Calm Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 His grace is what perfects us, our trying to do all we can according to what he asks or commands is our being a vessel his grace can work withinAgain: Yes!
Calm Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 The problem is that some latter day saints want to place works as part of the formula. The way I combat that rational is to ask how many works? Which ones? What is the standard where one more work I get it and One less I don't make it. See that doesn't fit. It doesn't feel right by the spirit. Matt 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hirelabourers into his vineyard. 2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standingidle in the marketplace, 4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. 5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? 7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right,that shall ye receive. 8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. 9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. 11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, 12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. 13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? 14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Calm Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 (edited) DBMormon:It's an ebb and flow thing. Sometimes one facet is promoted for a while then the other facet is promoted for a while.I would agree with this. Often fads appear that must be corrected, so one aspect of a teaching may appear to be seen as more important in the short run as it is emphasized. To avoid this, one needs to look at the comprehensive teachings, each in its proper context and how it relates to all the rest. The Atonement is not just one thing or event, it is the story of God interacting with Man through covenants and it describes the process by which God pulls up Man to stand by his side and be truly one with Him. Edited July 11, 2012 by calmoriah
mbh26 Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 It's an ebb and flow thing. Sometimes one facet is promoted for a while then the other facet is promoted for a while.So perhaps the protestantism that created minds like Sidney Rigdon wasn't always about grace is free and our works are insignificant rags. It seems to me that you would have to emphasize works if you want to motivate people to make the sacrifices early on that are required to build a new religion. How many businessmen would give their workers their paycheck in advance and then trust that the workers would show up the rest of the week out of gratitude for what the businessman has given them?
spartacus Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 So perhaps the protestantism that created minds like Sidney Rigdon wasn't always about grace is free and our works are insignificant rags. It seems to me that you would have to emphasize works if you want to motivate people to make the sacrifices early on that are required to build a new religion.How many businessmen would give their workers their paycheck in advance and then trust that the workers would show up the rest of the week out of gratitude for what the businessman has given them?This may just be an instance of a really bad analogy. This analogy includes nothing of the power of God within you. God does not give you "a ticket to" salvation and nothing else. You don't just have your name written in the Book of LIfe and then left to do the best you can with your own strength and intelligence. He gives you the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is what works in you (to change you) and through you (to good works). So, yeah, this analogy is insufficient.I'm sure mbh26 knows all this, so I'm not correcting. Just pointing out the severe limitation of the analogy and thus questioning its effectiveness for a point.
thatjimguy Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 I simply think both versions can be applied...When I think of the Telestial Kingdom, where all the whoremongers, liars, and others who obviously "don't try" inherit,* I think of God's grace there. When it comes to the greater kingdom for those who try harder and put forth effort. *Notice I do not say "this is where they go" as if it were a physical place? Kindgoms of Glory are just that...glory. A state a being or mind.
wenglund Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 The problem is that some latter day saints want to place works as part of the formula. The way I combat that rational is to ask how many works? Which ones?In answer to your questions, generally it is however many works and the one's that will conform us to the image of Christ.What is the standard where one more work I get it and one less I don't make it.Why are you assuming that there would be such an absurd standard even given that work are a part of the formula?See that doesn't fit.No. What I see is that you haven't thought this through very well.It doesn't feel right by the spirit.What doesn't feel right is your grasp of the issue.So knowing that (works righteousness = salvation) is wrong and also (Grace alone + no effort on the individuals part) is wrong as well What are we left with?We are left with you constructing straw men.Helaman 3:35 Sanctification cometh by yielding our hearts to him. The goal is to be heavenly to change so that we desire sin no more. That is done as we try to follow christ,Yet, following Christ includes doing the works he has commanded of us.repent when we fall down, use his grace, mercy, and atonement to overcome weaknesses, be humble.Yet, repentence is a work. Baptism is a work. The ordinace of the Gift of the Holy Ghost is a work. Enduring to the end is a work. Caring for those in need is a work. Healing the sick is a work. Etc., Etc. How can works not be a part of the formula for saving us from our natural selves and transforming us into the image of Christ?Thanks, -Wade Englund-
The Nehor Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 So spell that out for me,Are the grace and merits of Jesus all you need?Or do you need to first do all you can do I order to be able to then receive the merits of Jesus?You need the former to achieve the latter and you need the latter for the former to have full effect.
