Proper Use Of Church Funds

[HeatherAnn]

I'd still like an answer to these questions based on your implications here and on other threads.

1. What specific expenditures and church owned companies do you feel are a waste of tithing, have resulted in a historical loss of donations (as opposed to increasing them) or are morally questionable or simply greedy?

2. Any suggestions on who should be in charge of churchwide expenditures if not those whom God has called to do so (the Prophet, Presiding Bishopric, Area Presidents, Stake Presidents and Bishops)?

Now you say we could do more for the poor... that is a valid question. We must walk before we can run, and the LDS Church is not an endless repository of funds. Therefore I will add a third question.

3. How would you spend tithes and offerings differently than you see the general and local authorities spending them? What benefit to the poor would you be able to provide that the church is not doing today without cutting into needed funds for chapels, temples and missionary work world wide?

For some perspective on the limits of generosity here is a good link to Bill Whittle's "Let's Just Eat The Rich"

I also hearily recommend the book "Pure Religion" a history of Church welfare since 1930 (the great depression)

According to forum rules, you are not supposed to badger people for answers when they already answered.

I already answered this in the other thread.

Still... I'll expand on it again...

1. I (nor anyone else) can know how much money the church has because they carefully keep that secret.

2. We do know that tithing is a separate financial category than humanitarian & fast offering donations, despite that this is against commandments given in the scriptures - for tithes to be primarily for those poor in need, & that the greatest commandments are to love God & love others as ourselves.

3. I am not a financial expert, nor would ANYONE be appropriate in responding to ALL of the needs of poverty throughout the world.

Even the church, is organized like a pyramid... the precidency at top, then the 12, then the 70, (& many employees scattered throughout) - then the regional level, stake level/stake presidency, ward level/bishopric... then organizations within the ward: Relief Society, High Priest, Elder's Quorum, Primary, Young Men & Young Women, SundaySchool etc.

I consider it badgering me to know what is impossible to know & I ask you & others who are being disrespectful in this manner to please stop.

Or you can continue on & demonstrate to investigators who read this forum, how anyone will be treated for asking questions about the church.

[thesometimesaint]

Storm Rider:

Where are all those people who choose to be homeless?

No school, including the school of hard knocks, can force you to excel. Most of us don't excel at everything either. But we still lead happy productive lives

Where are all those children who choose to go hungry?

We've had manditory school attendence in this country from before it was a country. It is doubtfull anyone has ever died from knowing too much. Further, If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

Jamie Oliver(world renowned chef) proved that you can provide high quality nutricious school lunches for little more than what it costs now to declare Pizza a vegetable.

In as much as Ye have done it unto one of the least of these, my brethren. Ye have done it unto me. The very definition of a "Bleeding Heart Liberal".

[LeSellers]

We do know that tithing is a separate financial category than humanitarian & fast offering donations, despite that this is against commandments given in the scriptures - for tithes to be primarily for those poor in need, & that the greatest commandments are to love God & love others as ourselves.

There is no commandment to use tithing to support the poor.

You keep making this erroneous claim and have no even begun to show why you believe this false idea.

Deut 14:28~29 applies exclusively to the third-year (aka the poor) tithe. It did not apply to tithing in general. It does not apply today. The Lord has told us exactly who is repsonsible for disbursing tithing funds in Doc&Cov 120. neither you nor I are called to that Council.

Lehi

[HeatherAnn]

Please tell us how Deut 14:28~29 means that all tithes should be dedicated to the poor, rather than the third-year tithe it explicitly notes.

Lehi

How many times do I have to state this, Lehi?

Read what is written in Deuteronomy 14:28-29...

"At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the SAME YEAR, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part no inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat adn be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest."

Stop trying to twist this to fit your beliefs.

In this scripture it is clear that God commands tithes to be primarily for the poor... 1/10 of each's increase - whether that is gathered every 3 years, the SAME YEAR, monthly, or daily. What matters is that it is handled in accordance with God's command as set for here & as instructed in other scriptures...

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy Gdo with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first & great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as theyself. On these 2 commandments hang all the law and the prophets." -Matthew 22: 36-40

Edited November 18, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[Nominee]

I thank you for going over those 3 questions for me again. I did not realize you considered these previous statements of yours to be answers. I am sorry that you feel badgered and that I might play any part in that.

Because I completely disagree with you, let us say on #2, I would like to ask nicely if you would please answer LeSeller's question regarding Deut 14: 28-29. I do not believe that the church is spending money in any way that "is against commandments given in the scriptures."

