Multi Level Marketing & The Church

[ERayR]

While I don't think MLMs are very great, I don't think that every woman selling mary kay, avon, or Lia Sophia jewelry should be sanctioned by the church for participating in something evil.

I gave you a rep point for this and would have given a couple more but it wouldn't let me so will give them this way 1 1.

[ERayR]

I have been contacted by people sucked into these things so many times. I believe the prophet should publicly annonce in October's general conference that anyone engaged Level-Marketing scams will be sent to outer darkness for all eternity.

The old something for nothing problem. Who is more culpable the extender or extendee.

[mosterlow]

Of course it is an endorsement. It is not like he is some low level scrub trying to con us out of a buck, he is the leader of all those low level scum. Every MLM member will now have this in their sales pitch to recruit their next victims, shame on the church for advocating MLM's.

[Bob Crockett]

Legal does not equal ethical. I am getting way too charged up about this.....

What ethics? Where may I read them?

Those who condemn MLM should explain how it violates what ethics.

People get a lot of psychic value working in this business arrangement. Whereas I dislike being tricked into an Amway presentation, which has happened, I would find it unthinkable to condemn my neighbor for his involvement in it. Much less legislate against it.

My libertarian nature is causing me to rise and protest. But you say it is unethical. That implies a system of ethics. What are they?

As Christians we should be slow to condemn an honest businessman. There's a lot of businesses out there that you might find questionable -- mortgage relief firms; payday loan firms; real estate agents; personal injury lawyer; car salesmen; furniture store owners in poor neighborhoods; used car lot owners. I find it astounding that members of the Church judge each other by reason of that stuff. We are free to act for ourselves. Freedom in our business arrangements leads to freedom of choice in a lot of other things. Freedom also means the opportunity to make bad choices -- the bad real estate investment, the bad job, the bad MLM investment. If MLMs are really that "bad," then we need them as legitimate choices.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Bob Crockett

[cinepro]

If I ever start a religion, I'm going to make it as much like an MLM as possible. Except that instead of people getting money for recruiting their friends, they'll get blessings in the afterlife.

I'll get the money.

[Whiskeypete]

I've posted this before, but it seems appropriate:

A certain man died and found himself at the Pearly Gates. He noticed that the gates were closed and locked. Wanting to get in, he knocked long and loudly on the gates. After several minutes of knocking, the gates open slightly and St. Peter sticks his head out.

"Can I help you?" St. Peter asks.

The man states that the would like to come into Heaven.

"Oh, I'm sorry," St. Peter says, "We're closed. Completely out of room. Not a single vacancy. You have do go down to the 'other' place, if you know what I mean. We didn't anticipate so many righteous souls."

This made the man furious. He yelled back at St. Peter, "What do you mean you're closed? I've lived righteously all my life and didn't do any of the fun things that my friends were doing just so I could get into Heaven. I could have been living it up. And now I have to go to you-know-where because of poor planning on your part. Isn't there anything you can do?"

St. Peter thought for a moment and the said, "Sit on that bench over there and wait. There is something I have always wanted to try."

The man sits on the bench and waits. After a few minutes, the gates of Heaven burst open and thousands of souls pour out of Heaven, rip off their halos and dive off the clouds. After the rush ends, St. Peter comes out smiling and says, "It looks like we have a few openings. Come on in."

"What did you do?" the man asked. "How did you get them to leave?"

"Easy!" St. Peter explained. "I just went to where all of the Mormons were, told them that there was a new multi-level-marketing opportunity opening up in Hell, and if they left now they could get in on the ground floor."

[cursor]

As Christians we should be slow to condemn an honest businessman.

This is NOT about potential in-house condemnation. Not to be unnecessarily picky' date=' but it seems to me that the concern should be about any potential negative impact that such an assignment might have on the target mission. How might such an assignment be publicly perceived, [i']outside LDS circles?

[The Nehor]

This is NOT about potential in-house condemnation. Not to be unnecessarily picky, but it seems to me that the concern should be about any potential negative impact that such an assignment might have on the target mission. How might such an assignment be publicly perceived, outside LDS circles?

I'm guessing that this message board will be most of the publicity. I can name only one Mission President currently serving by name. I'm guessing non-LDS will know even fewer.

[bluebell]

I'm guessing that this message board will be most of the publicity. I can name only one Mission President currently serving by name. I'm guessing non-LDS will know even fewer.

I agree.

I don't think this will be "perceived" at all by non-members, especially considering that a lot of people have family and friends who sell products in MLM businesses and it's likely that, regardless of what they think of the business model itself, they don't view the people who work for them as being evil.

[rodheadlee]

I don't know but I can't find an Avon lady when I need one. Skin So Soft rocks for keep noseums and skeeters from eating my wife alive.

[Thinking]

While I don't think MLMs are very great, I don't think that every woman selling mary kay, avon, or Lia Sophia jewelry should be sanctioned by the church for participating in something evil.

Avon is not MLM.