Anakin7 Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) We are Saved by way of True Grace [charis] by way of [Accessing/Activating] True Faith [pistis]. In His Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS JEDI KNIGHT Edited July 12, 2012 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 The context of 2 Nephi 25:23 the "All We Can Do " was the Law of Moses. In His Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS JEDI KNIGHT
Anakin7 Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 Read the context starting with verse 16 of 2 Nephi 25 all the way to verse 30 which states what 2 Nephi 25:23 is stating as Eternal Truth. In His Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS JEDI KNIGHT
Damien the Leper Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 I disagree with Luther's sentiments concerning James' Epistle.I see no conflict, atleast theologically, between James 2 and Ephesians 2. No disrespect to our faith heritage, but for me Biblical authority supercedes that of Book of Mormon authority. Furthermore, I do not see 2 Nephi as supporting works over grace. To do so would undermine 1) the meaning of the Resurrection and 2) the meaning of the Atonement.This is how I like to resolve the issue:WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH; WHICH FAITH IS PERFECTED THROUGH OUR WORKS.It isn't over-simplified. It is a formal agreement between statements made by Paul and statements made by James.IMO, the debate of grace vs. works is worthless. To emphasize one over the other is to admit ignorance as to the importance of both. 2
CASteinman Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 IMO, the debate of grace vs. works is worthless. To emphasize one over the other is to admit ignorance as to the importance of both.I agree with your conclusion. I don't believe we are saved by Faith or Works (at least our Works) or even Grace per se, but rather saved by Jesus Christ and His atonement. But of course, the question is "How do we participate in this?"We participate through both Faith and Works which are two side of the same coin. You cannot have Faith without Works and you cannot have Works without Faith. Jesus taught that doing works will lead to Faith and that Faith will produce good works. I thank God for His Grace that permits us and that helps us to participate in Salvation to His Glory and our benefit through both Faith and Works.
spartacus Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 In answer to the OP---------Bible Dictionary (30 years ago) main points:1) Main idea of Grace = “divine means of help or strength”2) “It is through the [divine means of help or strength] of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality”3) “It is likewise through the [divine means of help or strength] of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means.”4) “This [divine means of help or strength] is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.”5) “However, [divine means of help or strength] cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, “It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”2 = customary definition of “grace” I hear by LDS = grace is free gift that results in our resurrection3 = what it seems a lot of posters are referring to = grace empowers us to do good works (traditional Christians would agree with this)4 = this seems to be the weakest part of the definition. It doesn’t seem to connect with 2 & 3. All of a sudden we are talking about salvation (not just resurrection - #2) and we get the phrase “own best efforts” which does not seem to take 3 into account. It sounds here like it is by your OWN (aka- NOT with Grace or with the Holy Spirit) efforts that are essential but insufficient to get you saved or back to Heavenly Father.5 = seems to negate those who have tried to interpret “after all we can do” as “because what we can do can’t help or isn’t enough”. Rather, this seems to strongly indicate that it is indeed AFTER you have completed all you can do (with or without the Holy Spirit since 4 is ambiguous) that Grace BECOMES SUFFICIENT (or “takes up the slack”. 5 certainly states that Grace is NOT sufficient.If we forgive the writers for not connecting the good works through Grace/Holy Spirit in #3 to #4’s requirement of those actions in order for #5’s Grace to become sufficient, then we get the sense that one must accept Christ through repentance (or turning away from our sins – of rebellion – and turn to Christ in submission) and through this we receive Grace/Holy Spirit to be enabled to do the good works that (after receiving the Holy Spirit) we must do to our/Spirit’s utmost in order for Grace to become sufficient and “take up the slack” to get one back to Heavenly Father in the Celestial Kingdom.-------LDS.org Definition of Grace main points:1) Grace = “the help or strength given through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ”2) “the help or strength given through the Atonement…” resurrects everyone who has lived.3) Through this definition of grace, “the Lord also enables those who live His gospel to repent and be forgiven”4) “No one can return to the presence of God without divine grace.”5) “Through the Atonement, we all can be forgiven of our sins; we can become clean before God.”6) “To receive this enabling power, we must obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, which includes having faith in Him, repenting…, being baptized, receiving the Holy Ghost, and trying to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives.”1 = basically equivalent to 30 year old #2 (first part)2 = equivalent of the 30 year old’s #2 (second part)3 = is kind of convoluted. Does Grace enable us to repent and be forgiven AND live His gospel? Or does Grace enable us AFTER we have lived His gospel our whole life to finally complete repentance and be finally forgiven?4 = Grace is necessary to return to the presence of God = Celestial Kingdom5 = A bit vague. Sure it is through the Atonement that we “can” be forgiven and clean, but does it MAKE us forgiven and clean, on its own now, in the future, or after all we can do?6 = Also seems insufficiently connected to the previous statements. “This enabling power” is what? Are they referring to the “enabling power” that results in salvation = back with Heavenly Father? Or are we just referring to Grace in general? The former would be less problematic but either way this statement seems to put Grace in general or salvation AFTER we have repented, baptized, received, and tried the rest of our lives (according to this writing – without Grace). Surely they did not mean this.You emphasized the “trying” in the last part of the definition. But I do not see, technically, how this is different than “effort” in the 30 year old definition. Neither definition indicates that SUCCESSFUL completion of living the gospel or doing good works is necessary but simply the attempt or effort to do so. So I would answer your OP as that they are saying the same thing… unfortunately, not in a very good way.
