The Nehor Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 I think the fact that there are two commands in tension: "Eat meat sparingly" and "Whosoever forbid".....tells us that there is no right amount that applies to everyone unlike alcohol which amount is zero.No amount right for anyone at the current time.
thesometimesaint Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 A small amount of alcohol is present in any fermented product, including those wonderful yeast breads your mom made you.. Even the baking process doesn't remove all of it. Further even our own intestines make some, a very small amount, in the digestion process.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 If God didn't want me to eat animals he shouldn't have made them out of delicious meat.I suspect that there is no eating of animals in heaven which has clarified my list of priorities when I get there. My first order of business on arrival will be creating a tree that grows steaks.And Bacon.
The Nehor Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 Not the Old Testament Gods.Maybe they were just making sure their people didn't eat it all.
IloveaMormon Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 I was under the impression meat was supposed to be used sparingly and grains were encouraged. It's unfortunate some people believe 'God put the animals here for us to eat' so this gives humans permission to be gluttons and sacrifice water, land and restrict proper food for others to satisfy our elitist appetites.Take into acount this simple fact:It takes 24 Gallons of water to produce one pound of potatoes.It takes 5,214 gallons of water to produce one pound of beef.God made us stewards of the earth. We are stewards of our own bodies as well.I suggest being open to having a Sunday family dinner after church with fresh fruits and vegetables and beans and rice. Yes, beans and rice- a 'lamanite way of eating', the staple food of most countries (who are alarmingly poorer yet so much healthier than us Americans by the way).We could choose to stop equating eating meat with social status and being 'manly' or strong. It's not strong to have blocked arteries. It's not manly to have erectile disfunction because of high cholesterol. Cholesterol is non existent in the plant world. Why not eat mostly whole foods like veggies, fruits, grains, nuts seeds and herbs and meat as an occassional condiment and save ourselves a coronary?Health is wealth. Below is a bit I got from wiki about one of the largest cattle production facilities in the U.S. It is my hope someday the church will go green and raise their cattle humanly- grass fed and natural.Deseret Ranches refers to the ranching operations of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Central Florida. Deseret Ranch is home to 90 ranchers, their families, and 44,000 head of beef cattle.[5][2] It is a for profit operation and is not a normal part of the humanitarian efforts of the LDS Church. Gordon B. Hinckley, former president of the church has said, "We have felt that good farms, over a long period, represent a safe investment where the assets of the Church may be preserved and enhanced, while at the same time they are available as an agricultural resource to feed people should there come a time of need.The LDS Church does not disclose the revenue of the ranch, but it is known that in year 2000 they moved 16 million pounds (7300 t) of calves, which at the time translated to about $16 million in revenue.
Hamba Tuhan Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 Not the Old Testament Gods.A&W in Indonesia serves '100% pure beef bacon'.
Anijen Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 I feel sorry for all the pain vegetables and fruit have to go through. I say save a vegetable eat a steak!On the serious side, a lot of food my doctor tells me to avoid (potatoes, pasta, IOW carbs) I can not eat, but meat I can. Just following doctors orders...
KevinG Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 (edited) . It is my hope someday the church will go green and raise their cattle humanly- grass fed and natural.The Central Florida church ranches use grass feed and grow free range cattle. I knew one of the ranchers whose full time job it is to plant grass for cattle feed. Edited May 18, 2012 by KevinG
KevinG Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 (edited) There is no tension.18 And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;Whoever forbids vegetarianism is not ordained of God.Reverse that. http://www.lds.org/e...-word-of-wisdomIt means that forbidding people to eat meat is not of God.We realize that the Word of Wisdom does not advocate total vegetarianism when we read another scripture:“And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;“For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.” (D&C 49:18–19; see also 1 Tim. 4:1–3.) Edited May 18, 2012 by KevinG
cacheman Posted May 18, 2012 Author Posted May 18, 2012 ...... I don't get Vegans at all, it doesn't even look healthy as a diet.How so? There are vegan world class athletes; gold medalists, champion UFC fighters, cyclists, endurance runners, triathletes, etc... I am also an endurance runner, play basketball weekly with people half my age, and spend a good amount of my summer doing physical labor in the sun. I don't find it at all difficult to meet my nutritional requirements or maintain energy levels on a vegan diet. Of course, everyone is different, but there is a lot of evidence that many people can thrive on a diet that contains no animal products.cacheman
thesometimesaint Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 From the American Dietetic Association vegans are advised to make sure they have adequate sources of vitamin B12, iron, vitamin D, calcium, iodine, and omega-3 fatty acids. It would appear that the rules that apply to vegetarians even apply more so to vegans.
