Deborah Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 I think Matthew 25 is important in understanding how the Lord expects us to use what he gives us, whether it's talents in the ability sense or talents in the "money" sense. The Lord doesn't expect us to bury our talents in the ground. He expects us to invest in whatever form they come in and increase them so that they can benefit more people. It would not be in keeping with Christ's teachings to not use such "talents" to further his work and improve the condition of others by wise investment and use. By providing for the infrastructure of the church, the Lord is able to have a means to teach the members what they need to know for their salvation and the salvation of others. This also allows for spreading the message of the Gospel so that others can be uplifted and in turn reach out to still others.Charity is something we individually are responsible for but the church provides the means through fast offerings and humanitarian aid for us to pool our resources so that even more people outside our neighborhood can be assisted. "The Church" is an organization and as such it needs funds to run properly. Charity is the responsibility of the individual and because of the efficient organization of the church we can expand as individuals our charitable outreach. I don't know why this is so hard to understand. The Church donates in money and in people and their talents to many areas of the world where there is great need. No one should criticize the church for not doing enough and to do so shows an ignorance of not only the most efficient means of helping others but of how the world works.18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money.19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
bluebell Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 Heather Ann, if this is a concern for you, then devote your finances to caring for the poor and pay nothing to the LDS church. That should resolve your issues with how the church is spending your tithing money.
LeSellers Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 Heather Ann, if this is a concern for you, then devote your finances to caring for the poor and pay nothing to the LDS church. That should resolve your issues with how the church is spending your tithing money.As I understand it, she already does this, except for not complaining about it. Lehi
KevinG Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 Heather Ann, if this is a concern for you, then devote your finances to caring for the poor and pay nothing to the LDS church. That should resolve your issues with how the church is spending your tithing money.She already does this. I think her beef is with the money she previously donated and that her husband currently donates.
KevinG Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 HeatherAnn is off line - I'll stop praching and give her time to answer my standing questions. Anyone else is welcome to take a shot at them too.1. What specific expenditures and church owned companies do you feel are a waste of tithing, have resulted in a historical loss of donations (as opposed to increasing them) or are morally questionable or simply greedy?2. Any suggestions on who should be in charge of churchwide expenditures if not those whom God has called to do so (the Prophet, Presiding Bishopric, Area Presidents, Stake Presidents and Bishops)?3. Knowing our assets are not endless... how would you spend tithes and offerings differently than you see the general and local authorities spending them? What benefit to the poor would you be able to provide that the church is not doing today without cutting into needed funds for chapels, temples and missionary work world wide?
Calm Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 There is only one way to ensure that charitable funds meant for the poor and needy end up with the poor and needy and that is to directly give it to those in need. Otherwise it will always involve some trust in the middleman, whether or not she gives a report of income and outgoing......after all those reports could be lies.And even if one gives it directly to those in need, robbery may still occur...by those in need themselves when they misuse the funds given them for inappropriate items. I've seen those in need chose to spend funds given them for basic needs on entertainment, illegal drugs, alcohol, tobacco, computers and electronic gadgets, fancy cars, etc. and some then complain about how hard life is because they don't have enough for food or rent.So I suppose we could become essentially babysitters where we keep a 24 hour watch on those we help to ensure they are using the funds or items we give them in the way we think is best.....otherwise at some point trust must become part of the relationship.If someone chooses not to trust church leadership, then for goodness sake stop giving your money to them and give it to someone that you trust,,,but be kind enough to stop hassling those who do trust as we have as much right to give our money where we believe it will do the most good as anyone else. 1
KevinG Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 ......after all those reports could be lies.Say (Enron) it (Jim Baker) ain't (Fannie Mae) so (Italy) !It is very difficult to charter a jet to Africa and feed a hungry child if there is no middle man involved. So were back to trusting or not trusting the leadership of the LDS Church to do what is right with the funds they are stewards of.
LeSellers Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) The problem as I see it is that HeatherAnn believes that tithing, per se, is supposed to go to the poor. She is totally wrong on this count, and I have shown why here and in the other topic (where she got booted).The argument seems to rely on two scriptures (Deut 14:28~29 and Mal 3: , grossly misinterpreted; worse still are the attacks on the Brethren (with no basis whatsoever) as being "greedy" and "stealing from the Lord" (because "sacred tithing funds" don't go to the imagined preferred targets).We've seen no cogent defense for the misinterpretation of the scriptures, nor any reason to believe that there is an alternative to the scriptural Council on the Disposition of the Tithe for determining how tithing money should be disbursed.From what we've read, too, we know that any corporation the Church owns is evil (although "why" we have not seen), and that somehow weddings and education are bad, too. (I confess to being unsure how the Church owns a wedding corporation, but it's in her perennial list.)In short, it appears that she knows better than those who've been called to the Council on the Disposition of the Tithe how God wants His money spent. I fail to see how she got that calling, though. Can anyone help me out on this?Lehi Edited November 17, 2011 by LeSellers
KevinG Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 Giving her the benefit of assuming she is inspired in her opinions - I'd like to know her thoughts on the questions I asked above. It is easy to complain but more difficult to propose a better solution.
