Proper Use Of Church Funds

[LeSellers]

Well, I don't find your analogy compelling, and I hope that doesn't surprise you. I understand that's what you believe, but I don't believe that the quality of my afterlife or my current life depends at all on whether I give the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints any money.

You will.

Lehi

[Gervin]

Actually, you did.

Lehi

Good grief. You said "It appeared that she may have thought that a tithe paying Saint was agreeing with her." I agreed with you and said "Right." Then I described myself as "A tithe-paying Christian" who was agreeing with her.

[LeSellers]

Good grief.

Is "grief" ever "good"?

You said "It appeared that she may have thought that a tithe paying Saint was agreeing with her." I agreed with you and said "Right." Then I described myself as "A tithe-paying Christian" who was agreeing with her.

Apparently, I am not the only one who doesn't always make himself clear.

Lehi

[Brade]

You will.

Lehi

Ok, thanks.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Brade

[KevinG]

Most administrative costs are borne by bishops and Relief Society presidents who work for free.

The volunteers in Bishops' Storehouses and canneries, etc., also cut monetary costs to near nothing. Full-time employees are not "well paid", so there are not many costs to pay. But they do come out of tithing funds.

Lehi

In fact full time Church employees are so poorly paid that an alarming number of them are receiving assistance. If anything HQ is a little too conservative with funds. Then again they are solvent when most world governments are in debt up to their abacus.

[KevinG]

I see clear benefit coming from my tithing dollars (even if none of them are ever used for poverty relief). The chapels I worship in, the missionary efforts, the hymnals I sing from, the Temples I worship in, the building of infrastructure and publication of scriptures all over the world. It is all a very good use of a miniscule 10% of my increase. Those are tangible benefits in this lifetime. I don't expect non-members to tithe, but it seems to be selfish to make use of church resources and then refuse to support them financially.

[Kenngo1969]

That's not what you said earlier. You pay, as I recall, your "tithing" to other charities, and your husband pays his to God.

Lehi

And I'm sure the overhead of those other charities is way lower than God's.

[KevinG]

I'd still like someone who is a critic of the way the Church spends tithes and offerings to address these questions...

1. What specific expenditures and church owned companies do you feel are a waste of tithing, have resulted in a historical loss of donations (as opposed to increasing them) or are morally questionable or simply greedy?

2. Any suggestions on who should be in charge of churchwide expenditures if not those whom God has called to do so (the Prophet, Presiding Bishopric, Area Presidents, Stake Presidents and Bishops)?

3. Knowing our assets are not endless... how would you spend tithes and offerings differently than you see the general and local authorities spending them? What benefit to the poor would you be able to provide that the church is not doing today without cutting into needed funds for chapels, temples and missionary work world wide?

Here is some music to ponder by:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKg5ggoqJ0g

[blackstrap]

Let's see if we can come up with an organization that is fully transparent and give a great deal to the poor. Hmhmhm .The Federal government? No?

[Grundelwalken]

I've been taught that leftover funds are sent to SLC for this very reason, to dispense out for poorer stakes. Perhaps someone can confirm this.

It is true that leftover fast offering funds are sent to headquarters but tithing is never comingled with fast money. They are for two completely different purposes. MW

[Nominee]

Personally, I pay tithes as an expression of obedience to God. If the money was burnt in a bucket then the one with the match may surely be held accountable for that bad move; however, it would have no effect on whether I chose to pay my tithes. I consider the church to be a conduit that allows me to fulfill my covenants with ease. I am grateful for the ability to give back to God this way, regardless of how that money is spent. It isn't about their salvation, it is about mine. "The church doesn't need the money, we need the blessings." This is what I was taught. I want to add though that I do sustain our church leaders and am in agreement with their choices. I do not pay my tithes to the church so they in any way become responsible for my committment to helping the poor. I do whatever I can to help everyone around me in any way possible and completely seperate from tithes.

[jskains]

It is easy to complain, especially from a peanut gallery.

JMS

[Bernard Gui]

Tithing funds are for the administration of the Church program...buildings,

publications, education, etc.

Fast offerings are for helping the poor and needy.

Let's say the ward receives $5000 in fast offering donations in a month.

