I Am So Torn

[saemo]

To me, the Words of John 6 will always apply when done in HIS name.  So, I am not leaving anything.

 

I was a faithful Catholic....but, I have never been able to let go of the pull back...and with what has happened in the last 7 months, I believe it is clear where God wants me.

 

Add to that, the changes that seem to be coming to the Catholic Church.  And since there is no "Revelation" one must ask why those changes are coming.

 

Bottom line.....I will be where God wants me.

What Revelation is there in the Mormon Church?

[UtahTexan]

What Revelation is there in the Mormon Church?

 

 

Join and see

 

My point is, IF the LDS Church Changes, there is no wonder as the LDS Church claims current revelation.

 

How can the Catholic Church change?  By whose authority?

 

And while on the topic, when did Revelation cease for the Catholic Church?  According to the Catechism:

 

There will be no further Revelation

66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."²⁸ Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.

 

so...when did it cease?

Edited March 12, 2015 by CountryBoy

[saemo]

Join and see

 

My point is, IF the LDS Church Changes, there is no wonder as the LDS Church claims current revelation.

 

How can the Catholic Church change?  By whose authority?

 

And while on the topic, when did Revelation cease for the Catholic Church?

Going back to Mormonism is not something I would ever take seriously, but thanks for the invitation.

 

Probably get me banned from the topic to reply (but not you, ha). I am really floored that you're even asking this question.

 

Revelation did not cease. Revelation is Jesus Christ, which is a Revelation that never ceases. NEVER. I get the idea the Mormons view the Revelation of Jesus Christ as something that happened "back then", but it is not the Catholic view. Particularly in light of the Eucharist, where Christ is made present. Christ, also present in the Liturgy of the Word, and Christ also present in the Body of His Church. Us. We are the fulfillment of prophecy and we participate in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

The guidance of the Holy Spirit, as given to the Church at Pentecost is the also an unceasing revelation. 

 

There is a difference between change and development. Development being necessary because for one, our human understanding of the mysteries of God is limited. Limited by ourselves, by our own cultures and times, buy our propensity to sin, etc. The Catholic Church is a pilgrim Church, journeying toward the fulfillment of the Kingdom of God. We are guided through the ages, and God has never left us as orphans, as the Mormons claim.

 

Jesus is Truth, and that Truth is unchanging. The understanding of this Truth is held in the Church Christ founded, but that understanding is limited as no man can understand truly the mysteries of God. To claim one can, is to reduce God to myself, which is to make God in my own image, which is idolatry.

 

Did Jesus lie when He said He would always be with us and never leave us as orphans? Just wonder where you've moved to on that point.

Edited March 12, 2015 by saemo

[UtahTexan]

I see you ignored the Catechism.  It seems to disagree with you.

 

As to leaving us orphans?  He never did.  The fact that there was no living Prophet, does not mean The Spirit did not exist for those who believed.

 

One need only look at people in ALL Churches back then to see that there were good people living pursuant to the Bible.  

 

Again, I have quoted the Catechism.  Would you care to clue me in on where it is wrong?

[saemo]

I see you ignored the Catechism.  It seems to disagree with you.

 

As to leaving us orphans?  He never did.  The fact that there was no living Prophet, does not mean The Spirit did not exist for those who believed.

 

One need only look at people in ALL Churches back then to see that there were good people living pursuant to the Bible.  

 

Again, I have quoted the Catechism.  Would you care to clue me in on where it is wrong?

You added the catechism ref. after I started my response so I didn't see it.

 

The fullness of Revelation is Jesus Christ. Christ Lives, and so the fullness of all that God has Revealed lives in Him. Is present in Him. Is Him. What do you think Jesus left out?

 

Leaving no guidance to His own Bride would indeed be leaving us as orphans. You've made a quasi-I'm-with-you, maybe, kinda sorta. That is not the promise that Jesus made.

Edited March 12, 2015 by saemo

[juliann]

I just know that, for years I felt conflicted and pulled.  I resisted because of what I had gone through, because I had no testimony, and because I liked being Catholic.

 

But, for the first time in over 5 years, I feel at peace.  I feel right.  

 

I pray the feeling stays.