[HeatherAnn]

There is no commandment to use tithing to support the poor.

The denial I've witnessed in this thread is really sad... and considering it is rebellion with what God has commanded, is evil.

[jskains]

I consider it badgering me to know what is impossible to know & I ask you & others who are being disrespectful in this manner to please stop.

Or you can continue on & demonstrate to investigators who read this forum, how anyone will be treated for asking questions about the church.

Could you drop the victim card and just either discuss the issues or drop them? Your not answering real questions.

1. Is the Church run by God?

2. Would you read, say a 52 page document (which I am sure is small for such a large organization) if they put it out there?

3. What exactly will you do if you read the document and disagreed with something they were spending it on? I am dead sure that I would not agree with all the things you would disagree on. So what is the point?

JMS

[HeatherAnn]

I thank you for going over those 3 questions for me again. I did not realize you considered these previous statements of yours to be answers. I am sorry that you feel badgered and that I might play any part in that.

Because I completely disagree with you, let us say on #2, I would like to ask nicely if you would please answer LeSeller's question regarding Deut 14: 28-29. I do not believe that the church is spending money in any way that "is against commandments given in the scriptures."

Thank you for your more respectful tone, Nominee. It's much more productive to discuss in this manner.

We don't know how the church spends its money. That is a significant concern.

We have an idea of how it's spent... some is spent in building construction, genealogical research, humanitarian services & other worth-while pursuits. We also know that the church is involved in many business pursuits. We do know that "humanitarian" & "fast offering" donations are listed separate from tithing. So it gives reason to believe that tithing is not used for these purposes, despite the fact that scriptures clearly state that sacred TITHES are to be primarily for those poor who are in such need (& there are plenty at this very moment!).

Edited November 18, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[jskains]

The denial I've witnessed in this thread is really sad... and considering it is rebellion with what God has commanded, is evil.

WOW, talk about logical fallacies!!!! Come on, really? Now your so desperate to make your point, your going as far as calling us evil? No one is in denial here. We disagree with you.... So disagreeing with you is rebelling against God?

If you wanna play that game, you are attacking the Lord's Anointed and shall be banished to outer darkness for disobedience. You are insulting Heavenly Father's governing body, insulting the way He has designed His Church to run, thus committing rebellion, and by your standards are evil yourself!

*Shrug* How is that different?

JMS

[CV75]

The denial I've witnessed in this thread is really sad... and considering it is rebellion with what God has commanded, is evil.

I apologize for popping in just now, and only having a scanned a few posts.

My understanding is that tithing is used to build temples and to support whatever labors are necessary to get people there, and that it may be used for welfare assistance if and when fast offerings are insufficient. Also that other sources of income are obtained through other types of offerings, businesses and investment.

Is the claim that not enough is spent on the poor?

[CV75]

scriptures clearly state that sacred TITHES are to be primarily for those poor who are in such need (& there are plenty at this very moment!).

Sometimes "tithe" is used for any free-will offering, not just the 10% of one's increase or stewardship. Are you looking for a specific accounting of the amount members enter into the tithing field of their contribution slips?

[frankenstein]

My, my, my, we have a bit of a chip on our shoulder. I suppose the only real way to handle this is for set you up to make all the financial decisions for the Church and all of her investments. Not only would you be responsible for managing our tithes, fast offerings, etc., but also all of the other assets of the Church that are set up as investments. Then I am sure that you could conquer world hunger, force all the homeless into homes, never allow students to drop out, which condemns them to a life of poverty, force all to excel in education, ensure no child is left behind, but is able to keep up with all the rest, determine what crops are planted and when around the world in order to provide the right foodstuffs at just the right time, deny the choice of foods to some in order that all might eat, dictate school lunches worldwide so that all children eat a "healthy" meal while at school, which also means forcing all children to go to school and force their parents to work in productive jobs in order to afford school, which also means we might as well get rid of the inefficiences found in democracy and just set you up as world dictator so that you could have a free reign to force everyone to your enlightened POV.

I am sorry, but you are just so naive. Your heart is in the right place, but you don't have a clue about what you are saying about the Church, about life, and about free agency. Why do you think the Lord said that the poor would always be with us? We could have spent the money on those precious oils to feed the poor! Do you remember who it was that brought up this complaint? Judas would be correct.

Your little diatribe fits the very definition of a bleeding liberal. Be careful what you wish for in life; you just might get it.