$4500 are used to help people in need, as determined by the bishop and

Relief Society President. That leaves $500. At the end of the month, the

account is zeroed out by SLC. The $500 is sent elsewhere for the help of the needy,

as in example two:

Let's say the ward receives $5000 in fast offering donations in a month.

$5500 is spent to help those in need. At the end of the month the ward is

$500 in the red. That account is zeroed out with a transfer from SLC to the

ward account. That money comes from excess fast offering donations as

in the first example.

Fast offering accounts are zeroed out every month. This account is completely

transparent.

0% of the fast offering goes to administrative expenses. If you want to donate to the poor and be assured that 100% of your donation goes where it belongs,

then increase your fast offering donation by a factor of 5 or 10 or more if you can.

There is no limit on what you can donate to fast offerings. In fact, you can live

the law of consecration by using the fast offering account as the repository of

your excess income. If paying tithing gives you heartburn and you don't care about

your temple recommend or calling worthiness, give it all to fast offering.

I call on Christian churches everywhere, including all those whose members participate

in this forum to establish a fast offering fund in their churches. No one is to skim off a

portion. It goes entirely to help the poor. This is the Lord's perfect way to help the poor.

There is nothing else like it on planet Earth. Kwitcherbeliakin and get on board with fast offerings.

Bernard

Edited November 18, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[TAO]

Hmmm... I just participated in a home teaching lesson on tithing today.

You can read part of the story that I related to in here: http://lds.org/general-conference/2005/10/do-your-duty-that-is-best?lang=eng&query=hungary+voice

What isn't mentioned, is that the tithing was accumulated over a 44 year period... he was saving it the entire time. =) And... in return... as a blessing... he was able to apply for journeying to Switzerland, and was able to be sealed to his dead wife, and do work for his ancestors.

Nah, tithing, is a most wonderful, wonderful thing indeed. It opens the windows of heaven, and the blessings pour out, drenching you, and allowing happiness to reign again =).

Best of Wishes,

-TAO

[Bernard Gui]

Nah, tithing, is a most wonderful, wonderful thing indeed. It opens the windows of heaven, and the blessings pour out, drenching you, and allowing happiness to reign again =).

Right on bro, right on!

Bernard

[HeatherAnn]

It's natural to get defensive of where you invest your money & your beliefs.

It's uncomfortable to question things... Like when we 1st realized our parents weren't perfect.

It's uncomfortable to realize anyone or any organization isn't "perfect" as we might have believed our entire lives.

Yet, avoiding uncomfort doesn't help... What helps is exploring to discover truth & responding with reason & spirit.

This is not just "helpful" but it is our responsibility.

"You can bend it and twist it... You can misuse and abuse it... But even God cannot change the Truth." - Michael Levy

[HeatherAnn]

TIME magazine estimated in 1996 that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints's assets exceeded $30 billion.^[1]

Some of the Financial Holdings of the church...

• AgReserves Inc. - the largest producer of nuts in America (circa. 1997)^[1]
  
• Hawaii Reserves, Inc. - Miscellaneous church holdings in Hawaii. Along with the Polynesian Cultural Center (the leading paid visitor attraction in Hawaii^[24]) and Brigham Young University-Hawaii, Hawaii Reserves generated revenue of $260 million for the Hawaii economy in 2005.^[25]
  
• Farmland Reserve Inc. - 228,000 acres (923 km²) in Nebraska,^[26]; 51,600 acres in Osage County, Oklahoma^[27]; and over 312,000 acres (1,260 km²) in Florida (dba Deseret Cattle and Citrus).^[28]
  
• Bonneville International Corporation - the 14th largest radio chain in the U.S.^[1]
  
• Deseret Morning News - a daily Utah newspaper, second-largest in the state of Utah.^[29]
  
• Beneficial Financial Group - An insurance and financial services company with assets of $3.1 billion.^[30]
  

[LeSellers]

TIME magazine estimated in 1996 that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints's assets exceeded $30 billion.^[1]

Some of the Financial Holdings of the church...