LeSellers Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 Giving her the benefit of assuming she is inspired in her opinions - I'd like to know her thoughts on the questions I asked above. It is easy to complain but more difficult to propose a better solution.Yours or mine. Or, better, both yours and mine.However, it is increasingly difficult to give her the benefit of the doubt.Lehi
Grundelwalken Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 As a current benefactor from offerings and probably some tithing funds during my period of unemployment I'm grateful for the system.From personal knowledge, I can assure you that any money/benefits you have received from the church came from Fast Offerings and not Tithes. There are specific guidelines that dictate which monies are used for which purposes. MW
Avatar4321 Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) I've always been intrigued by the call of some to criticize the way the Church spends money. "We aren't helping the poor enough"It's nonsense, of course. But knowledge of the scriptures, particularly the Gospel immediately brings to image the following:6 ¶Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper,7 There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat.8 But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste?9 For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.10 When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.12 For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did it for my burial.13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.(Matthew 26:9-13)Jesus rebuked His disciples for this very attitude. Perhaps we should let God take care of his own finances. Edited November 17, 2011 by Avatar4321 2
LeSellers Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 As a current benefactor from offerings and probably some tithing funds during my period of unemployment I'm grateful for the system.You meant, I'm sure, "beneficiary".I've been there, too. Now a generous Fast Offering is even more important to me.Lehi
why me Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 The point that I have been trying to make to heather ann which she seems to ignore is that no matter how much money the church gives to the poor ( what exactly does that mean anyway) the poor would still be among us. Global governance has been devoid of responsiblilty and this is one reason why our planet is in the mess it is in. The church can give 10 billion dollars right now and it would only be drop in the bucket. The money would also fall into corruptible hands. However, to create a system of governance where people come before profit, where a social darwinist tendency has no merit but one of altruism does, would help matters a great deal.Considering the rule of greed that now exists in the world, I personally feel that the lds church does a good job with the funds it allocates to the disadvantaged around the planet.
Grundelwalken Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 One more chime on this bell. I believe that if our leaders were misusing the tithes there would be more evidence in their personal lives. Yet, from what I have seen, the leaders of the Church live in modest homes, drive modest cars and dress in a modest manner. None of their trappings or habits indicate that they are involved in any 'grab' for money or wealth. It seems very difficult to find any 'smoke' for an assertion of malfeasance. MW
MorningStar Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 This is silliness. Either you believe these men are prophets or you don't. If you do, why don't you trust that the Lord is making His will known to them? If you don't, then I would think you're not paying tithing and it doesn't affect you. 3
bluebell Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) As I understand it, she already does this, except for not complaining about it.LehiShe already does this. I think her beef is with the money she previously donated and that her husband currently donates.Is her issue then that she wants the rest of us to share her same concerns? Edited November 17, 2011 by bluebell
Mark Beesley Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 "God is love." -1John 4:8What is the greatest commandment, which "hang all the law & the prophets"? To love God & to love others as ourselves.How do we love God? By loving others as ourselves."Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me...Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." - Matt 25: 40, 45Many LDS members (which there are over 14,000,000 of) donate a significant amount of money - 10%/tithing of their income - trusting the church leaders to use all of the church's resources for God's will. What is God's will - is it to invest in corporations?Some of the corporations owned by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints...-Deseret Management Corporation-Beneficial Financial Group-Bonneville International-Bonneville Interactive Services-Bonneville Satellite35 Radio Stations-1 Television Station (KSL)-Deseret Book-Excel Entertainment-Deseret Morning News-Hawaii Reserves-Polynesian Cultural Center (PCC)-La'ie Shopping Center-La'ie Park-La'ie Cemetary-Hukilaue Beach Park-La'ie Water Company-La'ie Treatment Works-Mstar.net-Temple Square Hospitality-Weddings (Josph Smith MB & Lion House)-The Inn at Temple Square (no longer - since Mall pursuit)-Lion House Pantry-The Roof Restaurant-The Garden Restaurant-Passages Restaurant-Zions Securities Corporation-Deseret Trust company-LDS Family Services-Propery Reserves Inc. (PRI)-Ensign Peak Advisors-Deseret Mutual Benefit Administrators (DMBA)-Brigham Young University (BYU)-BYU- Idaho-BYU- Hawaii-LDS Business College(& more...)Is it proper for a church to be so involved in corporations?There are separate donation sections for fast-offering, humanitarian aid, etc... & the church keeps its' finances secret, so how can we know how sacred tithes are being spent?Now, let's consider how tithes are