This reminded me of you a little.....http://affirmation.org/cold-hard-faith/

A hand came down and lifted me up.

I didn’t deserve it.

I wasn’t qualified.

It made about as much sense as all the ridiculous doctrines I’ve already rejected, with extreme prejudice, for years.

But there it was.

There was a force in my life… one that I couldn’t measure, or quantify, or explain. OR explain away.

There was something around that wasn’t contrary to science or reason – but above it.

There was a glimmer of hope. The seed of the idea that I was not an accident of circumstance who came from nowhere and was on its way to nowhere. A plan. A home. A people. A Heavenly Father.

There was right and wrong – outside and independent of men with their little views and their little ideologies. Something bigger and greater than all of us. Even me. Even you.

And once that was revealed to me, there would be no turning back.

On the one hand: No outrageous proclamations. No amount of political doublespeak. No rejections. But also: No amount of mockery or disdain. No amount of oversimplification.

That may not sit well with you… whether you are an angry Ex-Mo, a Recommend Wielding Priesthood Holder, or anyone of a million different kinds of Mormon.

But you see… I don’t particularly care. Unless you were the one who lifted me up… who saved my life… who took me in… who welcomed me into the loving, awesome presence… I really don’t care what you think of my faith. I believe now… and I answer to God alone.

It may not be something you understand, or want to. It may not be something you feel is worthy. It may not be True, according to your definition of the word. It may not be as gentle and compassionate and respectful and accommodating and orthodox and traditional as you are accustomed to.

And this faith has grown… as I’ve met people who inspired me. Waters… even oceans… have parted. The impossible has become commonplace. Blessings have come about. Miracles worked. Ask me about it one day… and if the time is right I will tell you.

It’s what I have.

It’s all I have.

And it is what it is. It’s mine. It’s meaningful. And it matters to me.

That’s it. It’s not an agenda. It’s not zealotry. It’s not craziness. It’s just the cold, hard, faith.

 

 

[UtahTexan]

You added the catechism ref. after I started my response so I didn't see it.

 

The fullness of Revelation is Jesus Christ. Christ Lives, and so the fullness of all that God has Revealed lives in Him. Is present in Him. Is Him. What do you think Jesus left out?

 

Leaving no guidance to His own Bride would indeed be leaving us as orphans. You've made a quasi-I'm-with-you, maybe, kinda sorta. That is not the promise that Jesus made.

 

Nope.  I showed you what the Catechism says...so...when did revelation end?  Should be an easy answer.

 

And if not Revelation...what is it?  Hmmmm.....

[Stargazer]

Nope.  I showed you what the Catechism says...so...when did revelation end?  Should be an easy answer.

 

And if not Revelation...what is it?  Hmmmm.....

 

CountryBoy, not to be a board nanny or anything, but this is the Social Hall. 

[UtahTexan]

CountryBoy, not to be a board nanny or anything, but this is the Social Hall. 

 

I know....but was only responding.....

[Calm]

Don't you mean Saemo?  She was the one who challenged CB on being drawn to the LDS faith again.  CB is just asking for clarification in my view.  

 

It is a very unusual thread with a great history and in a lot of ways I think it is fortunate to be able to observe this change of seeing things in others.  Working through the process of change is educational for everyone imo, even when one is just observing…we all need to have reality checks and consider what of our own thoughts that might need to be taken out and shaken a bit to get the dust off before putting back.

 

I am thinking it is Steve's (CB's) thread, as long as it doesn't draw blood and he is okay with it, why not?

[UtahTexan]

Thank you.  Yes...it has been odd to read the beginning of this thread started so many years ago and see the transformation as truth sets in.

 

Keep me in your prayers

[Calm]

I am, know others are as well.  

[saemo]

Nope. I showed you what the Catechism says...so...when did revelation end? Should be an easy answer.

And if not Revelation...what is it? Hmmmm.....

Nope? It saddens me that you can forget so easily. I'll gently remind, Catholics view revelation in more than one way. Theologically, Revelation, capital R refers to the Revelation of Jesus Christ, who is the Word of God fully revealed. There is no other Revelation to look for than this. Searching for innovations is not seeking out the will of God. All Revelation is fulfilled in Him. He IS God's Word, fully Revealed.