• AgReserves Inc. - the largest producer of nuts in America (circa. 1997)^[1]
  
• Hawaii Reserves, Inc. - Miscellaneous church holdings in Hawaii. Along with the Polynesian Cultural Center (the leading paid visitor attraction in Hawaii^[24]) and Brigham Young University-Hawaii, Hawaii Reserves generated revenue of $260 million for the Hawaii economy in 2005.^[25]
  
• Farmland Reserve Inc. - 228,000 acres (923 km²) in Nebraska,^[26]; 51,600 acres in Osage County, Oklahoma^[27]; and over 312,000 acres (1,260 km²) in Florida (dba Deseret Cattle and Citrus).^[28]
  
• Bonneville International Corporation - the 14th largest radio chain in the U.S.^[1]
  
• Deseret Morning News - a daily Utah newspaper, second-largest in the state of Utah.^[29]
  
• Beneficial Financial Group - An insurance and financial services company with assets of $3.1 billion.^[30]
  

"Estimated" is a key word here. They don't know.

Second, what's the point? We all know this. You make it appear as if the Church's having "financial interests" is a bad thing.

Lehi

[why me]

TIME magazine estimated in 1996 that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints's assets exceeded $30 billion.^[1]

Some of the Financial Holdings of the church...

• AgReserves Inc. - the largest producer of nuts in America (circa. 1997)^[1]
  
• Hawaii Reserves, Inc. - Miscellaneous church holdings in Hawaii. Along with the Polynesian Cultural Center (the leading paid visitor attraction in Hawaii^[24]) and Brigham Young University-Hawaii, Hawaii Reserves generated revenue of $260 million for the Hawaii economy in 2005.^[25]
  
• Farmland Reserve Inc. - 228,000 acres (923 km²) in Nebraska,^[26]; 51,600 acres in Osage County, Oklahoma^[27]; and over 312,000 acres (1,260 km²) in Florida (dba Deseret Cattle and Citrus).^[28]
  
• Bonneville International Corporation - the 14th largest radio chain in the U.S.^[1]
  
• Deseret Morning News - a daily Utah newspaper, second-largest in the state of Utah.^[29]
  
• Beneficial Financial Group - An insurance and financial services company with assets of $3.1 billion.^[30]
  

I tend to doubt that figure. However, if the church were to sell off their investments and give 30 billion to the poor of the world through some agency, I can assure you that the poor would still be with us. Why? Because a handout never helped anyone for long. Also, I could use some of that 30 billion too. And I am sure most on this forum could also.

As i have stated many times to you, the problem with poverty has to do with global governance. Wealth is unevenly distrubited because of greed. Unless global governance is changed and the stress is not on profit but on people, the poverty will continue to expand as it is now doing throughout europe and the usa: traditional places were poverty was limited.

Edited November 18, 2011 by why me

[HeatherAnn]

"...thou shalt bring forth thy tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up... and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow... shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied." -Deuteronomy 14: 28-29

"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me...

Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." -Matthew 25:40, 45

Edited November 18, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[HeatherAnn]

Finances

Main article: Finances of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Although the church has not released church-wide financial statements since 1959, in 1997, Time magazine called it one of the world's wealthiest churches per capita.^[103] In a June 2011 cover story, Newsweek magazine stated that the LDS church "resembles a sanctified multinational corporation—the General Electric of American religion, with global ambitions and an estimated net worth of $30 billion."^[104] Its for-profit, non-profit, and educational subsidiary entities are audited by an independent accounting firm: as of 2007^[update], Deloitte & Touche.^[105][106] In addition, the church employs an independent audit department that provides its certification at each annual general conference that church contributions are collected and spent in accordance with church policy.^[107]

The church receives significant funds from tithes (ten percent of a member's income) and fast offerings (money given to the church to assist individuals in need). According to the church, tithing and fast offering moneys collected are devoted to ecclesiastical purposes and not used in for-profit ventures.

The church has also invested in for-profit business and real estate ventures such as Bonneville International, Deseret Book Company, and cattle ranches in Utah, Florida, Nebraska, Canada and other locations.

[thesometimesaint]

HeatherAnn:

Again, SO WHAT? The Church pays taxes on all its profit making businesses. Jesus paid his taxes. Are you saying that Jesus wasn't perfect? That he was somhow unrighteous because he had a treasurer?

