Has The Church'S View Of Grace/Works Changed?

[DBMormon]

So clearly, grace is not free in the absolute sense. There is a cost. It is the relative value of the cost we must pay compared to what the Savior must pay that is up for debate. Some Christians argue that all you must do is accept Jesus as your savior, others argue that no matter what you do you have no control. The LDS believe that God is bound when we do as he says but if we do not what he ways we have no promise.

absolutely, I never said works are not required, only what is their function, I may differ on

[thesometimesaint]

The function of works is to separate the sheep from the goats

[KevinG]

I am a goat of a home teacher. Time to repent.

[Tacenda]

Deleted

Edited July 11, 2012 by Tacenda

[ERayR]

To me in my opinion, this is one of the most incorrect things we say in our faith. Christ doesn't make up the difference.... he makes all the difference. Christ doesn't pay only the part of the debt we can't, he paid it all, it is finished. He made the atonement and paid the whole price for sin. There is no part that is ours. We are obligated to use his gift, but not as part of a payment

I don't believe this is church doctrine but way too many of us have a incorrect understanding of this scripture and use it in a way it doesn't apply

King Benjamin says it best. He enumerates all our works then says that even if we did all these things we would yet be unprofitable servants. Works are the fruit of faith not a payment plan.

[wenglund]

Works are the fruit of faith not a payment plan.

As Oremite astutely intimated early, good works are like a spiritual hammer and chisel that chip away at the block of our souls and helps transform us into the image of Christ. Whether that transformation can rightly be defined as salvation or not, is for the philosophers to endlessly debate if they wish, though to me is not what is important. What is important is that the transformation can and does occur, in part, through works, and for those of us wishing to become like Christ, it behooves us to do the works that Christ would have us do.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited July 11, 2012 by wenglund

[wenglund]

To reiterate my earlier point, the grace/works debate is kind of like when the Pharisees philosophized about the implications of a blind man being made to see, and after pestering the once blind man about various things, he wisely replied: "Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see." (Jn. 9, particularly verse 25)

Whether works are needed to be saved or are a product of salvation, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas once I was spiritually blind, now I see.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mbh26]

Did early Church leaders have differing opinions on this issue? Would Joseph Smith or Sidney Rigdon have agreed more with McKonckie, or would they have agreed more with Robinson and Millet?

[halconero]

Could we not say that we do not utilize the gift of grace God gives us until we have participated in the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel?

"All we can do" very well refer to these principles, thereby rendering a doctrinally correct idea that we will be saved and exalted by grace if we do not participate in these things.

[DBMormon]

King Benjamin says it best. He enumerates all our works then says that even if we did all these things we would yet be unprofitable servants. Works are the fruit of faith not a payment plan.

As Oremite astutely intimated early, good works are like a spiritual hammer and chisel that chip away at the block of our souls and helps transform us into the image of Christ. Whether that transformation can rightly be defined as salvation or not, is for the philosophers to endlessly debate if they wish, though to me is not what is important. What is important is that the transformation can and does occur, in part, through works, and for those of us wishing to become like Christ, it behooves us to do the works that Christ would have us do.

Amen fellas

[DBMormon]

Did early Church leaders have differing opinions on this issue? Would Joseph Smith or Sidney Rigdon have agreed more with McKonckie, or would they have agreed more with Robinson and Millet?

I am not so sure McConkie would agree with the label your giving him

in the talk "What think ye of salvation by grace"

Elder McConkie says "

After teaching them some of the great truths of salvation, Abinadi answered his own question: “Salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses” (Mosiah 13:28). Salvation is not in works—not even in those revealed of God—but in Christ and his atonement.

[cwald]

Perhaps we will be saved by grace IN SPITE of our works or what we do. Rather than "after all we can do?"

[DBMormon]

How do you intrepret Moroni 10:32

Yea, ^acome unto Christ, and be ^bperfected in him, and ^cdeny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and ^dlove God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you

1.) Come unto him (faith repentance baptism)

2.) Enter into an intial Perfection by borrowing Christ’s perfection in the baptismal covenant

3.) Deny yourselves of all ungodliness – this is a process. This is the mighty change. For most people this is not an instant occurrence, this is a lifetime of repentance and improvement

4.) As you go through this refining process his grace is suffcient or in otherwords you are accepting this gift.