Yes it was Judas, and according talmage, Judas made the statement without any cocern for the poor, but rather made the statement because he was greedy and trying to disguise the greed by mentioning the poor. So can you show were heatherann has acted in the same way as Judas? That is show that she has no concern for the poor but is meerly greedy? Or was your comment just to proclaim your spot on the bandwagon of spewing insults.

And while we are at it, can you show the official define.ition of bleeding liberal?

[HeatherAnn]

Could you drop the victim card and just either discuss the issues or drop them? Your not answering real questions.

1. Is the Church run by God?

2. Would you read, say a 52 page document (which I am sure is small for such a large organization) if they put it out there?

3. What exactly will you do if you read the document and disagreed with something they were spending it on? I am dead sure that I would not agree with all the things you would disagree on. So what is the point?

JMS

Why the rudeness? Is that how the church teaches you to treat others?

I'm standing up for myself... & you put me down yet again?

1. God is LOVE, & that which is GOoD. Sometimes the church is "run" by good & sometimes it's not... just as we are individually.

The church is made up of imperfect PEOPLE - it's not God, itself.

2. Yes, but they haven't. I went to the church office building & asked & they said they don't disclose finances of the church. It's secret.

3. The point is to raise awareness so people will behave more responsibly. If they knew their sacred tithes were largely funding corporations, instead of primarily helping the poor, then it would be their responsibility to do God's will & to put their funds in orgainzations or pursuits that would be more directly fulfilling the commandments of God, to use the tithes to help the poor.

[LeSellers]

Read what is written in Deuteronomy 14:28-29...

"At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part no inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest."

It might be good for you to read it more carefully.

Where does it say that all tithing is dedicated to the poor?

What is says is that the third-year tithe (aka the poor tithe) is to be laid up within the gates (that is, for each house to do it independently of the institutional church) so the poor and the widows, etc., would be supplied. There is nothing here that says that all tithing (you do know, I hope, that there were three separate tithes required in the Mosaic Law?) is for the ppor. Only one of the three Mosaic tithes was so defined, and it was the smallest of the three.

The others were the general tithe and the tithe given in years 1, 2, 4 and 5 of each seven-year cycle. The general tithe was for the Church. The second was for the individuals to use for themselves on the feast days (Passover, etc.) and the third was only once every three years or even only once in each seven years (depending on how you read the commandment). It was this "tithe" the Law required be given to the poor, and it was not to be funneled through the Church anyway.

You have simply misconstrued this commandment. You don't seem to have understood the nature of tithing in ancient Judaism, and you use a law that no longer applies to the Saints to bash the Brethren for their scripturally correct use of the tithing funds.

Stop trying to twist this to fit your beliefs.

Good advice. You should follow it.

In this scripture it is clear that God commands tithes to be primarily for the poor... 1/10 of each's increase - whether that is gathered every 3 years, the SAME YEAR, monthly, or daily. What matters is that it is handled in accordance with God's command as set for here & as instructed in other scriptures...

This demonstrates more fully that you have no comprehension of the ancient Mosaic Law of the thithe. There wre, as I said above, three separate tithes. Each had its own purpose, and each was handled differently.

The only tithe that went to (or through) the institutional Church was the general tithe. It was paid every year to the Priests. Its purpose was to sustain the Church.

The second tithe was the one used so each family would be assured they'd have the proper foods for the three annual feats. No one collected this, and if it could not be "paid" "in kind" (i.e., from the produce of one's own fields) he could sell it, take the moeny, and buy the food in Jerusalem.

The third tithe is the one this scripture speaks of. It was not "collected" by the church, either, but the household would store it so that when a poor person, a widow, or a Levite, etc., came to visit (or, perhaps, to beg), there would be something available for him.

Deut 14:28~29 has nothing at all to do with tithing as we know it today.

The third-year tithe (aka the poor tithe) is now replaced (this was in the Law of Moses, the Law Jesus fulfilled, as I'm sure you remember) with the Fast Offering and the Humanitarian Funds, the Perpetual Education Fund, and so on.

Doc&Cov 120 explicitly tells us that the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve and the Presiding Bishopric, along with the voice of the Lord, is the Council that decide when, how, and where the Tithes will be disbursed.

There is nothing in any scripture that says the general tithe is dedicated to the poor.

Lehi

[jskains]

Why the rudeness? Is that how the church teaches you to treat others?

I'm standing up for myself... & you put me down yet again?

You stand up for yourself by putting others down? Are you aware of the world "hypocrite"?

1. God is LOVE, & that which is GOoD. Sometimes the church is "run" by good & sometimes it's not... just as we are individually.