spartacus Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) I know this is long but I think it brings up several important points for this thread's overall discussion...So far we have been discussing faith and works in a very philosophical, somewhat theological way. Where the rubber meets the road is where ideas get fleshed out in reality. Orthopraxy (practice) is a physical instantiation of orthodoxy (theology) and tends to shed clarity to theological discussions.Whatever our theological understanding of God’s empowerment in these, the LDS Church states that certain actions are necessary for salvation, thus the “Saving ordinances”. Now we could say that repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy Spirit, are all obvious living manifestations or inevitable fruits of God’s impression on us when we “converted” and so claim that they are not really works in the “I’m going to heaven cause I earned it by doing these things” kind of way.But the LDS Church makes a whole other issue out of even these rudimentary events by claiming sole authority to do these in an effective way. No matter how much you have been impressed upon by the Spirit through God’s creation, your sense of morality, your known failings, and the awareness that morality in your heart was put there by a moral and thus just and judging God, and EVEN IF you have also read and believed the Bible and EVEN IF you have also read the Book of Mormon AND the DnC AND the BoA, you CANNOT do these ordinances effectively without the LDS Church’s authority in the form of a priesthood holder. So even the “Saving ordinances” are impossible without (not your own but the Church’s) works. This is an interesting aspect of the works/grace issue because it takes it out of the individual arena and not only into group dependence but a complication for God’s work on Earth. But that’s for another time.Then there are the actions required not just to be saved but to be exalted. Now when we are talking about being saved there are two aspects for LDS theology – resurrection and returning to Heavenly Father – and, technically a third one of eternal progression/increase/life. We already noted that all will be resurrected by no benefit of their own action. However, whether or not we return to the Father is critically dependent on both Grace and our own Works. Grace cannot do it alone, but neither can our own Works.We could get bogged down again in ideas but the rubber meets the road to the Celestial Kingdom (and Exaltation) in all the actions required through the LDS Church after the Saving ordinances. I know the following are included in the term Saving Ordinances but, since the first ones are for being in a heaven, these I single out for going up in heavens. Temple ordinances of endowment, baptism for the dead, and marriage sealing are all required for going to the Celestial Kingdom to “live with” Heavenly Father which is what traditional Christians think of as the only heaven and the meaning of salvation. In the LDS Church these ordinances must be done to get back to Heavenly Father and/or eternal increase (marriage sealing may not be required for the former but certainly for the latter).Sometimes this is expressed by LDS – not just the basic saving ordinances, but also the Temple ordinances for exaltation. But often it seems, there is no real discussion of all the actions required to be able to do these ordinances in the Temple in a conversation about salvation and heaven, at least with outsiders. So Tithing, Chastity, Sabbath, Not Stealing, Not Lying, Honoring your Parents, Not Murdering, Obeying the Word of Wisdom, Magnifying your Calling, Church Attendance, and more are all actions required to be deemed “worthy” to go to the Temple to receive your exaltation ordinances.People argue if accepting Jesus Christ is a work or not. In the traditional Christian position, it is not considered so – as much as taking a gift that is handed to you would be a work. The idea is that it is not a work you do in order to qualify for salvation, but simply the necessary exchange between the sinner and the savior for salvation to occur. The other works, however, are argued over because they do not seem necessary beyond accepting Christ’s Atonement to be saved. LDS believe otherwise. So it is these real life actions that we have to speak about when we discuss grace and works.We especially have to consider these ordinances and all the works required to GET TO perform these ordinances when we speak of the LDS Church’s teachings in action on works and grace.Two Notes:First, traditional Christians and LDS certainly take Jesus’ teachings to obey His commandments differently. Neither denies they are to be done, but there is often a difference in the view of how these actions relate to salvation. There is also the issue of the LDS claim to continued revelation which has not only brought about this difference in view of the commandments and salvation and works and grace but also brought about these specific ordinances and the specific works required to be able to perform these ordinances. While Christians would see many of the general life actions that are required by the LDS Church for Temple attendance and ordination as good works that come about from being born again in Christ, the issue comes most clearly with the LDS Church authoritative actions and unique requirements for unique rituals for unique salvation = exaltation, or simply