5.) You missed verse 33:

33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your csins, that ye become dholy, without spot.

You need to ask from verse 32 what is his grace suffcient to do?

Verse 33 says that God’s Grace sanctifies us or changes us, cleaneses us, that eventually you become holy without spot.

In otherwords our constant effort to do our best (not the actual result of keeping all commandments or meeting a set in stone standard of obedience but the refining effort of trying and improving open us up to accept God’s gift of Grace which is the enabling poer of the atonement to perfect us. His grace is what perfects us, our trying to do all we can according to what he asks or commands is our being a vessel his grace can work within

It seems that Christ's grace being sufficient requires that you first have done some (or a lot) of your own effort. In this context aren't you relying on your works in order to get you to a place where Christ's grace is sufficient for you?

Grace is a gift that can only have effect on those who exercise faith and come unto Christ. This requires obviously some effort to press forward with steadfastness and yield our hearts to God to try to move forward towards Christ. That is where some Christians mess up they think you can rebell and go backward and still utilize his grace unto salvation. Not possible. Grace is a free gift, but you must go and pick it up.

Helamen 3:35, 2^nd nephi 31, ether 12:27

[KevinG]

Perhaps we will be saved by grace IN SPITE of our works or what we do. Rather than "after all we can do?"

A difference without a distinction.

[ERayR]

Did early Church leaders have differing opinions on this issue? Would Joseph Smith or Sidney Rigdon have agreed more with McKonckie, or would they have agreed more with Robinson and Millet?

Can't say for sure. They are not here to ask and anything they wrote is always filtered through the biases of the one reading it.

[ERayR]

Perhaps we will be saved by grace IN SPITE of our works or what we do. Rather than "after all we can do?"

Once again like many others you are misinterpreting that.

[DBMormon]

Perhaps we will be saved by grace IN SPITE of our works or what we do. Rather than "after all we can do?"

Grace is free... so we must see it that way. But I can give a free gift and you can still refuse it. To recieve Grace one must come unto christ.

The problem is that some latter day saints want to place works as part of the formula. The way I combat that rational is to ask how many works? Which ones? What is the standard where one more work I get it and One less I don't make it. See that doesn't fit. It doesn't feel right by the spirit.

So knowing that (works righteousness = salvation) is wrong and also (Grace alone + no effort on the individuals part) is wrong as well

What are we left with? Helaman 3:35 Sanctification cometh by yielding our hearts to him. The goal is to be heavenly to change so that we desire sin no more. That is done as we try to follow christ, repent when we fall down, use his grace, mercy, and atonement to overcome weaknesses, be humble.

Edited July 11, 2012 by DBMormon

[DBMormon]

We have gotten off on a tangent which is great but.... does anyone else care to answer to OP question?

Has works been de-emphasized over time while Grace has been more emphasized over time in the church?

[DBMormon]

MBH26 & Robochun

Did early Church leaders have differing opinions on this issue? Would Joseph Smith or Sidney Rigdon have agreed more with McKonckie, or would they have agreed more with Robinson and Millet?

If you love those two (millet and robinson) and their writings on Grace which I do as well

you will also live both Elder Lunds talks http://www.lds.org/e...ace-or-by-works

and the best of all time - Brad Wilcox's "Grace is suffcient"

read - http://speeches.byu....er.php?id=13436

watch - http://byutv.org/wat...57-7000b9945468

all I can say is awesome.... his analogy of piano lessons is beautiful

Edited July 11, 2012 by DBMormon

[thesometimesaint]

DBMormon:

It's an ebb and flow thing. Sometimes one facet is promoted for a while then the other facet is promoted for a while.

[Lightbearer]

Are there distinct differences or are these two definitons saying the same thing?

