LeSellers Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 "...thou shalt bring forth thy tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up... and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow... shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied." -Deuteronomy 14: 28-29How does this apply to the tithing funds of the modern Church?(Hint: it doesn't.)I've asked many times, others have asked, and you have refused to answer. "Refused" may be too strong a term, because no valid answer is possible. The inability to answer is not truly an indicator of a refusal to do so.Lehi
HeatherAnn Posted November 18, 2011 Author Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) "...thou shalt bring forth thy tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up... and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow... shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied." -Deuteronomy 14: 28-29 How does this apply to the tithing funds of the modern Church?(Hint: it doesn't.)I've asked many times, others have asked, and you have refused to answer. "Refused" may be too strong a term, because no valid answer is possible. The inability to answer is not truly an indicator of a refusal to do so.LehiI already answered it by scriptures, in this thread and several times in the other thread - what better REFERENCE could you get, Lehi?You don't believe this scripture?Please stop badgering me for stating scriptures. If you want to bash or deny scriptures, start another thread.P.S. I found it very disrespectful for you to put down Gervin, attacking him instead of focusing on the subject (adhominem attack). Edited November 18, 2011 by HeatherAnn
LeSellers Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) I already answered it by scriptures, several times in the other thread - what better REFERENCE could you get, Lehi?You don't believe this scripture?I believe this scripture when quoted in full, which you do not do when your trot it out and put it through the paces you have taught it.What is says is that the third-year tithe is used to support the Levites, the widows, etc. It does not say that all tithes are to be used for that purpose. You have provided nothing that shows that all tithes are dedicated to the poor.So, I could ask you if you believe that scripture, because, as I have shown, it does not mean what you claim it does.Please stop badgering me for stating scriptures. If you want to bash or deny scriptures, start another thread.It's not that you "state scripture", it's that you are not responding to calls for references. Your scriptures do not mean what you claim of them, and you have not provided any justification for your interpretations of them.It's not the scriptures we object to, it's the non-existent interpretation we need.I found it very disrespectful for you to put down Gervin, attacking him instead of focusing on the subject (adhominem attack).I said absolutely nothing that was not demonstrably true.Gervin is no friend of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: he is anti-mormon, and he suffers from that bias against the Church of Jesus Christ.The truth, when germane, is not ad hominem, and, as I said, it was only to give perspective to his comment.Lehi Edited November 18, 2011 by LeSellers
jskains Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 So now HeatherAnn is claiming the Church does not help the poor or needy?If all she wants to do is bash the Church, perhaps we should just move on? She doesn't seem to do her own research or listen to anyone.JMS
thesometimesaint Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 jskains:I don't know who she is listening to. But it sure isn't the Church itself, or the members here.
ERayR Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 TIME magazine estimated in 1996 that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints's assets exceeded $30 billion.[1]Some of the Financial Holdings of the church...AgReserves Inc. - the largest producer of nuts in America (circa. 1997)[1]Hawaii Reserves, Inc. - Miscellaneous church holdings in Hawaii. Along with the Polynesian Cultural Center (the leading paid visitor attraction in Hawaii[24]) and Brigham Young University-Hawaii, Hawaii Reserves generated revenue of $260 million for the Hawaii economy in 2005.[25]Farmland Reserve Inc. - 228,000 acres (923 km²) in Nebraska,[26]; 51,600 acres in Osage County, Oklahoma[27]; and over 312,000 acres (1,260 km²) in Florida (dba Deseret Cattle and Citrus).[28]Bonneville International Corporation - the 14th largest radio chain in the U.S.[1]Deseret Morning News - a daily Utah newspaper, second-largest in the state of Utah.[29]Beneficial Financial Group - An insurance and financial services company with assets of $3.1 billion.[30]And this is bad? Why?
LeSellers Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 And this is bad? Why?If enough of us ask her, maybe she'll enlighten us.Lehi
thesometimesaint Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 Lehi:MAYBE. But I wouldn't count on it.