Revelation, theologically conveyed in writing via lower case r, is the revelation of the Spirit. Who reveals to us God's Word, and brings us to Christ.

The Revelation of Jesus never ends and continues to be revealed by the Holy Spirit. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, are the two rivers of revelation, from the same divine souce. The gift of the Holy Spirit given to the Apostles and handed on to our Bishops, is where the authority to lead and guide the Church through the ages reside. The Catholic Church is not a stagnant water, but living.

Dei Verbum is entirely about revelation. Who writes a document to describe what is dead and exists no more?

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

Edited March 13, 2015 by saemo

[UtahTexan]

Nope? It saddens me that you can forget so easily. I'll gently remind, Catholics view revelation in more than one way. Theologically, Revelation, capital R refers to the Revelation of Jesus Christ, who is the Word of God fully revealed. There is no other Revelation to look for than this. Searching for innovations is not seeking out the will of God. All Revelation is fulfilled in Him. He IS God's Word, fully Revealed.

Revelation, theologically conveyed in writing via lower case r, is the revelation of the Spirit. Who reveals to us God's Word, and brings us to Christ.

The Revelation of Jesus never ends and continues to be revealed by the Holy Spirit. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, are the two rivers of revelation, from the same divine souce. The gift of the Holy Spirit given to the Apostles and handed on to our Bishops, is where the authority to lead and guide the Church through the ages reside. The Catholic Church is not a stagnant water, but living.

Dei Verbum is entirely about revelation. Who writes a document to describe what is dead and exists no more?

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

 

So...you reworded the Catechism.

 

I certainly understand.

 

But, if no Revelation after Jesus......what happened to Paul and John?

 

Anyway...please take your debate to the General Board.

[saemo]

So...you reworded the Catechism.

I certainly understand.

But, if no Revelation after Jesus......what happened to Paul and John?

Anyway...please take your debate to the General Board.

I relayed in my own words from a Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, Dei Verbum Edited March 13, 2015 by saemo

[UtahTexan]

I relayed in my own words from a Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, Dei Verbum

 

lol.....and ignored the Catechism.....understandably...and my questions, I hope, you will not evade, but do so on the other board.  This is a thread of my growth, not your need to debate.

 

Thank you

[ChristKnight]

I personally have no interest in debating, so I will only present my view on the matter of revelation in the Catholic Church and leave it at that.

 

Yes, there can be change (though we must be specific in stating what kind of change) in the Catholic Church, which is readily accepted by the Church.  The Catholic Church does indeed teach that "public revelation" (a technical phrase, which may not be understood in the same way by both Catholics and Latter-day Saints) has ended with the death of the Apostles.  Catholics view "public revelation" as the Deposit of Faith, which was given once and for all.  Catholics believe that all that is necessary for salvation has already been given, and there is nothing else that is to be had in that area.  

 

However, Catholics also believe that there is an ongoing unfolding of that Deposit of Faith, guided by the Holy Spirit, as the Church comes to a fuller understanding of the Deposit of Faith.  So, Catholics believe that development of doctrine can and does occur, and is guided by the Holy Spirit, and the Church also has authority given to Her by Jesus Christ through apostolic succession.  That is how Catholics would view the matter.  Catholics very much believe that God is intimately involved in the Church, that it is guided by the Holy Spirit, etc.  Public revelation ending does not mean that the Heavens were closed off and God stopped speaking for Catholics.  You can also see this in the various stories of visions, visitations, etc. in Catholicism, including the popular Marian apparitions.  Catholicism is a faith where the involvement of the Divine in human life is readily apparent in many ways.

 

Saemo is not ignoring what the Catechism is saying.  Rather, she is pointing out the teaching within the context of the totality of the Catholic understanding of revelation.  Interestingly, she cites Dei Verbum, and if you look at the footnote for the catechism paragraph you cited, you would see that it is actually referencing Dei Verbum, so it makes sense that you would be invited to actually read where it comes from, which would help you see that saemo is not contradicting the Catechism, nor Catholic teaching, and wants you to understand the teaching in context, instead of isolated, which gives a mistaken reading that is not the Catholic view on the matter.

