HeatherAnn Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) "God is love." -1John 4:8What is the greatest commandment, which "hang all the law & the prophets"? To love God & to love others as ourselves.How do we love God? By loving others as ourselves."Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me...Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." - Matt 25: 40, 45Many LDS members (which there are over 14,000,000 of) donate a significant amount of money - 10%/tithing of their income - trusting the church leaders to use all of the church's resources for God's will. What is God's will - is it to invest in corporations?Some of the corporations owned by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints...-Deseret Management Corporation-Beneficial Financial Group-Bonneville International-Bonneville Interactive Services-Bonneville Satellite35 Radio Stations-1 Television Station (KSL)-Deseret Book-Excel Entertainment-Deseret Morning News-Hawaii Reserves-Polynesian Cultural Center (PCC)-La'ie Shopping Center-La'ie Park-La'ie Cemetary-Hukilaue Beach Park-La'ie Water Company-La'ie Treatment Works-Mstar.net-Temple Square Hospitality-Weddings (Josph Smith MB & Lion House)-The Inn at Temple Square (no longer - since Mall pursuit)-Lion House Pantry-The Roof Restaurant-The Garden Restaurant-Passages Restaurant-Zions Securities Corporation-Deseret Trust company-LDS Family Services-Propery Reserves Inc. (PRI)-Ensign Peak Advisors-Deseret Mutual Benefit Administrators (DMBA)-Brigham Young University (BYU)-BYU- Idaho-BYU- Hawaii-LDS Business College(& more...)Is it proper for a church to be so involved in corporations?There are separate donation sections for fast-offering, humanitarian aid, etc... & the church keeps its' finances secret, so how can we know how sacred tithes are being spent?Now, let's consider how tithes are directed to be used... You'll notice it's in compliance with the greatest commandments - to love God & love others as ourselves..."thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, & shall lay it up within thy gates: & the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand with thou doest." -Deut 14:28-29There are untold health concerns & living conditions that need our love & care/tithes... hunger is one major one: "In round numbers there are 7 billion people in the world. Thus, with an estimated 925 million hungry people in the world, 13.1 percent, or almost 1 in 7 people are hungry."http://www.worldhung...acts%202002.htmCan we be sure LDS church leaders are spending sacred tithes, according to how it is indicated in scripture - primarily to help those who are poor? Edited November 17, 2011 by HeatherAnn Link to comment
Gervin Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Can we be sure LDS church leaders are spending sacred tithes, according to how it is indicated in scripture - primarily to help those who are poor?No. If an organization doesn't make their financial records public, or available to members, then a decision has been made not to provide that surety. 1 Link to comment
LeSellers Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) Can we be sure LDS church leaders are spending sacred tithes, according to how it is indicated in scripture - primarily to help those who are poor?You have yet to demonstrate that the spending of sacred tithing funds is, scripturally, primarily (or any other priority) to help those who are poor.Your consistent reference to Deut 14:28~29 is fallacious because it does not talk about tithing in general, it is specifically about the third-year tithe.The "ordinary" tithe, the one we pay today, was to support the Israelite Church, not the poor.Lehi Edited November 17, 2011 by LeSellers Link to comment
KevinG Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 If the LDS Church can use some of my tithing for socially constructive purposes and increase my donation at the same time I'd say that is a smart investment.As a current benefactor from offerings and probably some tithing funds during my period of unemployment I'm grateful for the system.I will be even happier when I get to contribute more again. I have seen the workings of the system in Ward leadership positions and I am convinced the accounting is very good. I also know accountants and church employees in the great and spacious office building in Salt Lake City. They are nearly paranoid about how money is spent so that none is wasted.Granted I'm not one of the brethren but from what I have experienced I see a very accountable system that focuses on creating the most good for the most people out of donated funds. My follow up question is, what specific expenditures and church owned companies do you feel are a waste of tithing, have resulted in a historical loss of donations (as opposed to increasing them) or are morally questionable or simply greedy as you implied in other threads? Link to comment
HeatherAnn Posted November 17, 2011 Author Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) No. If an organization doesn't make their financial records public, or available to members, then a decision has been made not to provide that surety.Thanks for your reply, Gervin.If we cannot be sure that tithes are spent in accordance to God's will, as indicated in scriptures... What do you think God would have us do to ensure that people are getting the care they need... & that we don't unknowingly contribute to "robbing from the poor"?"Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings." - Malachi 3:8 Edited November 17, 2011 by HeatherAnn Link to comment
