Facial Hair and Church Leadership Callings

[Bernard Gui]

Best Beards in Mormon History

And the winner:

Orson Pratt

This would place at the top in the World Beard Contest. If this beard were a lion, it would

be King of the Jungle. If it were a primate, it would be King Kong. If it were music, it would

be all 9 Beethoven Symphonies. If it were a car, it would be a Bugatti Veyron.

That is one of the best sites in all internet Mormondom. I have emailed it to all my sons (6), most of whom inherited

my heavy beard and have raised shrubs at various times. Most have gotten in trouble at BYU for missing a day shaving,

and my oldest, Massimiliano Gui, can raise an impressive growth in a matter of a few days. As an artist, it is one of his

art forms and changes from week to week. He and two of his brothers, Guido Gui and Fortissimo Gui, even created an illustrated guide to artistic beards (their own illustrations, of course.) I'll link it if I can find it. I was once booted from the registration line

at BYU because my handlebar drooped below the corners of my mouth. My grandfather, Salvatore Gui, was actually a Cossack,

and had handlebars that could blow back in a strong wind, perhaps as he rode across the steppes on his little pony.

Bernard

[Mansquatch]

In my searching on LDS.org I could only ever find a couple of things about facial hair. Everything I found was for missionaries or BYU students.

One was a talk by Dallin H. Oaks when he was president of BYU in 1971. He talked about BYU standards and how the no beards policy distinguished them from hippies. http://lds.org/new-era/1971/12/standards-of-dress-and-grooming?lang=eng

Everything else I could find was geared towards missionaries.

Already did the mission and I don't go to BYU so I should be good. If I went to BYU I would get a beard card anyway because of a nasty condition.

Hopefully the hippie stigma has passed from facial hair and people can get past it. I say you don't have to look like a hobo with facial hair and the early church leaders did look pretty sweet.

[semlogo]

One of the counselors in the bishopric of my ward has a full beard. I think it's at the discretion of local leaders.

[Doctor Steuss]

When I saw this picture, methinks I saw Dr. Steuss.

http://beardteamusa.org/btusa/jackpassion/

If only I were so blessed with such magnificent facial insulation.

[katherine the great]

Isn't 'unwritten code' just code itself for 'stuff people make up'?

We have a brother in our ward who must have encountered some of this nonsense at some point because one Sunday I caught him harrassing one of our priests about his beard. He was telling the poor boy that the prophet had banned facial hair. I flipped out and asked him to identify when and where. He said it was in the handbook. I told him I was intimately familiar with the handbook and would give him $20,000 if he could show it to me.

Hahaha! I like that story. Money talks... There ARE church leaders who believe that facial hair is bad. My hubby has been YM pres twice. The first time, the bishop asked him to shave his beard and even went so far as to tell us that BYU had shaved the beard off of all their likenesses of Brigham Young (yeah right!). He also refused to issue me a temple recommend until I gave up diet coke (we both reluctantly complied after voicing our objections to him). That Bishop was released quickly and subsequently excommunicated. After we moved to another ward, hubby was again called as YM Pres with no mention of beard and no mention of coke in TR interviews. Ironically, this Bishop was previous bishop's younger brother. Different as Esau and Jacob!

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

Katherine,

That is a great story. Your bishop was clearly over the top!

Here's the scenario here:

I am really good friends with the stake president. As in, we spent Christmas with his family last year and my family and I spend probably at least an hour a week on average at their house watching movies, etc. I was called as the Elders quorum president about a year ago. I had just shaved off my goatee before being called. I asked him what the church policy was since I had heard rumor that the first presidency had actually sent out a letter saying not to ask people to shave (I'd love to confirm that and actually see a copy!!). He said that we are to be clean shaven and that there was a brother or two in the stake he would have to ask to shave since they were in leadership callings at the time. Now, I'd like to grow my goatee back, but if my leaders want me to shave I won't challenge them on it. But, on the other hand, if there is clear directive from the first presidency on the issue, I would probably point it out to them.

[mfbukowski]

My Dos Centavos:

I think at the bottom line of all this is that the "Lord's Servants" should have a certain "conservative" look. In the church's early days, "conservative" meant a beard- now it does not. Can missionaries shave their heads? No. Why not? It's not "conservative"

I mean why do missionaries have a dress code? The notion, IMO, is that if you are called to leadership you should comply with missionary dress standards since you are now also a representative of the church.

I lived in a stake in which if you had any calling which required you to attend PEC meeting, or "above"- you were to have no facial hair. The decision is made stake by stake, and that is not now a requirement of the stake I am in presently, yet most adhere to that standard anyway. I had a mustache and often a beard until I joined the church and got called as WML in that ward. I had had my mustache since I was 16, and at the age of 35, off it went, just because I believed in obedience.

So let's do away with missionary dress codes then! Why have them? What's the difference?

(Just stirring the pot- I am fine with things as they are)

[thesometimesaint]

mfbukowski:

I joined the Church after growing my mustache. No one has ever asked me to shave it off, and I've served in many leadership positions in the Church at the Ward and Stake level.

Would I if asked? Probably, but would need a VERY good reason as to why.

[mfbukowski]

mfbukowski:

I joined the Church after growing my mustache. No one has ever asked me to shave it off, and I've served in many leadership positions in the Church at the Ward and Stake level.

Would I if asked? Probably, but would need a VERY good reason as to why.

Why should the missionaries have a dress code?

Are they different? Why?

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

Why should the missionaries have a dress code?

Are they different? Why?

I'm just tossing my ideas out, not really arguing for one thing or the other...