directed to be used... You'll notice it's in compliance with the greatest commandments - to love God & love others as ourselves..."thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, & shall lay it up within thy gates: & the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand with thou doest." -Deut 14:28-29There are untold health concerns & living conditions that need our love & care/tithes... hunger is one major one: "In round numbers there are 7 billion people in the world. Thus, with an estimated 925 million hungry people in the world, 13.1 percent, or almost 1 in 7 people are hungry."http://www.worldhung...acts%202002.htmCan we be sure LDS church leaders are spending sacred tithes, according to how it is indicated in scripture - primarily to help those who are poor?You are confused. Your list of "corporations" includes non-profit entities that are not corporations. It also mixes entites which exist to make a profit (such as Deseret Book), and those which are non-profit, such as BYU.You may not believe it, and you may not care to, but the fact is that the Church is religious in keeping profit-making ventures and non-profit ventures separate. However, the Church can and will take funds from the profit side and use them for support of the non-profit activities. The fact is that the Church's involvement in many for-profit ventures enables it to respond swiftly and efficiently to do exactly what you are concerned about: caring for the poor and alleviate suffering.You can know that the Church is spending sacred funds according to scirptural mandates by sincerely seeking wisdom from the Lord, part of which is wisdom is knowing when to keep your thoughts to yourself.
Calm Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 From personal knowledge, I can assure you that any money/benefits you have received from the church came from Fast Offerings and not Tithes. There are specific guidelines that dictate which monies are used for which purposes. MWDon't administrative costs come out of something besides the offerings though?
KevinG Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) From personal knowledge, I can assure you that any money/benefits you have received from the church came from Fast Offerings and not Tithes. There are specific guidelines that dictate which monies are used for which purposes. MWThat is true as long as the local units don't go over their budgets. Unfortunately I think we may be facing that now with widespread unemployment. I may be mistaken. Are tithing funds from Salt Lake ever used to supplement local offerings when they are short? Edited November 17, 2011 by DaddyG
KevinG Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 You meant, I'm sure, "beneficiary".Yeah - what Lehi said...
Calm Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 I've been taught that leftover funds are sent to SLC for this very reason, to dispense out for poorer stakes. Perhaps someone can confirm this.
Gervin Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 Thanks for your reply, Gervin.If we cannot be sure that tithes are spent in accordance to God's will, as indicated in scriptures... What do you think God would have us do to ensure that people are getting the care they need... & that we don't unknowingly contribute to "robbing from the poor"?"Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings." - Malachi 3:8For me, I know how my church spends my tithes and offerings because they make the church budget available to all members. Beyond this I can, and do, give directly to charities and organizations that likewise provide a detail accounting of how monies are spent. If you give to an organization and they tell you that a certain % of the money goes to X, Y, or Z cause or mission, then there shouldn't be any reason for them not to show you the books. If they don't, then you've entrusted them to otherwise be honest in carrying through with their promises. Many are probably comfortable with that scenario, though I personally wouldn't be - probably as a result of always belonging to churches that are transparent in this regard.
Gervin Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 Gervin is no friend of the Church. His opinions are tainted by his anti-Mormon bias.Your approval of his message is not helpful to your cause.LehiLehi, we've not been introduced. My name is Gervin. Rather than attacking me, perhaps you can tell me how my statement is wrong. Thanks.I missed this earlier. Lehi please refrain from personal jabs like the one quoted here. -Ares
KevinG Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 For me, I know how my church spends my tithes and offerings because they make the church budget available to all members. Beyond this I can, and do, give directly to charities and organizations that likewise provide a detail accounting of how monies are spent. If you give to an organization and they tell you that a certain % of the money goes to X, Y, or Z cause or mission, then there shouldn't be any reason for them not to show you the books. If they don't, then you've entrusted them to otherwise be honest in carrying through with their promises. Many are probably comfortable with that scenario, though I personally wouldn't be - probably as a result of always belonging to churches that are transparent in this regard.This thread alone is justification for why the church does not open the details of its books to the world. The armchair micromanaging would be intense. Just how much detail do you think is appropriate? Should I know how much the Bishop spent on the widow Jones electric bills last year? Perhaps its my business how much we spent on tractor parts for the church welfare farms?In my experience a church financial audit is as intense as any audit I've experienced by the state or a board of directors.I am confident those who are authorized to use and audit church funds are sufficiently inspired, trained and watched over.
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