reflects in a incorrect or incomplete understanding of 2nd Nephi's 25:23. the bible dictionary is not scripture by an assistance to us to understand scripture.

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Many take this to mean that only after all we can do does Christ's grace enter in and have effect and make up the difference....

False

It should be understood as

Notwithstanding all we can do, despite all we can do, regardless of all we can do...... It is by Grace that we are saved.

I know that there is no other name given under heaven whereby a man can be saved and that only by relying wholly upon His merits, mercy, and everlasting grace¹⁹ can we gain eternal life. Elder Holland - OCT 2010 General Conference

Are we expected to rely in any way shape or form upon our works? No. That doesn't take away God's expectation that we will value Christ's gift by trying our best to be like his son and to try our best to keep the commandments and to repent when we fall short

Edited July 11, 2012 by DBMormon

[djholmess]

I think the Bible dictionary reflects in a incorrect or incomplete understanding of 2nd Nephi's 25:23. the bible dictionary is not scripture by an assistance to us to understand scripture.

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Many take this to mean that only after all we can do does Christ's grace enter in and have effect and make up the difference....

False

It should be understood as

Notwithstanding all we can do, despite all we can do, regardless of all we can do...... It is by Grace that we are saved.

Are we expected to rely in any way shape or form upon our works? No. That doesn't take away God's expectation that we will value Christ's gift by trying our best to be like his son and to try our best to keep the commandments and to repent when we fall short

Is this your opinion or are there any specific official revelations that more clearly define exultation in this way rather than requiring 'all we can do'

Also I'm curious if you guys think in these terms: Lets say that through the atonment you have all your sins washed away - you are completely clean. Does this qualify you to enter into the celestial Kingdom? Or does God require that you be worthy to enter? Having sins forgiven brings you from bad to neutral, is that enough or do you need to be in the positive to get in. In otherwords do you need to have some rightesouness as well?

[djholmess]

DBMormon,

How do you intrepret Moroni 10:32

Yea, ^acome unto Christ, and be ^bperfected in him, and ^cdeny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and ^dlove God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you

It seems that Christ's grace being sufficient requires that you first have done some (or a lot) of your own effort. In this context aren't you relying on your works in order to get you to a place where Christ's grace is sufficient for you?

[thesometimesaint]

James 2:19

You believe that there is one God; you do well: the demons also believe, and tremble.

Edited July 11, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[oremites]

I think the reason there is so much contention between the grace vs. works factions is that the "grace" side looks at salvation as where you go (heaven or hell) while the "works" side looks at salvation as who you become. How can I confidently say I'm "saved" when I haven't yet become who God wants me to become?

Grace and works are not two competing ideas that have to be reconciled or assigned percentages as to which is most important. They work together beautifully in God's great plan for us.

[wenglund]

To me, much of the grace/works debate is a semantic morass of valueless contending that tends to counter-productively distract us from the very things those precepts are intended to direct us--a case, as the Savior put it, of "straining at gnats and swallowing camels." (Mt. 23:24)

I trust in Christ that as long as we abide in God's grace and love and follow Savior through obedience to all that he has commanded, and do the works he would have us do, it will be well for us, and we need not concern ourselves with philosophical wranglings.

By so doing, we may wisely avoid errantly and presumptuously position ourselves as the final arbiters of what is the correct or incorrect doctrine of our collective faith, as at least one individual has attempted here.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

I think the reason there is so much contention between the grace vs. works factions is that the "grace" side looks at salvation as where you go (heaven or hell) while the "works" side looks at salvation as who you become. How can I confidently say I'm "saved" when I haven't yet become who God wants me to become?

Grace and works are not two competing ideas that have to be reconciled or assigned percentages as to which is most important. They work together beautifully in God's great plan for us.

Well said!! [thumbs up]

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Freedom]

Yes grace is what saves us, but we access grace through our faith. Do we earn our salvation? The bible teaches us that we must work out our salvation and the Book of Mormon explains that we are saved after all we can do. It comes down to semantics but fundamentally we reject the notion that God's desire to save is entirely arbitrary. It is a fallacy that, no matter what choices we make in this, we have no control over our eternal destiny. Scriptures like the following make it clear that we do play a part:

Eph 2:8-10 Grace through faith

Matt 10:22 Endure to the end

Prov 28:18 walk uprightly and be saved

1 Tim 6:18-19 good works lay store good foundation of eternal life

Luke 13:23-24 strive to enter in at the strait gate

Eph 6:24, John 14:15 grace for those who love the lord, loving god means keep the commandments

Mat 7:21 no say but do to be saved

Mat 24:13 Endure to the end to be saved

So clearly, grace is not free in the absolute sense. There is a cost. It is the relative value of the cost we must pay compared to what the Savior must pay that is up for debate. Some Christians argue that all you must do is accept Jesus as your savior, others argue that no matter what you do you have no control. The LDS believe that God is bound when we do as he says but if we do not what he ways we have no promise.

It helps if we understand the purpose of works. We do not perform works to buy our way into heaven, but rather to become the type of person that resides in heaven. A simple example would be the work a parent requires of their dependent children. I require my children to clean their rooms, do their homework, and a variety of other tasks. In return I give them benefits that they would never be able to afford. There is, of course, a certain standard of care I provide regardless of how they behave, but there are basic expectations they must meet for many privileges. If we do not set a standard, nothing is learned. God is, after all, the master teacher.

[Freedom]

Are we expected to rely in any way shape or form upon our works? No. That doesn't take away God's expectation that we will value Christ's gift by trying our best to be like his son and to try our best to keep the commandments and to repent when we fall short

I rely completely on the merits of the bank to give me a mortgage but that does not mean there is nothing I must do to become eligible. I rely completely on the merits of my doctor to provide proper medical care, but this does not mean I must not also rely on my works to follow his/her instructions. Why would God have expectations that we be like his Son if it doesn't matter? This is like a parent telling their children that they better behave but then giving no consequence if they don't. If there is nothing we can do, then the bible should have been a single slip of paper telling us to accept Jesus.

[sweetpotatoh]

To me, much of the grace/works debate is a semantic morass of valueless contending that tends to counter-productively distract us from the very things those precepts are intended to direct us--a case, as the Savior put it, of "straining at gnats and swallowing camels." (Mt. 23:24)

I trust in Christ that as long as we abide in God's grace and love and follow Savior through obedience to all that he has commanded, and do the works he would have us do, it will be well for us, and we need not concern ourselves with philosophical wranglings.

By so doing, we may wisely avoid errantly and presumptuously position ourselves as the final arbiters of what is the correct or incorrect doctrine of our collective faith, as at least one individual has attempted here.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

That is what I was trying to say. A rep point for you sir.

[DBMormon]

I think the reason there is so much contention between the grace vs. works factions is that the "grace" side looks at salvation as where you go (heaven or hell) while the "works" side looks at salvation as who you become. How can I confidently say I'm "saved" when I haven't yet become who God wants me to become?

Grace and works are not two competing ideas that have to be reconciled or assigned percentages as to which is most important. They work together beautifully in God's great plan for us.

Very much so, well said as well, but doesn't answer the OP

[KevinG]

It should be understood as

Notwithstanding all we can do, despite all we can do, regardless of all we can do...... It is by Grace that we are saved.

That comes into clearer focus when we remind people of our first and most fundamental belief:

• We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
  
• We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
  
• We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
  
• We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
  

Edited July 11, 2012 by KevinG