ERayR Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 "...thou shalt bring forth thy tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up... and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow... shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied." -Deuteronomy 14: 28-29"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me...Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." -Matthew 25:40, 45 And the church is funnelling money into these areas to help improve their conditions. Quite a bit is being funneled through The Catholic Relief Fund. The church also has or is in partnership on clean water programs in this area.
why me Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 Good points, Whyme.But we shouldn't throw up our hands & say, "Well, it's out of our hands." It is in our hands - We pay tithing, & other offerings - a majority of those funds should be helping the poor, as indicated by God in scripture.It starts with simple things...(IE) Greg Mortenson was hiking a mountian (K2) in Pakistan & got lost high up, in the freezing cold - but luckily was saved by some villiagers. He promised to come back and build a school, to repay them for saving his life. He did, but before that was done, he realized other issues were higher priority - like health (clean water) and a bridge.First things first.I know some justify the church's "building up of the kingdom" instead of helping the poor, by saying that one's spiritual needs are more important than physical. But if you and your family were sick & starving, I think you'd feel otherwise."No man can be a patriot on an empty stomach."It is my understanding that the lds church is doing exactly what your example did. However, regardless if a school is built, good governance needs to support the school through funding. Thus, the problem. If you wish to do something, you will need to look at the world social forum and what they are attempting to do for the planet.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Social_ForumMost of what takes place at the world social forum is ignored by the mass media. The solution has to do with changing values and to have a new way to look at the global situation and how we are governed.The point is: there is not much a church can do than to support just causes that put humanity before profit. But a successful church also needs income to help the poor in their perspective countries and as such, it needs to work within the system for this to happen. However, people can also do much on their own by supporting causes that challenge the current way of doing business. Church tithing funds are not misused. But they are used to survive within a global system of poor governance.
ERayR Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 FinancesMain article: Finances of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day SaintsAlthough the church has not released church-wide financial statements since 1959, in 1997, Time magazine called it one of the world's wealthiest churches per capita.[103] In a June 2011 cover story, Newsweek magazine stated that the LDS church "resembles a sanctified multinational corporation—the General Electric of American religion, with global ambitions and an estimated net worth of $30 billion."[104] Its for-profit, non-profit, and educational subsidiary entities are audited by an independent accounting firm: as of 2007[update], Deloitte & Touche.[105][106] In addition, the church employs an independent audit department that provides its certification at each annual general conference that church contributions are collected and spent in accordance with church policy.[107]The church receives significant funds from tithes (ten percent of a member's income) and fast offerings (money given to the church to assist individuals in need). According to the church, tithing and fast offering moneys collected are devoted to ecclesiastical purposes and not used in for-profit ventures.The church has also invested in for-profit business and real estate ventures such as Bonneville International, Deseret Book Company, and cattle ranches in Utah, Florida, Nebraska, Canada and other locations.Again this is bad because?
why me Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 Joseph Smith Quotes... I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm, and administering to the poor and dividing his substance, than the long smooth faced hypocrites.Who can argue with this statement? But this will take a new way of looking at the world and finding a different way for our global governance that we are now a part of. . 1
ERayR Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 I know some justify the church's "building up of the kingdom" instead of helping the poor, by saying that one's spiritual needs are more important than physical. But if you and your family were sick & starving, I think you'd feel otherwise."No man can be a patriot on an empty stomach.""building up of the kingdom" is helping the poor. Think real hard and I am sure you can think of some ways "building up of the kingdom" is helping the poor. To get you started the church encourages self improvement and has programs to help in this respect.
jskains Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 jskains:I don't know who she is listening to. But it sure isn't the Church itself, or the members here.To me she is arguing an idea rather than an actual concern. She doesn't actually have a concern like "I saw the Church do ....blah blah... and I demand to see why", she is like "even though I am an active member who believes the Church is true (?), I believe I know better than the Church or I think the Church is acting unethically with my money because I just do, so I want the Church to expose all its funds for my own needs so I can then find something else to complain about when I see something I don't understand". or something.. JMS
thesometimesaint Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 When someone does that I normally charge $75/hr to have a nice talk with them.