[bluebell]

Avon is not MLM.

My mistake. I assumed it was set up similar to Mary Kay.

We can trade it out for Stampin' Up (or whatever that is called).

[Thinking]

Those who condemn MLM should explain how it violates what ethics.

There are about 7 billion people in the world. Suppose I start a MLM and recruit 2 distributors. Any Product sold by those distributors will generate a commission for me and them. I encourage them to do the same so they can make money off of their downline sales. Of course I will make money off of their downline sales too. What I don’t explain to them is that their probability of recruiting two distributors like I did is half of the probability that I had because there are now two people recruiting. In the third level there will be four people recruiting, and so on. With each level it becomes harder and harder to recruit, yet this is not explained to potential distributors. If each distributor recruits 2 other distributors, the entire population of the planet will be distributors before the 33rd level is completed. Recruiting 3 other distributors will maximize it at 22 levels, while 5 recruits each will limit it to 15 levels. There are more distributors at the bottom level than all the other levels combined, so more than half of the distributors have no downline commissions.

Multiple levels also drives prices up so the distributors at each level can make money. For example, I buy aftershave lotion from Avon (direct sales, not MLM). A 3.4 ounce bottle is $2.25. Nu Skin sells a 1.7 ounce bottle for $18.10.

http://shop.avon.com/shop/product.aspx?level1_id=300&level2_id=309&pdept_id=374&cat_type=C&pf_id=10300

https://www.nuskin.com/content/nuskin/en_US/products/nuskin/face_care/mens_care/01101457.html

[Calm]

Multiple levels also drives prices up so the distributors at each level can make money. For example, I buy aftershave lotion from Avon (direct sales, not MLM). A 3.4 ounce bottle is $2.25. Nu Skin sells a 1.7 ounce bottle for $18.10.

Agreed it drives it up, but how is that unethical? No one is forced to buy the product, if someone continues to purchase it then they must feel they are getting their money's worth even if you don't think they are.

They would do better, imo, if they had a decent product to use another business model and drop the prices to increase the sales, but again people can choose whether or not to buy it.

Edited June 28, 2012 by calmoriah

[Thinking]

No one is forced to buy the product

Back in the 90's, a neighbor worked for Nu Skin in the warehouse. She told us that part of her employment contract stipulated that if Nu Skin made a product that she used, she was required to buy it from Nu Skin.

[Calm]

Back in the 90's, a neighbor worked for Nu Skin in the warehouse. She told us that part of her employment contract stipulated that if Nu Skin made a product that she used, she was required to buy it from Nu Skin.

So she can quit her job if she doesn't like the product.

[Hayds]

Your transparent attempt at denigrating Brother Roney and the Church is duly noted.

Have you researched NuSkin and the many court cases and other ethical dilemmas it has been involved in? Possibly some people are questioning this since NuSkin is known to not have a perfect record "when being honest in their dealings with their fellow man."

[Hayds]

If I ever start a religion, I'm going to make it as much like an MLM as possible. Except that instead of people getting money for recruiting their friends, they'll get blessings in the afterlife.

I'll get the money.

Comment deleted as I deemed it was in poor taste after posting.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Hayds

[ERayR]

Have you researched NuSkin and the many court cases and other ethical dilemmas it has been involved in? Possibly some people are questioning this since NuSkin is known to not have a perfect record "when being honest in their dealings with their fellow man."

The OP was concerned with MLM and insinuated that it was somehow nefarious and the church's calling him as a mission president it was tacitly endorsing something bad.

I had not paid enough attention to NUSkin to know of any law suits. If I get time I will look into them. Law suits in and of themselves are not necessarily barometers of a companies ethics as there is always somebody trying to get money through frivolous law suits.

I took the time to do a quick Google search and found both testimonials and criticism. The lawsuits looked like the usual run of the mill lawsuits that are common for a company of this size.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't like MLM but I do not believe that makes them unethical just because they are MLM.

Edited June 28, 2012 by ERayR

[Hayds]

The OP was concerned with MLM and insinuated that it was somehow nefarious and the church's calling him as a mission president it was tacitly endorsing something bad.

I had not paid enough attention to NUSkin to know of any law suits. If I get time I will look into them. Law suits in and of themselves are not necessarily barometers of a companies ethics as there is always somebody trying to get money through frivolous law suits.

I took the time to do a quick Google search and found both testimonials and criticism. The lawsuits looked like the usual run of the mill lawsuits that are common for a company of this size.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't like MLM but I do not believe that makes them unethical just because they are MLM.

I understand what you are saying. I have worked in corporate environments my whole life, and have witnessed plenty of unethical behavior being permitted and committed. That being the case, it was all well within the legal definition of the law. I am not singling Roney out, but MLMs in general. I believe highly unethical practices can be employed within the bounds of legality. The million dollar question: Is unethical behavior acceptable if no laws were broken? You could easily argue "yes", but does that still mean it's OK?

