Has The Church'S View Of Grace/Works Changed?

[ERayR]

"For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled unto God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23).

I wish the bolded part could be: and we do all we can because of that "grace".

The after all we can do part should be understood in conjunction with King Benjamen's If we do all these things we would yet be unprofitable servants. I take that to mean that when all is over it is not the works that save us but the grace.

[Damien the Leper]

The after all we can do part should be understood in conjunction with King Benjamen's If we do all these things we would yet be unprofitable servants. I take that to mean that when all is over it is not the works that save us but the grace.

Amen! Amen! and Amen!

[ERayR]

Amen! Amen! and Amen!

But let us not forget that works are important because if we do not have faith sufficient to generate works we do not have the faith necessary to receive grace.

[Damien the Leper]

But let us not forget that works are important because if we do not have faith sufficient to generate works we do not have the faith necessary to receive grace.

Of course. This is why I believe that the pseudo-Pauline statement in Ephesians is in harmony with James' statement.

[ERayR]

Of course. This is why I believe that the pseudo-Pauline statement in Ephesians is in harmony with James' statement.

Since connecting 2 Nephi 25:23 with Mosiah 2:20-21 I have rejected the faith and works dichotomy. I think James is beautiful. "Show me your faith without your works". You can't works are the fruit of faith and if you don't have them you have nothing to show because you have not faith sufficient to generate works. And he finishes with "I'll show you may faith by my works".

[Zakuska]

Since connecting 2 Nephi 25:23 with Mosiah 2:20-21 I have rejected the faith and works dichotomy. I think James is beautiful. "Show me your faith without your works". You can't works are the fruit of faith and if you don't have them you have nothing to show because you have not faith sufficient to generate works. And he finishes with "I'll show you may faith by my works".

I love my Sig line.

[ERayR]

I love my Sig line.

My saying is that works are not a payment plan.

[Damien the Leper]

My saying is that works are not a payment plan.

Wasn't it Elder Oaks who spoke of some heavenly bank account and how wrong it is to perceive salvation in such ways? Or am I imagining a supposed talk or article?

[wenglund]

But let us not forget that works are important because if we do not have faith sufficient to generate works we do not have the faith necessary to receive grace.

Let us also not forget the reciprocal relationship between faith and works. Not only are works a product of faith, but growth in faith is also a product of works.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Damien the Leper]

Let us also not forget the reciprocal relationship between faith and works. Not only are works a product of faith, but growth in faith is also a product of works.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Our faith is perfected by our works. If only I could get the anti's to understand that this is what we TRULY believe and not the backhanded insult they use to back unsuspecting members into a corner with.

[wenglund]

Our faith is perfected by our works. If only I could get the anti's to understand that this is what we TRULY believe and not the backhanded insult they use to back unsuspecting members into a corner with.

I am kind of glad that unsuspecting member are, on occasion, backed into a corner on this issue because it might encourage them to develop a deeper understanding of faith, and grow thereby, and this even given the risk that their faith may be challenged and lost. Such, in a way, is the point of life. Thus, even the anti's serve a purpose in the Lord's plan, if nothing more than testing and prodding the saints on to bigger and better things.

At least it has worked at times for me. [thumbs up]

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Damien the Leper]

I am kind of glad that unsuspecting member are, on occasion, backed into a corner on this issue because it might encourage them to develop a deeper understanding of faith, and grow thereby, and this even given the risk that their faith may be challenged and lost. Such, in a way, is the point of life. Thus, even the anti's serve a purpose in the Lord's plan, if nothing more than testing and prodding the saints on to bigger and better things.

At least it has worked at times for me. [thumbs up]

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Hmm...thanks for that insight, Wade. I think I'll have to agree with you. I would have to say that from personal experience it has worked for me as well.

Curiously, do you think it would be appropriate to teach apologetics on some level at church? With the intent to deepen theological exploration and understanding is the intent of my question.

[teddyaware]

Two of the most important clairifying scriptures on the subject of grace and works are found found in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine & Covenants respectively.

Moroni 10: 24-25 declares: "And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God."