returning to full relationship with Heavenly Father = salvation in the traditional Christian sense.Second, something we have to take into account when we are discussing grace and works is whether we are talking about salvation or sanctification. It often seems that LDS conflate the two. This leads traditional Christians to believe that LDS believe you are not saved until you are sanctified. Since sanctification is a work of the Holy Spirit and leads to and comes about through good works this leads traditional Christians to believe that LDS salvation is worked for. LDS actually state this for all intensive purposes. On this thread, there have been statements that seem to equate the changing of how we live and conforming to God’s commandments to being saved at all. Wade Englund’s last post is a great example. For traditional Christians, however, one is SAVED immediately by the merits of Christ alone upon being born again, and THEN sanctified by the work of the Holy Spirit in each of us and through the good works the Holy Spirit brings about through us over one’s lifetime, to be perfected and finished in the resurrection.Thank you if you made it this far.May God bless you with the Son and Holy Spirit Edited July 12, 2012 by spartacus
JDave Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 I agree that there is blurring and conflating of salvation and sanctification. It can cause difficulties when discussing soteriology and especially when comparing to other Christian beliefs. Within the LDS religion, and especially in the real lives (orthopraxy) of the members, I don't see much of a problem. People understand that we are coming to Christ and relying on him. The precise theological definition of order and manner is not needed to have faith in Christ and do His works.In regards to the OP, I agree with those who state that emphasis will change with time. And also it is very important to take the whole context into account -- the context of the discourse in 2 Nephi 25 and the context of all the prophets' teachings on the matter. 1
DBMormon Posted July 12, 2012 Author Posted July 12, 2012 You need the former to achieve the latter and you need the latter for the former to have full effect.agreeOne needs Grace to make improvements in one's self that go beyond one's own ability to make for the change that is a real progress in becoming more then the natural man. One needs works because they are one indicator and result of real faith (Faith without works is dead). In our practicing(works) we gain strength (grace) and become better then what we are. If God didn't give us commandments, or if we weren't expected to keep them then very few of us would be trying to be anything more then what we are it would have made little sense to leave God to begin with other then to gain a body and there would have been easier ways to do that. This life is about learning and gaining experience.
wenglund Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) Second, something we have to take into account when we are discussing grace and works is whether we are talking about salvation or sanctification. It often seems that LDS conflate the two. This leads traditional Christians to believe that LDS believe you are not saved until you are sanctified. Since sanctification is a work of the Holy Spirit and leads to and comes about through good works this leads traditional Christians to believe that LDS salvation is worked for. LDS actually state this for all intensive purposes. On this thread, there have been statements that seem to equate the changing of how we live and conforming to God’s commandments to being saved at all. Wade Englund’s last post is a great example. For traditional Christians, however, one is SAVED immediately by the merits of Christ alone upon being born again, and THEN sanctified by the work of the Holy Spirit in each of us and through the good works the Holy Spirit brings about through us over one’s lifetime, to be perfected and finished in the resurrection.I agree with and very much appreciate most all of what you said, though I wouldn't say that the saints are conflating salvation and sanctification since, in some respects sanctification is salvation. It may not be salvation from past sins (which is how traditional Christians tend to think of salvation), though it is salvation from ignorance, salvation from the natural and unglorified man, and salvation from the veil that separates man from God, etc.This is why I said earlier that much of the grace/works debate is really over semantics/language, and thus doesn't rightly lend itself to dogmatism, though sadly we find a whole lot of dogmatizing going on--too oft at the expense of living lives in grace and of good works....not that I am suggesting this about you. I don't.Thanks, -Wade Englund- Edited July 12, 2012 by wenglund
Damien the Leper Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 I do not wish to underestimate the membership of the Church. However, there does seem to be a still existing ignorance that works comes before grace. Or at least some monstrosity of the sort.Furthermore, it is nauseating how often the critics still use the tactic to back 'less knowledgeable' members into a corner. This is often a familiar tactic that I have seen at the Mesa Temple Easter Pageant and the Christmas lights. The anti's there seem to be more of the predator flavor than that of a person wishing to engage in dialogue.