cacheman Posted May 18, 2012 Author Posted May 18, 2012 The Central Florida church ranches use grass feed and grow free range cattle. I knew one of the ranchers whose full time job it is to plant grass for cattle feed.Do they finish them on grass, or do they finish them in a feedlot? Most all cow / calf operations use grass feed. The terms 'free range' or 'grass fed beef', apply to beef that receive the majority of their feed from forages, and is allowed a certain stocking rate. I don't believe that Deseret Ranch qualifies for either of those terms. Like most cattle producers, they are raising calves on grass and forages only until they are about 7-9 months old. At that point, they are shipped to feedlots where the real weight gain takes place. In fact, I do believe the LDS church owns some feedlots, but I'm not positive. cacheman
cacheman Posted May 18, 2012 Author Posted May 18, 2012 From the American Dietetic Association vegans are advised to make sure they have adequate sources of vitamin B12, iron, vitamin D, calcium, iodine, and omega-3 fatty acids. It would appear that the rules that apply to vegetarians even apply more so to vegans.ADA’s position, published in the July issue of the Journal of the American Dietetic Association, represents the Association’s official stance on vegetarian diets:It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life-cycle including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood and adolescence and for athletes.http://www.eatright.org/Media/content.aspx?id=1233
Log Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 It means that forbidding people to eat meat is not of God."To abstain from meat" is literally the opposite of "to eat meat."
thesometimesaint Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 cacheman:http://www.eatright....nt.aspx?id=1233Already knew that. However I think the key is "well planned". Simply removing all meat products from a diet won't make you any healthier, and if not well planned can lead to serious health problems. If someone wants to dedicate the extra time and effort that it takes it's fine with me. With Vegans, my concerns are more than doubled. Plus the fact is I just don't want to use my remaining days on this planet worried about it, maybe if I was 40 years younger. Especially when adding a just little meat to my diet takes care of those nutritional concerns.
Traela Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 I have lived as a vegetarian for many years. Nowadays I do eat the odd piece of fish. My wife is also a vegetarian.In my experience most church members violate the Word of Wisdom because they eat far too much meat. It always makes me chuckle when these members will condemn those who drink coca cola while stuffing a hamburger in their mouths. We will be held accountable for all the flesh we consume.So you judge people's regular diet by what they eat at a party/activity? Interesting.
cacheman Posted May 18, 2012 Author Posted May 18, 2012 cacheman:Already knew that. However I think the key is "well planned". Simply removing all meat products from a diet won't make you any healthier, and if not well planned can lead to serious health problems. If someone wants to dedicate the extra time and effort that it takes it's fine with me. With Vegans, my concerns are more than doubled. Plus the fact is I just don't want to use my remaining days on this planet worried about it, maybe if I was 40 years younger. Especially when adding a just little meat to my diet takes care of those nutritional concerns.This is your statement that I was responding to:I don't get Vegans at all, it doesn't even look healthy as a diet.Nobody is saying that removing all meat products will automatically make you healthier. It appears that you actually do agree that a vegan diet can be healthy.cacheman
BlueDreams Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 I've been a vegetarian for 10 years now. In that time I've had meat only a handful of times (around 8 times) and mostly because I had to...I don't enjoy the taste anymore (it has an aftertaste that I can only describe as dead) or the after effect (heaviness/pained stomach)). So yeah, I believe in meat eaten very sparingly . That said, why I went vegetarian had nothing to do with religion. Over time my faith has effected my attitude about being veg though.Overall meat seems superflous to me. It's overeaten in the U.S, is wasteful, and is largely produced in inhumane and environmentally damaging methods. If I were starving and there was me and a (non-egg laying) chicken, I'd eat the chicken. But my relatively affluent western life means that I've never experienced severe hunger or malnutrition. I have no extreme health problems that would increase the need for meat (like severe anemia or something). More so, I'm healthy, generally have more energy than most people, and I'm happy. I'm also aware that my diet is tied to increased life expectancy, decreases my liklihood for cancer/heart problems, and is associated with lower weight. So why would I eat it? The only other reason is indulgence (ie. it tastes good/your missing out). It's like telling a mormon who's never had coffee they're missing out. I don't even remember what most