So thiese first passages help us to understand that the only way a fallen human can perform a work of righteousness, one that actuallyfinds approval in the sight of God, is for the work to be performed under the enlightening and empowering influence of the spirtual powers and gifts that are bestowed upon fallen man as a blessing of the atonement. Therefore, the notion that we must do all we can do as fallen humans (dead works) before God enters the picture to bestow a final blessing and seal of approval is false. If the only works that are acceptable and accounted for righteousness in the sight of God are living works, performed with the aid of his graciously bestowed powers and gifts, then there is no room at all for pride orboasting. Rather, only genuine expressions of the deepest gratitude and humility are appropriate. In light of the above, God's grace is indispensably manifest through one's thoughts and actions during his walk with God, at all times from begining to end.

The second clarifying passage is found in Doctrine & Covenants 93: 12-13 wherein -- speaking of Christ -- it states: "And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace; And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness."

Later on in this section, this same discribed process of spiritual growth, experienced by the Lord, is commended and extented to his followers as well. And what is this process? If one shares, through service to God and man, the measure of gifts and powers of God he already possess (grace for grace), God will endow him with more and more power. So by faithfully blessing others, by extending to them righteous service, through means of the gifts and powers of God already in one's possession, God will graciously bless the faithful saint who magnifies his calling with an even greater measure of the spiritual gifts and powers (grace) than he previously possessed. Faithfully living in this prescribed manner enables the diligent saint to continue to progress from lower levels of spiritual empowerment to higher and higher ones, until, at last, the arrival of "the perfect day."

God is all in and through the process of salvation from beginning to end. Without the continulal extension of his grace (divine gifts and powers), our works are what the Apostle Paul called dead works (i.e. works devoid of the gifts and powers of God.)

[freedad]

I have thought much on this subject lately. In the end we are all saved by the grace of Jesus Christ and His atonement. This means, that without any effort on our part we will be rescued from physical death by the resurrection. It also means that we will be saved from spiritual death through the redemption. Except for a very few, all of us will be saved at least to the telestial kingdom which surpasses our understanding (see D&C 76:89). So we are saved by grace.

However, this does not mean we are going to be in the celestial kingdom. This is where works comes in. We make the best effort possible on our part to become celestial beings through our good works and honest attempts to be born again in righteousness (see Mosiah 27:25-26). We cannot do this by ourselves. Again, the grace of Jesus Christ helps us along the way. But we must try our best.

In the end we are judged of our works by Jesus Christ who will determine whether or not we really have changed from a fallen to a reborn state. He will determine just how much effort we made. Being the Perfect Judge, He know our desires and efforts and if they were the 100% we were able to give or not. Our works form our character. Based on our character, we (He and us) will judge whether or not we will be comfortable in the presence of other celestial beings and if we deserve to dwell with them.

[ERayR]

I have thought much on this subject lately. In the end we are all saved by the grace of Jesus Christ and His atonement. This means, that without any effort on our part we will be rescued from physical death by the resurrection. It also means that we will be saved from spiritual death through the redemption. Except for a very few, all of us will be saved at least to the telestial kingdom which surpasses our understanding (see D&C 76:89). So we are saved by grace.

However, this does not mean we are going to be in the celestial kingdom. This is where works comes in. We make the best effort possible on our part to become celestial beings through our good works and honest attempts to be born again in righteousness (see Mosiah 27:25-26). We cannot do this by ourselves. Again, the grace of Jesus Christ helps us along the way. But we must try our best.

In the end we are judged of our works by Jesus Christ who will determine whether or not we really have changed from a fallen to a reborn state. He will determine just how much effort we made. Being the Perfect Judge, He know our desires and efforts and if they were the 100% we were able to give or not. Our works form our character. Based on our character, we (He and us) will judge whether or not we will be comfortable in the presence of other celestial beings and if we deserve to dwell with them.

I think that it is by grace that we are saved, sanctified and exalted. It is by faith that we receive grace and works are the fruits of faith. If you don't have faith enough to produce works you have nothing. I would encourage you to read 2 Nephi 25:23 then immediately go to Mosiah 2:10-21. It should then be clear that no matter what works we do they will never be enough and will always require the grace of God. James puts it quite succinctly when he says Show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works. Works are not a payment plan.

[wenglund]

Curiously, do you think it would be appropriate to teach apologetics on some level at church? With the intent to deepen theological exploration and understanding is the intent of my question.

There was a time that I thought it would be a good idea. I don't so much now because I believe that apologetics, for the most part, deals with gospel irrelevancies and may inadvertently and counter-productively feed distractions to growth in faith--though I believe it has its place outside the structure of the Church. I think it best to leave the Church to do what it does best and what is relevant to its mission.