ERayR Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 Joseph Smith Quotes... I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm, and administering to the poor and dividing his substance, than the long smooth faced hypocrites.Who can argue with this statement? But this will take a new way of looking at the world and finding a different way for our global governance that we are now a part of. .This quote from Joseph Smith is not a governnment program but one of personal giving. It needs no special gvernance except that of self governance. We can individually be charitable in what ever form of government we find ourselves in. The church organization provides a vehicle where everybody can combine their efforts but IMNSHO it does not absolve us from personal giving to the extent of our financial abilities. 1
DJBrown Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 "God is love." -1John 4:8What is the greatest commandment, which "hang all the law & the prophets"? To love God & to love others as ourselves.How do we love God? By loving others as ourselves."Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me...Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." - Matt 25: 40, 45Many LDS members (which there are over 14,000,000 of) donate a significant amount of money - 10%/tithing of their income - trusting the church leaders to use all of the church's resources for God's will. What is God's will - is it to invest in corporations?Some of the corporations owned by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints...-Deseret Management Corporation-Beneficial Financial Group-Bonneville International-Bonneville Interactive Services-Bonneville Satellite35 Radio Stations-1 Television Station (KSL)-Deseret Book-Excel Entertainment-Deseret Morning News-Hawaii Reserves-Polynesian Cultural Center (PCC)-La'ie Shopping Center-La'ie Park-La'ie Cemetary-Hukilaue Beach Park-La'ie Water Company-La'ie Treatment Works-Mstar.net-Temple Square Hospitality-Weddings (Josph Smith MB & Lion House)-The Inn at Temple Square (no longer - since Mall pursuit)-Lion House Pantry-The Roof Restaurant-The Garden Restaurant-Passages Restaurant-Zions Securities Corporation-Deseret Trust company-LDS Family Services-Propery Reserves Inc. (PRI)-Ensign Peak Advisors-Deseret Mutual Benefit Administrators (DMBA)-Brigham Young University (BYU)-BYU- Idaho-BYU- Hawaii-LDS Business College(& more...)Is it proper for a church to be so involved in corporations?There are separate donation sections for fast-offering, humanitarian aid, etc... & the church keeps its' finances secret, so how can we know how sacred tithes are being spent?Now, let's consider how tithes are directed to be used... You'll notice it's in compliance with the greatest commandments - to love God & love others as ourselves..."thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, & shall lay it up within thy gates: & the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand with thou doest." -Deut 14:28-29There are untold health concerns & living conditions that need our love & care/tithes... hunger is one major one: "In round numbers there are 7 billion people in the world. Thus, with an estimated 925 million hungry people in the world, 13.1 percent, or almost 1 in 7 people are hungry."http://www.worldhung...acts%202002.htmCan we be sure LDS church leaders are spending sacred tithes, according to how it is indicated in scripture - primarily to help those who are poor?Of those organization you listed, I believe the only ones that receive tithing funds are BYU campuses.None of the others receive tithing funds. Anybody who has spent time as a bishop or stake president knows very well how careful the church is in managing its resources.There is no other organization in the world I trust more when it comes to honesty and thrift in managing its funds.The church is a "silent giant" in its preparation for hard times ahead. I don't think there is another organization that comes close to the church in being prepared and independent of other worldly organizations and influences.
DJBrown Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 Did you know that at any given time, the church has over 500 chapels under construction and a dozen temples? Then consider all the seminaries, institutes, and the three universities. And the church has no debt to speak of- all of these projects are paid for at the time of construction.Then you have around 30,000 wards and branches with all their budgets. Plus the missions.It is not as if you have this huge amount of money going into an organization with little to show for it. It should be quite obvious where the churches funds are spent. 1
Storm Rider Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 "God is love." -1John 4:8What is the greatest commandment, which "hang all the law & the prophets"? To love God & to love others as ourselves.How do we love God? By loving others as ourselves."Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me...Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." - Matt 25: 40, 45Many LDS members (which there are over 14,000,000 of) donate a significant amount of money - 10%/tithing of their income - trusting the church leaders to use all of the church's resources for God's will. What is God's will - is it to invest in corporations?Some of the corporations owned by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints...-Deseret Management Corporation-Beneficial Financial Group-Bonneville International-Bonneville Interactive Services-Bonneville Satellite35 Radio Stations-1 Television Station (KSL)-Deseret Book-Excel Entertainment-Deseret Morning News-Hawaii Reserves-Polynesian Cultural Center (PCC)-La'ie Shopping Center-La'ie Park-La'ie Cemetary-Hukilaue Beach Park-La'ie Water Company-La'ie Treatment Works-Mstar.net-Temple Square Hospitality-Weddings (Josph Smith MB & Lion House)-The Inn at Temple Square (no longer - since Mall pursuit)-Lion House Pantry-The Roof Restaurant-The Garden Restaurant-Passages Restaurant-Zions Securities Corporation-Deseret Trust company-LDS Family Services-Propery Reserves Inc. (PRI)-Ensign Peak Advisors-Deseret Mutual Benefit Administrators (DMBA)-Brigham Young University (BYU)-BYU- Idaho-BYU- Hawaii-LDS Business College(& more...)Is it proper for a church to be so involved in corporations?There are separate donation sections for fast-offering, humanitarian aid, etc... & the church keeps its' finances secret, so how can we know how sacred tithes are being spent?Now, let's consider