Plaudits for Pahoran

[Calm]

They must feel quite embattled, it is too bad! They regard it as war with souls at stake. We have an eternity to discuss and think and get revelations. That makes for a big difference in mind set.

OTOH, they have a whole lot of history to reflect back on, bad times as well as good. I think that would give a tremendous sense of security myself.

[3DOP]

It doesn't mean a lot to me if Mormons like either Pope John Paul. The CoJCoLDS rises and falls on apostasy and restoration. The Catholic Church rises and falls on continuity. A failure in the Catholic Church in 500 or 1500 is as fatal as a failure today. In many respects, I am far more critical of the modern Catholic Church than the ancient Church that Mormons seem to think is so abhorrent. It is a powerful punch in my gut to see someone misrepresent the ancient Church, more powerful than Ahab imagines, who also imagines that excommunication implies death by fire. Ahab, that's wacky. I also defend destruction of nasty, lying literature. St. Paul was a book burner (Ac 19:19).

And many of them who had followed curious arts, brought together their books, and burnt them before all; and counting the price of them, they found the money to be fifty thousand pieces of silver.

It doesn't matter that times have seldom been Jeffersonian, that the ecclesiastical courts never carried out capital punishment, or that only professing Catholics were subject to the various Inquisitions. To Her motivated detractors, the mere allegation is enough. The allegation is effective. The detractors never dig deep. They don't for instance, usually read a book about the Spanish Inquisition before thinking themselves qualified to make judgments about it.

The Catholic Church is innocent of 99% of the crimes of which She is accused. Of those for which She is guilty, none are as vile, reproachable, or heinous as many that are recorded for our benefit in the pages of Holy Scripture where we learn that misbehavior is irrelevant with regards to ancient Israel's sins and crimes up to and including the plotting of the death of their Messiah, during which times the healed lepers are sent to the Levitical priests, for a testimony, to show that Christ was not preaching Apostasy, but Continuity. There is no standard by which we can know when a Church is apostate. Following Covenant History, one will never believe that bad behavior is proof.

I can't keep up with you all. I like you Ahab. You're saying what many think among the Mormons. "They're okay for now (those modern day Catholics)...but let them get the upper hand again and its the furnace for us!" "No!", shout I. "NO forced conversions." Never. Never has the Church approved of forced conversions. There are instances of this. In Spain. Before the Inquisition. Late 1300's. If you would bring that up instead of the Inquisition I could agree that Catholics did bad. (You would also have to acknowledge the political pressures of the times when the Moors were being expelled and the Jews were cooperating with the Moors). And you would also have to admit that the bad Catholics disobeyed the Church.

Gotta go...No four hour long posts for me today. See you again tomorrow...after another 100 posts? How do you all do it? God be with you. Thanks for your candor Ahab...you went to the heart of the matter.

3DOP

[3DOP]

Stu...Thanks again for taking note of the poem...It is by a Fr. Joseph Feeney, who later got into hot water with the Church for rigorous intepretations of "No Salvation Outside the Church". Nobody else has said a word. Poetry doesn't impose itself...but it can really be moving to certain kinds of souls...I loved it...noting that the lovely dimples are not where where Maura is but where she is absent! Hahaha. What a metaphysical joke on us. What a wonderful world...God is good...Don't be an atheist for too long Stu. Give it up before you die. Heh.

God bless you...I know you are diligently searching...and I pray God this moment that He will show His love to you and help you, and I believe He will.

Rory

[USU78]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

You stole my tag-line. Prepare to die!

[why me]

Aww, shucks folks, I'm speechless.

Previously I've been told off for being "uncharitable." It's true that there are frequently cruel, spiteful and plainly false and malicious statements in my posts, but that's because I'm quoting the attackers.

Regards,

Pahoran

That is how the moderators get a non-catholic. They begin to give warnings and add points to the future suspension. Here is how it works. An antimormon catholic makes uncharitable comments about the lds church. The lds who replies to the vileness gets his posts reported by the catholic for being uncharitable and a suspension will soon follow.