The most effective way I have found to deepen my understand of God and to develop spiritually, is to live the gospel. I learned this a number of years ago while working on a three volume expose on Heavenly Father. After spending countless hours over several years doing intense research, contemplation, and analysis, I happened to be sitting on my front porch, and in a moment of tempered pride, I thought to myself that there may not be but only a handful of people on the planet who understood God as in-depth as I did. And at that moment, whether as a dream or in reality (I am not sure, nor does it matter), I happened to notice an elderly farmer and his wife stopping by my neighbor's, a single mother struggling to support herself and her son, and they dropped off a basket of food on the door step. This small act of love struck me with great force, and let me know that this elderly farmer and his wife had more true understanding of God in their little fingers (metaphorically speaking) than I had in my entire body. It was a life-altering event, and taught me that the real power and insight of the gospel comes not so much from academic studies and constructing systematice theologies, but from living gospel precepts, particularly those directly related to the purest form of religion. For what it is worth...

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited July 20, 2012 by wenglund

[Evangeline]

The most effective way I have found to deepen my understand of God and to develop spiritually, is to live the gospel. I learned this a number of years ago while working on a three volume expose on Heavenly Father. After spending countless hours over several years doing intense research, contemplation, and analysis, I happened to be sitting on my front porch, and in a moment of tempered pride, I thought to myself that there may not be but only a handful of people on the planet who understood God as in-depth as I did. And at that moment, whether as a dream or in reality (I am not sure, nor does it matter), I happened to notice an elderly farmer and his wife stopping by my neighbor's, a single mother struggling to support herself and her son, and they dropped off a basket of food on the door step. This small act of love struck me with great force, and let me know that this elderly farmer and his wife had more true understanding of God in their little fingers (metaphorically speaking) than I had in my entire body. It was a life-altering event, and taught me that the real power and insight of the gospel comes not so much from academic studies and constructing systematice theologies, but from living gospel precepts, particularly those directly related to the purest form of religion. For what it is worth...

Amen.

[Tacenda]

There was a time that I thought it would be a good idea. I don't so much now because I believe that apologetics, for the most part, deals with gospel irrelevancies and may inadvertently and counter-productively feed distractions to growth in faith--though I believe it has its place outside the structure of the Church. I think it best to leave the Church to do what it does best and what is relevant to its mission.

The most effective way I have found to deepen my understand of God and to develop spiritually, is to live the gospel. I learned this a number of years ago while working on a three volume expose on Heavenly Father. After spending countless hours over several years doing intense research, contemplation, and analysis, I happened to be sitting on my front porch, and in a moment of tempered pride, I thought to myself that there may not be but only a handful of people on the planet who understood God as in-depth as I did. And at that moment, whether as a dream or in reality (I am not sure, nor does it matter), I happened to notice an elderly farmer and his wife stopping by my neighbor's, a single mother struggling to support herself and her son, and they dropped off a basket of food on the door step. This small act of love struck me with great force, and let me know that this elderly farmer and his wife had more true understanding of God in their little fingers (metaphorically speaking) than I had in my entire body. It was a life-altering event, and taught me that the real power and insight of the gospel comes not so much from academic studies and constructing systematice theologies, but from living gospel precepts, particularly those directly related to the purest form of religion. For what it is worth...

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Great story Wade, kinda puts it all into perspective.

[CASteinman]

I happened to notice an elderly farmer and his wife stopping by my neighbor's, a single mother struggling to support herself and her son, and they dropped off a basket of food on the door step. This small act of love struck me with great force, and let me know that this elderly farmer and his wife had more true understanding of God in their little fingers (metaphorically speaking) than I had in my entire body. It was a life-altering event, and taught me that the real power and insight of the gospel comes not so much from academic studies and constructing systematice theologies, but from living gospel precepts, particularly those directly related to the purest form of religion. For what it is worth...

Your whole post resonates with me... in that while I have not spent years writing a book, something has, over the course of my membership in the Church, slowly distilled upon my soul as the dew from heaven. It is a sort of global realization that has come upon me that the so-called deep doctrines are not really all that deep and that the basics are where the Gospel is. There is a certain way that I have lost my testimony of intellectualism -- and I suppose one could say I have apostatized from that "Church". Oh, I still find those arguments interesting or amusing. But they just don't really carry me across the desert.