BTW;

http://lds.org/service/humanitarian/church?lang=eng

Edited November 18, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[LeSellers]

It's uncomfortable to realize anyone or any organization isn't "perfect" as we might have believed our entire lives.

Who really believes the Church is "perfect"? I doubt anyone here does, nor do I believe that anyone over the age of 12 anywhere in the Church would, either.

We are taught from early on that the people who run the Church (local or general) are no more than human. But we also know that, from a one-over-the-world perspective, it is God's church, and He will not let her fall into decay—we have His scriptural promise of that.

Further, it wouldn't matter if every cent of tithing were stolen and used to buy villas in Switzerland. Those who pay their tithing will still get the blessings promised. Sam Brannan did just that in San Francisco in 1849. Neither the Saints in California nor the Church missed out on the benefits of tithing, although Brannan did:California's first millionaire, he died without enough money to pay for his own funeral. He lost his wife to divorce, and was a drunkard, as well.

Lehi

[HeatherAnn]

I tend to doubt that figure. However, if the church were to sell off their investments and give 30 billion to the poor of the world through some agency, I can assure you that the poor would still be with us. Why? Because a handout never helped anyone for long. Also, I could use some of that 30 billion too. And I am sure most on this forum could also.

As i have stated many times to you, the problem with poverty has to do with global governance. Wealth is unevenly distrubited because of greed. Unless global governance is changed and the stress is not on profit but on people, the poverty will continue to expand as it is now doing throughout europe and the usa: traditional places were poverty was limited.

Good points, Whyme.

As I've also mentioned before, you can't just throw money at a country & hope it solves the problem, especially when there is extensive corruption. Even the church has realized that in order to get some humanitarian projects done, it must fudge it's policy of "no bribes" by calling them "negotiation fees." People need to get involved, especially those who are most familiar with the culture and needs.

But we shouldn't throw up our hands & say, "Well, it's out of our hands."

It is in our hands - We pay tithing, & other offerings - a majority of those funds should be helping the poor, as indicated by God in scripture.

It starts with simple things...

(IE) Greg Mortenson was hiking a mountian (K2) in Pakistan & got lost high up, in the freezing cold - but luckily was saved by some villiagers. He promised to come back and build a school, to repay them for saving his life. He did, but before that was done, he realized other issues were higher priority - like health (clean water) and a bridge.

First things first.

I know some justify the church's "building up of the kingdom" instead of helping the poor, by saying that one's spiritual needs are more important than physical. But if you and your family were sick & starving, I think you'd feel otherwise.

"No man can be a patriot on an empty stomach."

Edited November 18, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[LeSellers]

Finances

Main article: Finances of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Although the church has not released church-wide financial statements since 1959, in 1997, Time magazine called it one of the world's wealthiest churches per capita.^[103] In a June 2011 cover story, Newsweek magazine stated that the LDS church "resembles a sanctified multinational corporation—the General Electric of American religion, with global ambitions and an estimated net worth of $30 billion."^[104] Its for-profit, non-profit, and educational subsidiary entities are audited by an independent accounting firm: as of 2007^[update], Deloitte & Touche.^[105][106] In addition, the church employs an independent audit department that provides its certification at each annual general conference that church contributions are collected and spent in accordance with church policy.^[107]

The church receives significant funds from tithes (ten percent of a member's income) and fast offerings (money given to the church to assist individuals in need). According to the church, tithing and fast offering moneys collected are devoted to ecclesiastical purposes and not used in for-profit ventures.

The church has also invested in for-profit business and real estate ventures such as Bonneville International, Deseret Book Company, and cattle ranches in Utah, Florida, Nebraska, Canada and other locations.

So, even Newsweek, a notoriously left-wing rag, agrees that the Church's finances are (please pardon the expression) kosher, even while using snide, egregious terms like "the General Electric [which pays no taxes on billions in profits thanks to political connections] of American religion" and "sanctified multinational corporation". Was there the least hint that the funds were mismanaged?. Where's the beef?

She pays taxes on all of the profits form the commercial operations, she uses those profits (after the government's theft of its "share") for building up the kingdom of God (including helping the poor). And you're still whining about it?

What, exactly, is the point?

Lehi