Your only crime was to defend the lds church well and score points against the mormon haters who reported you. Thus, you get suspended and will be eventually banned.

If one looks at Parker he continues to post there without a problem. But his posts are so long, I don't think that many mormonhaters are actually reading them. They consider him harmless.

[USU78]

Pahoran isn't surly, folks,

He's really quite the Teddy,

He rarely ever even shoots

A plane-hijacking Saudi.

[why me]

The Catholic Church is innocent of 99% of the crimes of which She is accused. Of those for which She is guilty, none are as vile, reproachable, or heinous as many that are recorded for our benefit in the pages of Holy Scripture where we learn that misbehavior is irrelevant with regards to ancient Israel's sins and crimes up to and including the plotting of the death of their Messiah, during which times the healed lepers are sent to the Levitical priests, for a testimony, to show that Christ was not preaching Apostasy, but Continuity. There is no standard by which we can know when a Church is apostate. Following Covenant History, one will never believe that bad behavior is proof.

3DOP

I suppose that you have a point. However, history is a cruel judge. The problem with the catholic church is in its image during the middle ages and with the reformers who came along when they decided that something was not right. And then we have the religious wars that lasted much too long with the deaths of many innocent people both protestant and catholic. And then we always have the corruption that goes along with being too close to government as the catholic leadeship was to kings and queens.

Perhaps it is all perception but perception usually works. On caf there is a lot of perception about mormons going on. But how much is truth? Not much.

I still remember how mormonhaters on caf brought up mountain meadows and how terrible it was and how the lds church was responsible. When I would compare it to the religious wars and advised catholics not to compare histories, I suppose that it was uncharitable for me to do so.

[Calm]

Stu...Thanks again for taking note of the poem...It is by a Fr. Joseph Feeney, who later got into hot water with the Church for rigorous intepretations of "No Salvation Outside the Church". Nobody else has said a word. Poetry doesn't impose itself...but it can really be moving to certain kinds of souls...I loved it...noting that the lovely dimples are not where where Maura is but where she is absent! Hahaha. What a metaphysical joke on us. What a wonderful world...God is good...Don't be an atheist for too long Stu. Give it up before you die. Heh.

God bless you...I know you are diligently searching...and I pray God this moment that He will show His love to you and help you, and I believe He will.

Rory

As always when you post you make me smile, though I don't always say so (I read the poem a couple of times but was in a lurking mood...rare, rare for me, I know....perhaps because I have a granddaughter who smiles just so, I was thinking of her at the moment, who wants to interrupt that type of thought with something so mechanical as typing?)

[zerinus]

As for the banning: I don't know what it's about. I can't see my PM's while I'm banned. I only found out when I tried to post something. (Yes, I know. How dare I?) The notice said something about "ignoring repeated moderator directions" or something.

You are suspended, not banned, and you may still be able to access your PMs, I am not sure. When they suspend you they should tell you for how long. If you think your suspension was unfair, I highly recommend that you appeal against that decision to the board administration. Contact the mods or board admin, and ask them to tell you the procedure. It is done by email direct to the board admin.

[urroner]

As always when you post you make me smile, though I don't always say so (I read the poem a couple of times but was in a lurking mood...rare, rare for me, I know....perhaps because I have a granddaughter who smiles just so, I was thinking of her at the moment, who wants to interrupt that type of thought with something so mechanical as typing?)

Rory is one of my favorite posters here. He and Dave Waltz have really changed my attitude about the RCC as Rhinomelon has about the Evangelical church and I really appreciate their efforts here.

[3DOP]

I suppose that you have a point. However, history is a cruel judge. The problem with the catholic church is in its image during the middle ages and with the reformers who came along when they decided that something was not right. And then we have the religious wars that lasted much too long with the deaths of many innocent people both protestant and catholic. And then we always have the corruption that goes along with being too close to government as the catholic leadeship was to kings and queens.

Perhaps it is all perception but perception usually works. On caf there is a lot of perception about mormons going on. But how much is truth? Not much.