how tithes are directed to be used... You'll notice it's in compliance with the greatest commandments - to love God & love others as ourselves..."thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, & shall lay it up within thy gates: & the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand with thou doest." -Deut 14:28-29There are untold health concerns & living conditions that need our love & care/tithes... hunger is one major one: "In round numbers there are 7 billion people in the world. Thus, with an estimated 925 million hungry people in the world, 13.1 percent, or almost 1 in 7 people are hungry."http://www.worldhung...acts%202002.htmCan we be sure LDS church leaders are spending sacred tithes, according to how it is indicated in scripture - primarily to help those who are poor?My, my, my, we have a bit of a chip on our shoulder. I suppose the only real way to handle this is for set you up to make all the financial decisions for the Church and all of her investments. Not only would you be responsible for managing our tithes, fast offerings, etc., but also all of the other assets of the Church that are set up as investments. Then I am sure that you could conquer world hunger, force all the homeless into homes, never allow students to drop out, which condemns them to a life of poverty, force all to excel in education, ensure no child is left behind, but is able to keep up with all the rest, determine what crops are planted and when around the world in order to provide the right foodstuffs at just the right time, deny the choice of foods to some in order that all might eat, dictate school lunches worldwide so that all children eat a "healthy" meal while at school, which also means forcing all children to go to school and force their parents to work in productive jobs in order to afford school, which also means we might as well get rid of the inefficiences found in democracy and just set you up as world dictator so that you could have a free reign to force everyone to your enlightened POV. I am sorry, but you are just so naive. Your heart is in the right place, but you don't have a clue about what you are saying about the Church, about life, and about free agency. Why do you think the Lord said that the poor would always be with us? We could have spent the money on those precious oils to feed the poor! Do you remember who it was that brought up this complaint? Judas would be correct. Your little diatribe fits the very definition of a bleeding liberal. Be careful what you wish for in life; you just might get it.
Nominee Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 I'd still like an answer to these questions based on your implications here and on other threads.1. What specific expenditures and church owned companies do you feel are a waste of tithing, have resulted in a historical loss of donations (as opposed to increasing them) or are morally questionable or simply greedy? 2. Any suggestions on who should be in charge of churchwide expenditures if not those whom God has called to do so (the Prophet, Presiding Bishopric, Area Presidents, Stake Presidents and Bishops)?Now you say we could do more for the poor... that is a valid question. We must walk before we can run, and the LDS Church is not an endless repository of funds. Therefore I will add a third question.3. How would you spend tithes and offerings differently than you see the general and local authorities spending them? What benefit to the poor would you be able to provide that the church is not doing today without cutting into needed funds for chapels, temples and missionary work world wide?For some perspective on the limits of generosity here is a good link to Bill Whittle's "Let's Just Eat The Rich"I also hearily recommend the book "Pure Religion" a history of Church welfare since 1930 (the great depression)I,too, would still like to hear the answers you have to these questions, please.
HeatherAnn Posted November 18, 2011 Author Posted November 18, 2011 Joseph Smith Quotes... I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm, and administering to the poor and dividing his substance, than the long smooth faced hypocrites.Who can argue with this statement? But this will take a new way of looking at the world and finding a different way for our global governance that we are now a part of. .I agree, Whyme. Actions speak louder than words. Actions also reflect our intent, our heart, which God knows.It will take a better way of considering the bigger picture in all that we do. It will take putting God's will over our will or our desire to please others.
LeSellers Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 Actions speak louder than words. Actions also reflect our intent, our heart, which God knows.So, are you going to explain why Deut 14:28~29 applies to all tithing and not exclusively to the third-year (aka the poor) tithe?Lehi
HeatherAnn Posted November 18, 2011 Author Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) I was warning HeatherAnn regarding your position. It appeared that she may have thought that a tithe paying Saint was agreeing with her. This was obviously not the case.LehiThat's no excuse, Lehi.Adhominem attack, like you did is logical falacy.You know that it's against the rules, & better yet, it's wrong.Please show some integrity. Edited November 18, 2011 by HeatherAnn
LeSellers Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 That's no excuse, Lehi....Please show some integrity.Please tell us how Deut 14:28~29 means that all tithes should be dedicated to the poor, rather than the third-year tithe it explicitly notes.Lehi
LeSellers Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 I was warning HeatherAnn regarding your position. It appeared that she may have thought that a tithe paying Saint was agreeing with her. This was obviously not the case.That's no excuse, Lehi.Adhominem attack, like you did is logical falacy.You know that it's against the rules, & better yet, it's wrong.Please show some integrity.It was not ad hominem. At least be correct in your accusation. What I did was point out a fact that you may not have been aware of. You haven't been here nearly as long as I have, and Gervin has a track record you may not have been familiar with. Sorry you did not appreciate the effort.My integrity is as good as yours, or better, I believe, because I do not quote scripture and say it means something it does not and cannot mean. I do not call God's anointed prophets and servants "greedy".Lehi
Recommended Posts