I can see where people might question someone like this being called to MP even if he did not break any laws. People like Roney and the business model he represents are very polarizing.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Hayds

[Buzzard]

I do not want to come off as judging the hearts of men, especially the Lords anointed, which this brother has just become. Many good men and women are involved at some level in these schemes, and most of them are employees, not founders. But let me tell you a little story....

I work for a company that makes and distributes many types of merchandise, but sells very little of it directly, being primarily a wholesaler. But when it was founded many years ago, it's first product was an organic, whole food vitamin. It's good stuff, we still make and sell it today, and you can find it for sale on my companies website as well as other sites and in primarily health food stores. It retails for about sixty bucks for a months worth, fairly pricey for vitamins, I won't try to explain why we think it's worth it. We make a decent but not huge profit at that price.

But back when the company was young and struggling to find lines of distribution for the product, they tried an MLM scheme. Did not work all that well, though there are still a few grandfathered distributors left over from that era. But in order to fund the levels of commission required to be paid in an MLM and make a profit for the company, it sold at retail back then for $180, or three times what the "normal" retail is today. That's one reason why MLM's are not ethical.

The other one is that the emphasis is not on selling the product, but in recruiting your downline. This means your ward members, relatives, business associates, and people you just bump into are not potential friends, or even potential investigators, they are potential distributors who you are going to make money off of. I honestly don't think that's the relationship Christ has in mind for us and every single one of our fellow beings.

Don't take my word for it, what do I know? But a BYU professor who was recruited into an MLM and being a business professor, really tried to work the MLM system for an entire year runs a website. He's even more strident and in your face about this than I. His site is www.mlm-thetruth.com . Might be worth a gander, IMHO,

[Calm]

I honestly don't think that's the relationship Christ has in mind for us and every single one of our fellow beings.

I think it can be problematic, the only ones I know in MLMs that don't make others too uncomfortable around them from time to time are in it only to get the product for themselves at the cheaper cost and only mention it to friends in passing unless the friends ask for more detail. As soon as someone starts getting excited about making extra money off of it, even if it's not because they are pushing it, but because friends have heard of it elsewhere and then come to them about it, it seems to cause a great deal of anxiety and worry for them, more than it's worth.

If someone has a good product, I think it is unfortunate if they decide to go the MLM route instead of taking the time and putting in the effort to develop a market for themselves so that they can benefit more people. But my understanding is that it is an easy way to get a company going and to get funding quickly as every employee becomes part of the advertising and sales dept. so I can understand the temptation to take a short cut.

Edited June 28, 2012 by calmoriah

[Storm Rider]

I recently learned that Nu Skin founder Blake Roney has been called to serve as a mission president for the LDS Church in France.

For those who have never heard of Nu Skin, it is a company which distributes products using the multi-level marketing (MLM) model. Personally, I believe that MLM companies are unethical and should be illegal. Many people agree with me, but there are many who defend the MLM model.

Since it just called Roney to serve as a mission president, it would seem that the LDS Church does not object to the MLM model.

What do you think about MLM companies, and should a member’s involvement affect how he/she is allowed to serve in the LDS Church?

I know Blake; I served with him in the France Toulouse Mission many years ago. First of all, you make some leaps of logic that are faulty. The Church called Blake Roney to be the mission president, not NuSkin. If I worked for GM and was called to serve in the Church it would be just as unwise to assume the Church was recommending GM to everyone. Nor does it mean that the Church approved of the way GM made cars or ran its business. What it would mean is that I was called to serve and I had worked at GM. You see the difference?

As far as MLMs are concerned I would agree with others that they should be banned. Frankly, I think it is a dishonest way to do business, but until the government chooses to act agasint these types of structures we are stuck with their existence.

[halconero]

Last conference Larry Echo Hawk was called as a Seventy. He resigned from his post in the Obama administration in order to do so.

Therefore, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints endorses Barack Obama.

[Thinking]

I know Blake; I served with him in the France Toulouse Mission many years ago. First of all, you make some leaps of logic that are faulty. The Church called Blake Roney to be the mission president, not NuSkin. If I worked for GM and was called to serve in the Church it would be just as unwise to assume the Church was recommending GM to everyone. Nor does it mean that the Church approved of the way GM made cars or ran its business. What it would mean is that I was called to serve and I had worked at GM. You see the difference?

Your example uses faulty logic because founding/managing a company is different from working for a company.

Suppose I start a business and hire you to work for me. You are an excellent worker – always on time, honest & hardworking. I, on the other hand, engage in less than honest business practices. For example, I order production materials that are lower in quality than I claim to be using. An investigation reveals my deception and I am ordered to pay a fine. You had no knowledge of the deception. Should you be held responsible too?

As far as MLMs are concerned I would agree with others that they should be banned. Frankly, I think it is a dishonest way to do business, but until the government chooses to act agasint these types of structures we are stuck with their existence.

Does the Church allow its members to participate in whatever the government will allow? It takes a stand against other things that the government allows, why not MLM’s?