I would answer they are saying the same thing. I think the preception of the Grace-Works question has changed with the culture. The basic teachings on grace are the same as when Joseph Smith taught them, but some things have been empasized at various times to meet the needs of the people and their understanding. The "born again" or "evangelical" movement has challenged the Church because of their (the evangelical's) lack of understanding of those concepts as taught by LDS and it has become necessary to meet those challenges. Any apparent difference in definitions over the years has been necessary to teach these principles more clearly to various people. Even in the early Church (New Testament times) there seems to have been some confusion. Paul's and James' teachings indicate this. The truth of the matter is that we are saved (and exalted) through the atonement of Christ, but unless we offer a sacrifice of a broken heart and a contrite spirit and repent (meaning to change our nature) and take upon us the name of Christ through the ordinances of salvation and then by enduring to the end we cannot retain our salvation (and exaltation). We are judged according to our works, as stated in the Book of Mormon:

"And Amulek hath spoken plainly concerning death, and being raised from this mortality to a state of immortality, and being brought before the bar of God, to be judged according to our works. Then if our hearts have been hardened, yea, if we have hardened our hearts against the word, insomuch that it has not been found in us, then will our state be awful, for then we shall be condemned. For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence. But this cannot be; we must come forth and stand before him in his glory, and in his power, and in his might, majesty, and dominion, and acknowledge to our everlasting shame that all his judgments are just; that he is just in all his works, and that he is merciful unto the children of men, and that he has all power to save every man that believeth on his name and bringeth forth fruit meet for repentance." (Book of Mormon | Alma 12:12-15)

We cannot be saved "in our sins" but we must be saved from our sins. The only way this can happen is through our faith and our repentance and our reforming our life to a righteous state so that the atonement can bring about this mighty change of heart. These things grace and work are interdenpendent, no one has ever taught in the Church that we are saved by our own righteous works, but through the grace of Christ. Yet we cannot be saved by the grace of Christ if we harden our hearts and break His commandments. Faith is a principle of action and power and true faith produces fruits meet for repentance, if there is no change of heart, no reformation of life, there is no repentance and also no true faith. Edited July 11, 2012 by Lightbearer

[Calm]

I think the reason there is so much contention between the grace vs. works factions is that the "grace" side looks at salvation as where you go (heaven or hell) while the "works" side looks at salvation as who you become. How can I confidently say I'm "saved" when I haven't yet become who God wants me to become?

Grace and works are not two competing ideas that have to be reconciled or assigned percentages as to which is most important. They work together beautifully in God's great plan for us.

Another confusing aspect is seeing salvation as a one time event as opposed to an ongoing process, thus misapplying words like "after" as a time/location condition when it is not.

[Calm]

Yes grace is what saves us, but we access grace through our faith. Do we earn our salvation? The bible teaches us that we must work out our salvation and the Book of Mormon explains that we are saved after all we can do. It comes down to semantics but fundamentally we reject the notion that God's desire to save is entirely arbitrary. It is a fallacy that, no matter what choices we make in this, we have no control over our eternal destiny. Scriptures like the following make it clear that we do play a part:

Eph 2:8-10 Grace through faith

Matt 10:22 Endure to the end

Prov 28:18 walk uprightly and be saved

1 Tim 6:18-19 good works lay store good foundation of eternal life

Luke 13:23-24 strive to enter in at the strait gate

Eph 6:24, John 14:15 grace for those who love the lord, loving god means keep the commandments

Mat 7:21 no say but do to be saved

Mat 24:13 Endure to the end to be saved

So clearly, grace is not free in the absolute sense. There is a cost. It is the relative value of the cost we must pay compared to what the Savior must pay that is up for debate.

There is also confusion over what the cost we are 'paying' is, it is not identical to the cost that the Saviour paid for us.

This is why I don't like using the money analogy as with money it doesn't really matter when or for what something is invested, one makes an account with all the income on one side and all the expenses on the other. Mortality, repentance, obedience and the Atonement and Exaltation do not function in the same way at all.

[Calm]

King Benjamin says it best. He enumerates all our works then says that even if we did all these things we would yet be unprofitable servants. Works are the fruit of faith not a payment plan.

Yes!

I ran out of rep points before this thread....too many good points being made today.

[Calm]

Could we not say that we do not utilize the gift of grace God gives us until we have participated in the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel?

"All we can do" very well refer to these principles, thereby rendering a doctrinally correct idea that we will be saved and exalted by grace if we do not participate in these things.

How can one repent or even have faith without the grace of God? Who gives us the seed with which to begin the journey if we so choose?