I still remember how mormonhaters on caf brought up mountain meadows and how terrible it was and how the lds church was responsible. When I would compare it to the religious wars and advised catholics not to compare histories, I suppose that it was uncharitable for me to do so.

Hi why me. Thanks for the reply.

I woke up realizing that I should have said "In my opinion 99%..." or, "Arguably, 99%..." I don't agree that "history" is a cruel judge. I am not "history", neither are any of us "history". I do not believe I have made irresponsible statements about the most unpopular parts of Catholic history. The Crusades. The Inquisitions. The conversion of Latin America. I have studied. I have studied non-Catholic history. I have thought it through over and over. I have no right to be a "cruel judge". If I have erred, and it is possible, if I have been irresponsible in my selection of information, and it is possible, I have been irresponsibly selective and erring on the side of mercy. Mercy. We know it is wrong to condemn a living criminal on the basis of what one side says, but some are comfortable living their whole lives holding condemnatory views of entire peoples and cultures that they have never bothered to study about from both sides. No. I disagree why me. It is not history that is the problem. History is neutral. People are cruel, not history.

Kings and queens were much more often opposed by the Catholic Church. The monarchies, unless the monarch was especially devout, which was rare, tended to resent the influence of the Church on those they considered "subjects". They resented that the Church would intercede in the spiritual lives of their subjects to absolve them from fighting in unjust wars which centered around the expansion of the monarch's political boundaries. The monarchs resented that Rome would assert the prerogative to appoint bishops and other prelates of whom the monarch didn't approve. They didn't approve of the temporal power of the Papal States, but only as one monarch was jealous of another.

I could be willing to learn from someone on the subject of the Papal States. I could concede that this short-lived phenomenon was imprudent for the Church. I certainly could not concede that it is immoral for a pope to govern in the temporal realm, anymore than it was immoral for anyone else, Mussolini for example. But it might be a little bit of a distraction to one who has the direct instruction and salvation of souls as priority. But I digress.

I do not think it was uncharitable of you to bring up the false and irresponsible condemnations of non-Catholics regarding our history when Catholics were guilty of the same with regards to LDS history. Not at all. I haven't studied Mountain Meadows, but having seen how important it seems to anti-Mormons, I tend to think the LDS Church is innocent in the matter. I err on the side of mercy in this matter. If one consistently errs on the side of mercy in their examination of history, it will have huge implications for their church affiliations.

Just as the LDS Church is probably slandered in its short history, the Catholic Church has been slandered in Her long history, and for the same reasons...to influence church affiliation. It has always been critical to the agenda of opponents of the Catholic Church to first inflame with a sense of just indignation, by giving a partial and slanted perspective of events, and let tendencies to err on the side of cruelty rather than mercy do their work among people who are too trusting of commentators that have a great stake in demonstrating that this culture, this institution, that era, that civilization was inhumane and worthy of our collective historical condemnation and disdain. Our Lord did not say that how we judge the living, so shall we be judged. He never made a distinction that allows us license to harshly judge peoples in centuries past without becoming experts. It is okay to be less than expert on anything. But in that event, such as the Mountain Meadows Massacre for me, the uninformed must err on the side of mercy. But if one is going to pass judgment, make their opinions known regarding whether individuals or cultures are guilty of condemnation we must be studied up with both sides speaking to us. We should be experts on the subject. It seems to me that if we err on the side of condemnation about historical persons, we should be held just as responsible by a Just Judge for any culpable ignorance as if we were asleep in a jury box.

3DOP

[zerinus]

YOU can't tell them anything they will listen to, only the spirit can do that.

I would tell them what I know about the church, I would tell them my personal experiences and testimony, and then tell them to pray about it.

That's it.

Either you believe the spirit will lead them (eventually) or you don't. It is not up to YOU to convert them- it is up to you to try to get them to hear the spirit, and the spirit will do the rest.

God is in control- you aren't.