 

The very next paragraph in the Catechism says this:

 

67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called "private" revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ's definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

 

Other relevant excerpts form the Catechism include:

 

77      “In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them ‘their own position of teaching authority.’”³⁵ Indeed, “the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time.

 

78      This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, “the Church, in her doctrine, life, and worship perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes.”³⁷ “The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer.”

79      The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: “God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church—and through her in the world—leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness.

81      “Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.”  “And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound, and spread it abroad by their preaching.”

 

85      “The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living, teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ.”⁴⁷ This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

 

86      “Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication, and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith.

 

91      All the faithful share in understanding and handing on revealed truth. They have received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, who instructs them⁵³ and guides them into all truth.

93      “By this appreciation of the faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (Magisterium),… receives… the faith, once for all delivered to the saints…. The People unfailingly adheres to this faith, penetrates it more deeply with right judgment, and applies it more fully in daily life.”

94      Thanks to the assistance of the Holy Spirit, the understanding of both the realities and the words of the heritage of faith is able to grow in the life of the Church.

 

 

Hope that helps show what saemo was saying directly from the Catechism.  I wish you well in your journey.  You are in my prayers.  

[Rain]

Countryboy - please be patient with members. There have been times when I have looked out over the congregation and seen 5-6 people I needed to talk with. Sometimes traffic stopped me from getting to them. Sometimes children. Sometimes a class to teach. Sometimes the first person on my list. People gave gone out the door before I could get with them.

After a year I still only know about 1/4 of the people in the ward. Unfortunately, I don't recognize people well by face either. I try.

Please don't share you welcome or lack of welcome at fast and testimony meeting. Just your testimony.

I hope things go better for you this week. Feel the Spirit welcome you if nothing else.

[Dgal]

CountryBoy,

 

In reading your thread, am I correct in understanding that you were offended by members and because of that, you lost your testimony?

The reason I bring this up, your more recent experience at Church and how hurt you were, has me concerned. We can't base our testimony on how other members treats us, be that good or bad.

 

I hope that as you continue in your growth, that you will look at this apparent vulnerability you have. Because if you don't, even when you do come back, you may very well leave again if you find yourself offended that easily. Just something for you to consider.

[UtahTexan]

 

This reminded me of you a little.....http://affirmation.org/cold-hard-faith/

 

 

 

[UtahTexan]

I personally have no interest in debating, so I will only present my view on the matter of revelation in the Catholic Church and leave it at that.

 

Yes, there can be change (though we must be specific in stating what kind of change) in the Catholic Church, which is readily accepted by the Church.  The Catholic Church does indeed teach that "public revelation" (a technical phrase, which may not be understood in the same way by both Catholics and Latter-day Saints) has ended with the death of the Apostles.  Catholics view "public revelation" as the Deposit of Faith, which was given once and for all.  Catholics believe that all that is necessary for salvation has already been given, and there is nothing else that is to be had in that area.  

 

However, Catholics also believe that there is an ongoing unfolding of that Deposit of Faith, guided by the Holy Spirit, as the Church comes to a fuller understanding of the Deposit of Faith.  So, Catholics believe that development of doctrine can and does occur, and is guided by the Holy Spirit, and the Church also has authority given to Her by Jesus Christ through apostolic succession.  That is how Catholics would view the matter.  Catholics very much believe that God is intimately involved in the Church, that it is guided by the Holy Spirit, etc.  Public revelation ending does not mean that the Heavens were closed off and God stopped speaking for Catholics.  You can also see this in the various stories of visions, visitations, etc. in Catholicism, including the popular Marian apparitions.  Catholicism is a faith where the involvement of the Divine in human life is readily apparent in many ways.

 

Saemo is not ignoring what the Catechism is saying.  Rather, she is pointing out the teaching within the context of the totality of the Catholic understanding of revelation.  Interestingly, she cites Dei Verbum, and if you look at the footnote for the catechism paragraph you cited, you would see that it is actually referencing Dei Verbum, so it makes sense that you would be invited to actually read where it comes from, which would help you see that saemo is not contradicting the Catechism, nor Catholic teaching, and wants you to understand the teaching in context, instead of isolated, which gives a mistaken reading that is not the Catholic view on the matter.