meat tastes like.So I strongly believe that meat should be limited in consumption. BUT I allow people the choice to decide what that means for them. In short I don't tell people whether or not they shouldn't eat meat. I expect the same courtesy. So overall, I feel my diet is fairly up to par with what I find in the WoW and other subsequent scripture...though it could still use some improvement. Others can figure that out for themselves. The only time I've told someone what to eat is if they've asked for dietary help from me and if they keep badgering me about being a vegetarian. I'll usually show them something to give them the idea that maybe it's not that bad of an idea.TSS:Honestly, I think the "planning" recommended by doctors for vegetarians is really overrated, especially considering the severe dietary-related health problems that are widespread in the overall population. For one, it's really not that hard to get what you need when you're ovo-lacto vegetarian. To go vegan....probably a little harder, but not much. Especially today where most cereals/food stuffs are fortified. My "planning" as a young teen for going veg was pretty straight forward: stop eating meat and try new foods. I credit much of my increased food pallet, ability to cook, and increased awareness of what I shove in my mouth to being a vegetarian and having to tell people that I was. People would quiz me on how I got my protein, iron, etc and I neeeded answers. Ironically, most people were quizzing me about my diet and nutritional concerns while they ate a cheeseburger, fast food, or junkfood. More Ironically is that many people, when wanting to eat something healthier, would look to what i was eating and get that.With luv,BD
BCSpace Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 (edited) I think the fact that there are two commands in tension: "Eat meat sparingly" and "Whosoever forbid".....tells us that there is no right amount that applies to everyone unlike alcohol which amount is zero.When looking at the D&C 49 verses in context it specifically seems to say that eating meat without need is wrong. Perhaps that's the 'right amount' for everyone.Verse 21: And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.Sure. But again, "need" is undefined and so the actual amounts are going to be up to the individual. IIRC, there was an Ensign article in the early 70's that put forth the notion of eating meat every day, albeit just a couple of ounces, to ward off hunger and overeating. I myself tried the Atkins diet in it's heyday and lost 70 lbs. I did induction almost exclusively and my cholesterol and other indicators remained very low. Most diets now are very Atkins-like and seem to understand that grain (carbs) are the staff of life. The more active your life, the smaller the staff you need. Eating all the meat you can handle is never recommended and in fact the larger meat portions of today are lamented compared to say 50 years ago (quarter pounders used to be 1/6 or 1/8 lb). That's how I've reconciled things and I am very comfortable with it. Edited May 18, 2012 by BCSpace
thesometimesaint Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 BlueDreams:My wife and I went nearly all veggie when we were first married. It was all we could afford. It is extra work and takes extra planning to make sure the diet is well balanced, and has eye, and taste appeal. I still enjoy the occasional good steak. My daughter-in-law is a vegetarian. So she constantly works at it.I don't believe in the wanton killing of any animal. But when faced with killing a cow or going hungry, Bye Bye Bessie.Be aware that modern agriculture has removed a great deal of the nutrition of our fruits, veggies, and grains when compared to just a few decades ago. Plus the so called fortification only adds back in a small percentage of that loss. So the bigger variety of foods you eat. The better the chances for a improved diet.The occasional fast food(no more than once or twice a month) won't hurt you, but a prolonged diet of the stuff is terrible for your health, and weight.
cacheman Posted May 18, 2012 Author Posted May 18, 2012 I've been a vegetarian for 10 years now........Thanks for sharing your perspective BD. I am very much in agreement with your thoughts and attitudes towards food and animal agriculture. I also agree that the common perception that veg diets require an extensive amount of planning is misunderstood. Variety is the key, and I also encourage people on veg diets to get regular blood work done to detect any possible deficiencies so they can be corrected. I'm curious as to how your faith effects your attitude about your vegetarianism. If you feel like sharing, that would be appreciated. cacheman
T-Shirt Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 In my experience most church members violate the Word of Wisdom because they eat far too much meat.How much is too much? Do you monitor most church member's diets?It always makes me chuckle when these members will condemn those who drink coca cola while stuffing a hamburger in their mouths.Is there something, inherently, wrong with a hamburger? Do hamburger eaters, generally, "stuff" their food in their mouths? Just curious.
Recommended Posts