The church is made up of imperfect PEOPLE - it's not God, itself.

So then you do NOT believe the Church is run by God? Then don't pay tithing, submit your "remove my name" form letter and move on. See? No one is stopping you.

2. Yes, but they haven't. I went to the church office building & asked & they said they don't disclose finances of the church. It's secret.

No they don't open themselves up for more ignorant questioning. The doctrine is abused well enough.

3. The point is to raise awareness so people will behave more responsibly. If they knew their sacred tithes were largely funding corporations, instead of primarily helping the poor, then it would be their responsibility to do God's will & to put their funds in organizations or pursuits that would be more directly fulfilling the commandments of God, to use the tithes to help the poor.

THE TITHING IS NOT FUNDING THE FOR-PROFIT CORPORATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And most of us know exactly what what we are getting into!

[Nominee]

Let me offer a different perspective. What if everything the church spends the money on DOES help the poor and needy? What if ALL the tithes go to this cause because there is no greater gift or blessing than the gospel of Jesus Christ and every penny spent on every single church neccessity to build up the kingdom of God is, in fact, helping the poor?

[HeatherAnn]

Is the claim that not enough is spent on the poor?

Yes.

Are you looking for a specific accounting of the amount members enter into the tithing field of their contribution slips?

Actually, I'm more interested in the complete finances of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints... where all of the money is spent and assets owned by the church.

This is the only way we can be sure if we are truly giving to the poor, as indicated by the scripture...

"At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the SAME YEAR, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part no inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat adn be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest." -Deuteronomy 14:28-29...

[thesometimesaint]

HeatherAnn:

We do know how the Church spends its money. All you have to do is look around at the results. I'm old enough to remember Ward budget talks, and Ward building funds.

Take a look at the Church Humanitarian Services site for more ways the Church spends it money.

http://lds.org/servi...church?lang=eng

Ps;. It ISN'T your money, and the Church doesn't owe you an explanation where it spends its money.

Edited November 18, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[LeSellers]

If [people] knew their sacred tithes were largely funding corporations,

The evil corporations you seem to detest so are major sources (not the biggest, nor the most important, but "major" nonetheless) of income that augments the Fast Offering and other Humanitarian efforts of the Church.

Tithing does not "largely fund" corporations, those corporations fund the church in her efforts to help the poor. .

What, exactly, is wrong with the Church's having financial interssts that increase the available fund to help the poor?

Lehi

[HeatherAnn]

Let me offer a different perspective. What if everything the church spends the money on DOES help the poor and needy? What if ALL the tithes go to this cause because there is no greater gift or blessing than the gospel of Jesus Christ and every penny spent on every single church neccessity to build up the kingdom of God is, in fact, helping the poor?

From experience, I know that getting simple humanitarian projects funded by the church is like pulling teeth. That is why some have joined other charity organizations.

We know (mathematically) that the church collects a significant amount of money from the over 14,000,000 members of the church.

We also know that it is financially involved in many many business pursuits completely unrelated to alleving suffering of the poor.

[LeSellers]

We also know that it is financially involved in many many business pursuits completely unrelated to alleving suffering of the poor.

So what?

You've said this many times. What is your point?

Lehi

[HeatherAnn]

TheSometimesSaint,

I realize the church does good in humanitarian service, but it is estimated that it's 1% of it's income.

Considering the instruction given in the scripture & the extreme need world-wide, that is insufficient.

"At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the SAME YEAR, and shalt lay it up... and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest." -Deuteronomy 14:28-29...

Edited November 18, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[thesometimesaint]

HeatherAnn:

You have heard of the Four Fold Mission of the Church?

[HeatherAnn]

Just so you know, I will not be resonding to anyone who shows disrespect.

Adhominem attacks (logical falacy) are unacceptable. It's like we're playing tennis - I hit the ball with my raquet to you, & you hit the ball with your raquette back to me (discussing differences) back & forth. When personal attacks & insults are used it's like you drop your raquet, pick up balls & start throwing them at me, trying to hit me. So, the game is over for those who choose to stop playing the game.

[jskains]

TheSometimesSaint,

I realize the church does good in humanitarian service, but it is estimated that it's 1% of it's income.

Considering the instruction given in the scripture & the extreme need world-wide, that is insufficient.

"At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the SAME YEAR, and shalt lay it up... and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest." -Deuteronomy 14:28-29...

Estimated by anti-LDS folks. Stop getting your facts from bad websites.

Don't get your Ford facts from Toyota's website!

JMS