LeSellers Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Can we be sure LDS church leaders are spending sacred tithes, according to how it is indicated in scripture - primarily to help those who are poor?We can because, as you, yourself, pointed out, that the Church hires an outside accounting firm (Deloitte and Touche) to audit the expenditures. They report, in public, every year to the world (in General Conference) that all expenditures are made in accordance with policies and practices and GAAP.To the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day SaintsDear Brethren:As prescribed by revelation in section 120 of the Doctrine and Covenants, the Council on the Disposition of the Tithes authorizes the expenditure of Church funds. This council is composed of the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and the Presiding Bishopric. This council approves budgets for Church departments, operations, and related allocations to ecclesiastical units. Church departments expend funds consistent with approved budgets and in accordance with Church policies and procedures.The Church Auditing Department has been granted access to all records and systems necessary to evaluate the adequacy of controls over receipts of funds, expenditures, and safeguarding of Church assets. The Church Auditing Department is independent of all other Church departments and operations, and the staff consists of certified public accountants, certified internal auditors, certified information systems auditors, and other credentialed professionals.Based upon audits performed, the Church Auditing Department is of the opinion that, in all material respects, contributions received, expenditures made, and assets of the Church for the year 2010 have been recorded and administered in accordance with appropriate accounting practices, approved budgets, and Church policies and procedures.Respectfully submitted,Church Auditing DepartmentLehi Link to comment
KevinG Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Short of the firm of HeatherAnn, Deloitte and Touche properly accounting for tithing funds who should be in charge of what is spent where?For now it is the Prophet, Presiding Bishopric, Area Presidents, Stake Presidents and Bishops. Any suggestions on who should be in charge of churchwide expenditures if not those whom God has called to do so? Link to comment
HeatherAnn Posted November 17, 2011 Author Share Posted November 17, 2011 DaddyG,Part of the point I'm trying to make is that we don't know exactly how the church spends money, since it is kept private.What I'm trying to do is to speak up for those who have no voice... but who need our help, as advised in Proverbs 31:8-9..."Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction.Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy." Link to comment
KevinG Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 OK now I've got two questions on the table:1. What specific expenditures and church owned companies do you feel are a waste of tithing, have resulted in a historical loss of donations (as opposed to increasing them) or are morally questionable or simply greedy? 2. Any suggestions on who should be in charge of churchwide expenditures if not those whom God has called to do so (the Prophet, Presiding Bishopric, Area Presidents, Stake Presidents and Bishops)? Link to comment
HeatherAnn Posted November 17, 2011 Author Share Posted November 17, 2011 DaddyG,I'm not saying that the leaders should step down from any responsibility... actually I'm saying the opposite... They need to step up to the responsibility of caring for Heavenly Father's children more than they currently are.They know how to do this. They employee plenty of people world-wide who are more than able to help. They just need the church's approval. Link to comment
HeatherAnn Posted November 17, 2011 Author Share Posted November 17, 2011 LeSellers (or Lehi)...The church hires it's own auditing company to report "Everything's ok." What does that mean?Would you accept that response from a politician who just spent billions? Link to comment
Nathair/|\ Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Heather-Ann, is the church led by revelation or not? Link to comment
LeSellers Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) If we cannot be sure that tithes are spent in accordance to God's will, as indicated in scriptures... What do you think God would have us do to ensure that people are getting the care they need... & that we don't unknowingly contribute to "robbing from the poor"?"Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings." - Malachi 3:8Once again, you start from a point that is not supported by the very scriptures you cite.Malachi 3:8 is not a complete thought. 7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye sai Wherein shall we return? 8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. 11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts. 12And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.Nowhere in this passage does the Lord say anything about the poor and the needy. He speaks exclusively of bringing the tithes to His storehouse.The charge is that the Israelites (Jews, specifically) have turned away from God. and His covenant. The first thing He says, in answer to the rhetorical question "Wherein shall we return, is "pay the convenantual tithe. We cannot be sure that this does not include the third-year tithe (now the Fast Offering, etc.), but it is certainly not limited to that payment.Lehi Edited November 18, 2011 by LeSellers Link to comment
Deborah Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 And as I said on the other thread it is disingenuous for a non-tithe player to criticize how the church spends its funds. If those of us who pay trust those in leadership then the rest of you should mind your own business. Once tithing is paid it is no longer our money but the Lord's and those in position to disburse the funds are accountable directly to God. I wouldn't want to be in their shoes if they misuse those funds. 1 Link to comment
HeatherAnn Posted November 17, 2011 Author Share Posted November 17, 2011 Nathair,That's a good question, except it's limiting... nothing is black or white.It wouldn't be inclusive if you asked, someone "Are you led by revelation or not?"Sometimes we're led by revelation, sometimes the "carnal" side gets the best of us. Link to comment