I am grateful that God has developed this in me because, though I joined and served in the Church with sincerity and honesty, I nevertheless was somehow (congenitally?) blind to this for a long time. And I am still severely challenged to live up to this knowledge -- that Faith, Repentance, Selfless Love of Others are my orders. That life is full of the sacred and holy -- even every day life. It is all around us.

When I realize I am aware of this but so deeply challenged in it, I feel like saying with Neil Maxwell: I am so grateful that God is merciful even at those times when our knowledge exceeds our performance.

[djholmess]

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, BY obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,106-1-2-1,FF.html

As a non Mormon how else am I supposed to understand the seemingly clear statements in your articles of faith? Saved by obedience, it seems a lot of what you guys have been saying would contradict your own articles of faith. Especially as article 4 says what the FIRST PRINCIPLES are, presumably the 'law and ordinances' back in article 3 cover more than just the first principles.

I know you guys are saying that you do this obedience with the help of God butbarn't you going beyond your own articles of faith when you say that this then means your obedience/works have no deciding factor in your salvation? Doesn't being saved by obedience mean that your obidience is a deciding factor in whether or not you are saved. I presume saved in referring to exaltation in the article of faith.

[JDave]

How can obedience not be a deciding factor? We have the ability to choose what we want. If we choose that we want God, we follow (obey) God. I don't believe the statement that we are saved BY our obedience is a theological statement that the works provided the salvation.

Will everyone be saved?

If not, why not? Those who aren't saved must be 'not saved' for some reason. Is that reason due to their own choices, or did God arbitrarily decide that He didn't want to save them?

Why will anyone be saved? If the Atonement of Jesus Christ doesn't automatically cause every living person to be saved, what is it about the people that are saved that distinguishes them? Is it due to their own choices, or did God arbitrarily decide that He liked them and wanted to save them?

If it is due to our own choices in any way -- then it is by our obedience that we are saved. Not that the obedience has salvific power, it is simply the means by which we CHOOSE to accept the salvific power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

[djholmess]

How can obedience not be a deciding factor?

From my perspective it is simple:

Because no one can do any obedience in the first place:

Romans 8:5-8

⁵For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

⁶ For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

⁷ Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

⁸ So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Because faith, not obedience, is the condition of salvation:

Romans 3:28

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Because this faith itself is called a gift of God; not something I did from my own strength:

Ephesians 2:8

⁸For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

⁹ Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 12:3

³ For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

[wenglund]

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, BY obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

http://www.lds.org/l...6-1-2-1,FF.html

As a non Mormon how else am I supposed to understand the seemingly clear statements in your articles of faith?

An excellent resource for understanding these and all the articles of faith, is a book available online by James Talmage, conveniently titled: "Articles of Faith

Saved by obedience, it seems a lot of what you guys have been saying would contradict your own articles of faith.

Could you clearly point out what you think is the contradiction because, as a Mormon, I don't see it?

Especially as article 4 says what the FIRST PRINCIPLES are, presumably the 'law and ordinances' back in article 3 cover more than just the first principles.

Right. So?

I know you guys are saying that you do this obedience with the help of God but arn't you going beyond your own articles of faith when you say that this then means your obedience/works have no deciding factor in your salvation?

Who is saying this?

Doesn't being saved by obedience mean that your obedience is a deciding factor in whether or not you are saved.

In some respects, yes, in other respects, no. There are various things from which we may be saved, such as saved from our fallen state, saved from death, saved from ignorance, saved from sin, etc.

I presume saved is referring to exaltation in the article of faith.

Not necessarily. It can rightly be interpreted to refer to various things including exaltation (see above).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[CASteinman]

From my perspective it is simple:

Because no one can do any obedience in the first place:

This is a false, extra-biblical sectarian notion that leads to damnation.

[djholmess]

This is a false, extra-biblical sectarian notion that leads to damnation.

Sectarian. How so?

Maybe to be more correct I should have said:

Because in their fallen sinful state no one can do any obedience in the first place;

Only those who have been made spiritually alive can even understand the things of God never mind obey them:

1 Corinthians 2:12-15

¹² Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

¹³ Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

¹⁴ But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This is why Paul says in Romans 3:20 (quoted above) that by works of the law no man will be justified: because no one in their sinful state is able to do such works.

In Galatians 2:21 Paul goes even further and says:

for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.