Calm Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) I would agree that some members do have a less than informed view of works/grace. I don't know if it is the sense of efficiency that comes from approaching life with a checklist or something else, but it does appear that some miss the message of God's gifts. I don't know anyone though who, if they stop and think about it, sees heaven as a deserved reward in the sense of a fair exchange of work for payment.The anti's there seem to be more of the predator flavor than that of a person wishing to engage in dialogue. It is unfortunate when this happens in any context because the usual result in my experience is less thinking about one's position, not more, something that I see as undesirable in any field of endeavour....except maybe for something like jumping off a diving board. Edited July 12, 2012 by calmoriah 1
DBMormon Posted July 12, 2012 Author Posted July 12, 2012 You emphasized the “trying” in the last part of the definition. But I do not see, technically, how this is different than “effort” in the 30 year old definition.I see those who emphasize works as saying there is a certain amount of good deeds or a certain level of effort that is the minimum standard to get back to God, or that one has to do the very best at all times and if one fails to "do all they can" then they fail.I don't see it that way. If we are honest, none of us do all we can do. Could you have stayed up 1/2 hour longer last night and baked bread for the widows? sure. You didn't do all you could, grace can't help you, and you can't make it back to the Celestial Kingdom. For those who define "after all you can do" this way, I can't go along.Look at the sacrament prayers... Only the bread prayer asks us to keep the commandments and also uses the word willing prior to listing the do's. The water prayer doesn't mention willing and says nothing of keeping the commandments. I find that interesting. To me WILLING means to have a desire and to be trying knowing that we will fall short of that standard of keeping all the commandments and doing all we can do. God sets the standard of Perfection but allows us to not be perfect and still have his grace and still get back to him if we exercising faith, repenting, trying, and have a desire to get there. i see the gospel as much more open armed in my perception. I just see no litmus test of perfection or list of good works requirements one must reach in this life to access his grace and be exhalted (outside of the Doctrine of Christ - Faith, Repentance, Baptism, endure to the end by pressing forward with steadfastness feasting on the word of God)
CASteinman Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 Jesus saves you. But you have to believe and you have to try. Take one of the three elements (The Atonement of Christ, Faith and Works) away, and you will find yourself in out in the cold.
DBMormon Posted July 12, 2012 Author Posted July 12, 2012 You guys keep acting like I am ignoring works... I am not, they are part of the equation as they demostrate where are heart is. Works don't pay the debt. You can't put a certain number of works in the savings jar. It is about where one's heart is and their willingness to follow Christ.I am not a "saved by Grace alone without anything on our part" guy!!!!
Calm Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 I like CS Lewis' analogy of faith and works being the two blades of a pair of scissors, one blade alone isn't going to cut anything.... 2
KevinG Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 I do not wish to underestimate the membership of the Church. However, there does seem to be a still existing ignorance that works comes before grace. Or at least some monstrosity of the sort.I have contemplated this appearance because I have been backed into a corner by predatory evangelism before, My conclusion and that of some of my fellow priesthood holders who have discussed this with me is there are a few things about Mormonism that present this appearance to outsiders.1. We speak very reverently of Christ and God and take pains to avoid vain repetitions of His name. We are not likely to have exhortations, t-shirts, bumper stickers or outward casual references to Jesus and therefore can appear as though we don't discuss Him often.2. We preach and teach those areas where we need repentance and so obedience and service are stressed often in our lessons.3. We teach others things that are unique to us, restoration, prophets, etc. so it may appear that those are more important to us than the central doctrines of the atonement and a living God.In my conversations with Baptists, Catholics and Evangelicals I have started emphasizing the basics of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and what we have in common before I venture into the more peculiar or esoteric parts of our religion (which of course the critics would love to keep focusing on as a distraction).
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