LeSellers Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) LeSellers (or Lehi)..."Lehi" is sufficient.The church hires it's own auditing company to report "Everything's ok." What does that mean?Would you accept that response from a politician who just spent billions?It's what all publicly traded corporations do at their annual stockholders' meetings. It's plenty good enough for the IRS (although I don't care whit about that), and the shareholders, in most cases.Lehi Edited November 17, 2011 by LeSellers Link to comment
HeatherAnn Posted November 17, 2011 Author Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) Deborah,I'm considered a "full tithe payer" because my husband, who is the primary provider is.But nice try in attacking my character. Edited November 17, 2011 by HeatherAnn Link to comment
KevinG Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 DaddyG,Part of the point I'm trying to make is that we don't know exactly how the church spends money, since it is kept private.What I'm trying to do is to speak up for those who have no voice... but who need our help, as advised in Proverbs 31:8-9..."Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction.Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy."How do you know that isn't happening on an individual and church wide basis. In fact there is lots of evidence that it is happening and no evidence of misappropriation of funds.You would think a tower full of accountants and quorums full of general authorities would spot and correct any financial waste or corruption. In fact a Church official misusing funds is the quickest way to excommunication without the benefit of a church counsel.If there is waste and greed associated with LDS offerings and tithes its got to be one of the best kept conspiracies I've ever seen. Link to comment
LeSellers Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) I'm considered a "full tithe payer" because my husband, who is the primary provider is.That's not what you said earlier. You pay, as I recall, your "tithing" to other charities, and your husband pays his to God.Lehi Edited November 17, 2011 by LeSellers Link to comment
Nathair/|\ Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Nathair,That's a good question, except it's limiting... nothing is black or white.It wouldn't be inclusive if you asked, someone "Are you led by revelation or not?"Sometimes we're led by revelation, sometimes the "carnal" side gets the best of us.It's extremely important to know if the Church is directly led by Christ through His chosen Prophets and Apostles the way she claims to be. If she is, then you are basically accusing the Lord of misusing His money. If she is not, then who is? We should be part of that church. Link to comment
KevinG Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) I'd still like an answer to these questions based on your implications here and on other threads.1. What specific expenditures and church owned companies do you feel are a waste of tithing, have resulted in a historical loss of donations (as opposed to increasing them) or are morally questionable or simply greedy? 2. Any suggestions on who should be in charge of churchwide expenditures if not those whom God has called to do so (the Prophet, Presiding Bishopric, Area Presidents, Stake Presidents and Bishops)?Now you say we could do more for the poor... that is a valid question. We must walk before we can run, and the LDS Church is not an endless repository of funds. Therefore I will add a third question.3. How would you spend tithes and offerings differently than you see the general and local authorities spending them? What benefit to the poor would you be able to provide that the church is not doing today without cutting into needed funds for chapels, temples and missionary work world wide?For some perspective on the limits of generosity here is a good link to Bill Whittle's "Let's Just Eat The Rich"I also hearily recommend the book "Pure Religion" a history of Church welfare since 1930 (the great depression) Edited November 17, 2011 by DaddyG 1 Link to comment
LeSellers Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Any suggestions on who should be in charge of churchwide expenditures if not those whom God has called to do so?It seems obvious that she has someone in mind. That name is not on the list, but this triviality does not seem to matter much.Lehi Link to comment
T-Shirt Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) HeatherAnn,Since you already claimed the following:the church keeps its' finances secret, so how can we know how sacred tithes are being spent?How can you possibly make this statement:They need to step up to the responsibility of caring for Heavenly Father's children more than they currently are. Since you don't know how the funds are spent, how can you know they aren't being spent properly or sufficiently?T-Shirt Edited November 17, 2011 by T-Shirt Link to comment
KevinG Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 If I have one complaint about the LDS Church and money it is that our individual members (myself included) are often too busy keeping up with the Jonses to realize how much more we could contribute to offerings if we didn't confuse wants with needs. We as a people have a dismal record of paying full tithing (I have heard between 30 and 60 percent of members). If we have a problem it is obeying what the Lord has commanded as individuals, not that any funds have been badly invested or misappropriated. Link to comment
KevinG Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 HeatherAnn,Since you already claimed the following:How can you possibly make this statement: Since you don't know how the funds are spent, how can you know they aren't being spent properly or sufficiently?T-ShirtShe should inquire of her husband if he turns the lights off when leaving the chapel. Or if he helps clean the chapel on a regular basis so we don't have to spend money on refurbishment or cleaning staff. How often does her family contribute to the yard work of home maintenance of a widow or elderly family so the Bishop does not have to disperse funds for their care?After all if its donated to the Church or its members we have a right top have an accounting for all of it right? Link to comment
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