Missionaries are full-time. Other callings (like Elders quorum president) are "part-time" so to speak. I still have my job, family, etc. What if having facial hair would help me in my career? As a teacher, I could argue that having facial hair makes me more respectable and my students are more likely to comply with my requests... (this is just way out there, but it's just an example for argument's sake). Or what if having facial hair makes me more desirable to my wife? I, after all, have a commitment to her and my body is not my own but her's too (if 1 Corinthians is to be believed).

[frankenstein]

a missionary dress code is defined by the Church, and there is a booklet and black type to point too.

locally people pulling things out of hats, really isn't a way to run a show. (like a stake president who makes up his own questions for temple recommends)

Latitude is given to local leaders, but lets not compare a personal preference (local authority) with a Church mandated missionary dress code. *provided that clean shaven on leaders has been issued as a directive from Salt Lake*

I my teenage long hair days I always pointed the numerous religious painting wherein some had long hair and some had short hair. It was enough to upset the adult trying to council me about my long hair.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Ok, so everybody knows that none of the general authorities have facial hair. We also know that generally temple works are to shave. We also know that leaders have been asked before to shave when serving in priesthood leadership positions.

My question is this--is there any official church policy regarding church leadership positions and facial hair? I seem to recollect hearing that the first presidency said not to require people to shave, but I have yet to see the letter myself or anything official myself. A little clarification would be nice. Please add whatever you know (anecdotal comments included!).

GA

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

I don

[Marmonboy]

Do local leaders make up rules? Yes, on occasion, I'm sure they do. Some of those rules come as a result of Pharisiacal (is that a word?) members who wish to complain to their leaders that we aren't all like them, and it's easier to make up such rules than to listen to the whines of others. But there aren't any rules about us humble members having a dress code,or facial hair cod, or whatever.

[Avatar4321]

There was a talk called the Unwritten Order of things, by President Packer I believe.

It may have mentioned facial hair. I dont remember. It's been a while.

I have a goatee now. I think I would shave it if I was called to leadership. I may shave it anyway. It itches.

[frankenstein]

Do local leaders make up rules? Yes, on occasion, I'm sure they do. Some of those rules come as a result of Pharisiacal (is that a word?) members who wish to complain to their leaders that we aren't all like them, and it's easier to make up such rules than to listen to the whines of others. But there aren't any rules about us humble members having a dress code,or facial hair cod, or whatever.

yep, I often hear females complain of wearing dresses to church, I say "get a suit", they respond "we can't wear those" and then we proceed to talk about how there is no rule but that the general membership is hung up on things.

[Mansquatch]

Why should the missionaries have a dress code?

Are they different? Why?

So I guess I should stop listening to music and watching tv shows too? Do my companion(wife) and I have to get separate beds and not go on dates?

[ElfLord]

Jesus, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lehi all had beards. wonder who they are going to enforce the policy in the Millenium?

[thesometimesaint]

ElfLord:

I like my mustache. We are attached.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Now, I'd like to grow my goatee back, but if my leaders want me to shave I won't challenge them on it. But, on the other hand, if there is clear directive from the first presidency on the issue, I would probably point it out to them.

So, by extension, unless there is a clear directive from the First Presidency allowing me to drink hot chocolate, I shouldn't challenge a local leader who makes an issue of hot chocolate? You do realise that there are literally an infinite number of things which fall outside of Church policy which local leaders could turn into issues? How on earth is the FP supposed to keep up with these in the issuing of clear directives to the contrary?

Joseph Fielding Smith had something to say about this process if we passively let it continue (found in Church History and Modern Revelation, Vol 1, pp 103-104, emphasis added):

It is a very interesting study to discover how ordinances and doctrines became changed in the first centuries of the Christian era. These changes date back even to the days of the apostles. Paul frequently had to rebuke, warn and counsel with the members in the several branches which he was instrumental in organizing when on his missionary journeys. He severely rebuked the saints at Corinth for desecrating the holy ordinance of the Sacrament and turning it into a feast where the Spirit of the Lord could not be present.

The first changes that came, evidently came innocently because some enterprising bishop or other officer endeavored to introduce into his meetings, or among his congregation something new

[Hamba Tuhan]

I agree. But is there sin in not following your leaders counsel even on something that seems so trivial?

From the 1852 Latter-Day Saint

[Hamba Tuhan]

yep, I often hear females complain of wearing dresses to church, I say "get a suit", they respond "we can't wear those" and then we proceed to talk about how there is no rule but that the general membership is hung up on things.

When I was studying in America back in the 90s, I visited Salt Lake City. There I went to a museum of Church history and art where one of the temporary displays included some journals kept by Brigham Young. The curators had opened the various journals to interesting points and had included explanatory material for those entries. One of the pages included the prophet's attempt at sketching 'feminine' pants for women. According to the explanation below, he'd tried to convince Eliza R Snow, Relief Society general president, of the ridiculousness of women wearing dresses. LDS women, he argued, should not be tied to the fashions of the world if they didn't make sense. She told him the sisters would never go for it since pants were too manly, so he'd tried to create an alternative. Apparently, she wasn't impressed.

[Hamba Tuhan]

So I guess I should stop listening to music and watching tv shows too? Do my companion(wife) and I have to get separate beds and not go on dates?

Exactly!

[CQUIRK]

I agree. But is there sin in not following your leaders counsel even on something that seems so trivial?

Nope.

In fact there may be sin with such leaders that introduce their own little set of rules that they force others to abide by.

That Joseph Fielding Smith quote from Post #45 hits the nail on the head.

[katherine the great]

Nope.

In fact there may be sin with such leaders that introduce their own little set of rules that they force others to abide by.

Interesting point. While I greatly admire most of my good leaders and find them righteous and worthy of emulation, there have been the occasional ones who almost seemed to do things in the interest of their own self importance. I have always tended to ignore those particular leader's counsel if possible.