 

The very next paragraph in the Catechism says this:

 

67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called "private" revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ's definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

 

Other relevant excerpts form the Catechism include:

 

77      “In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them ‘their own position of teaching authority.’”³⁵ Indeed, “the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time.

 

78      This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, “the Church, in her doctrine, life, and worship perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes.”³⁷ “The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer.”

79      The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: “God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church—and through her in the world—leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness.

81      “Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.”  “And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound, and spread it abroad by their preaching.”

 

85      “The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living, teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ.”⁴⁷ This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

 

86      “Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication, and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith.

 

91      All the faithful share in understanding and handing on revealed truth. They have received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, who instructs them⁵³ and guides them into all truth.

93      “By this appreciation of the faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (Magisterium),… receives… the faith, once for all delivered to the saints…. The People unfailingly adheres to this faith, penetrates it more deeply with right judgment, and applies it more fully in daily life.”

94      Thanks to the assistance of the Holy Spirit, the understanding of both the realities and the words of the heritage of faith is able to grow in the life of the Church.

 

 

Hope that helps show what saemo was saying directly from the Catechism.  I wish you well in your journey.  You are in my prayers.  

 

this did not belong on this thread.  I have tried to take it back to what it was intended to be.  If this is posted on the General Board, I will read it and discuss it.

[UtahTexan]

CountryBoy,

 

In reading your thread, am I correct in understanding that you were offended by members and because of that, you lost your testimony?

The reason I bring this up, your more recent experience at Church and how hurt you were, has me concerned. We can't base our testimony on how other members treats us, be that good or bad.

 

I hope that as you continue in your growth, that you will look at this apparent vulnerability you have. Because if you don't, even when you do come back, you may very well leave again if you find yourself offended that easily. Just something for you to consider.

 

nooooooooo

 

I lost my testimony.  I was struggling.  Members were awful to me.

 

I left the Church.

 

It was not because of the members.  I left because I lost my testimony.  The conduct of the members did not make me leave.  The conduct of the members made it impossible to leave with good feelings.

[UtahTexan]

Countryboy - please be patient with members. There have been times when I have looked out over the congregation and seen 5-6 people I needed to talk with. Sometimes traffic stopped me from getting to them. Sometimes children. Sometimes a class to teach. Sometimes the first person on my list. People gave gone out the door before I could get with them.

After a year I still only know about 1/4 of the people in the ward. Unfortunately, I don't recognize people well by face either. I try.

Please don't share you welcome or lack of welcome at fast and testimony meeting. Just your testimony.

I hope things go better for you this week. Feel the Spirit welcome you if nothing else.

 

If and when I share my testimony, it will not be to share the negative.  Not my style.  Testimonies should be used to uplift, not bring down or embarrass.

 

I am a patient man.  I can share my feelings here because it is part of the journey.  Does that make sense?

[Okrahomer]

If and when I share my testimony, it will not be to share the negative.  Not my style.  Testimonies should be used to uplift, not bring down or embarrass.

 

I am a patient man.  I can share my feelings here because it is part of the journey.  Does that make sense?

 

It makes a lot of sense.  And as a fellow-traveler from your neck of the woods, I say:  Enjoy the journey! 

[Rain]

If and when I share my testimony, it will not be to share the negative. Not my style. Testimonies should be used to uplift, not bring down or embarrass.

I am a patient man. I can share my feelings here because it is part of the journey. Does that make sense?

Yes.

I only mentioned the testimony because it was mentioned as a suggestion and I really get a great lift in meetings that are filled with testimonies and a let down when people use it for other things. You never know who will think it is a good idea.

You had just mentioned sometime back in the thread that you were disappointed in the members (paraphrased) and I struggle hearing that at times because I and others try really hard not to let that happen to people.

I know it must have been hard because my family has had the same experience visiting a ward, emphasized even more in our minds because the prior week we were abundantly welcomed in another ward we visited. I just wanted you to hang on and not give up hope.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Rain