The Spirit works through the testimony of believers:

2 Nephi 33

:

1

[USU78]

Just as the LDS Church is probably slandered in its short history, the Catholic Church has been slandered in Her long history, and for the same reasons...to influence church affiliation. It has always been critical to the agenda of opponents of the Catholic Church to first inflame with a sense of just indignation, by giving a partial and slanted perspective of events, and let tendencies to err on the side of cruelty rather than mercy do their work among people who are too trusting of commentators that have a great stake in demonstrating that this culture, this institution, that era, that civilization was inhumane and worthy of our collective historical condemnation and disdain. Our Lord did not say that how we judge the living, so shall we be judged. He never made a distinction that allows us license to harshly judge peoples in centuries past without becoming experts. It is okay to be less than expert on anything. But in that event, such as the Mountain Meadows Massacre for me, the uninformed must err on the side of mercy. But if one is going to pass judgment, make their opinions known regarding whether individuals or cultures are guilty of condemnation we must be studied up with both sides speaking to us. We should be experts on the subject. It seems to me that if we err on the side of condemnation about historical persons, we should be held just as responsible by a Just Judge for any culpable ignorance as if we were asleep in a jury box.

Don't know that anybody could have said that better.

Another example from RCC history: The crusades. I have long been of the opinion that, while the Church Militant as one of many European states were rightfully concerned over continued African Muslim and Turkish Muslim incursions into SW and SE Europe, as well as S-Central Europe (Sardinia, Italy, Sicily), the Church proper's role in them was as motivator, rather than principal actor. Attacking and setting up military occupation kingdoms in the Levant was a terrific strategic success, and the slow process of pushing back against incursions into Europe could happen without serious further threat to the Kingdoms . . . other than the misery that was the Balkans. The, to our eyes, horrors committed by European Chivalry were not so very different from what occurred elsewhere in the world and one should be careful not to impose standards of conduct on warriors/occupiers that would have been unthinkable to the participants. In any even, one can hardly lay their sins at the door of the Vatican.

[Doctor Steuss]

Stu...Thanks again for taking note of the poem...It is by a Fr. Joseph Feeney, who later got into hot water with the Church for rigorous intepretations of "No Salvation Outside the Church". Nobody else has said a word. Poetry doesn't impose itself...but it can really be moving to certain kinds of souls...I loved it...noting that the lovely dimples are not where where Maura is but where she is absent! Hahaha. What a metaphysical joke on us. What a wonderful world...God is good...Don't be an atheist for too long Stu. Give it up before you die. Heh.

God bless you...I know you are diligently searching...and I pray God this moment that He will show His love to you and help you, and I believe He will.

Rory

Poetry has always been one of life's little pleasures/treasures to me (I think we tend to gravitate towards the enjoyable awe and envy of the things we can't do very well ourselves). I am partial to the humorous (Ogden Nash), and story-telling whimsical (Robert Service), but the poems from the likes of Sylvia Plath and TS Elliot have found parts of my innards that I previously didn

[mfbukowski]

The Spirit works through the testimony of believers:

2 Nephi 33

:

1

[Ahab]

I think someone searching is looking to find God through a church,

but they aren't looking for THE ONE and ONLY TRUE Church.

I think that's as it should be, with people looking for God instead of a church, but still, not all churches which have some truth are the true Church of Christ, so the more a person comes to know Christ the more they know which church is his, at which point they'll then usually join that church.

I liked your second option because it involved praying. If you can help lost souls pray, the spirit will guide them.

I try to help lost souls pray by asking them to ask God for help, even if only by acknowledging that there is a God while they try to figure out what is good or true about something, and I'll usually follow that up by saying that's what I do which is how I have come to learn the truth that I know about things, at which point somebody else will usually come along to tell me and others how "arrogant" I am by claiming to know what is true and good, and thus, the war continues.

[zerinus]

Good. Then we agree.

Except that that kind of doesn't square with this statement very well:

YOU can't tell them anything they will listen to, only the spirit can do that.

How can the Spirit tell them something if we don't? How can they be listening to the Spirit if they are not listening to us? One minute you seem to be saying that we shouldn't be telling them something, and next minute you are saying that we should. I don't think I am understanding you very well.

[Ahab]

Except that that kind of doesn't square with this statement very well:

How can the Spirit tell them something if we don't? How can they be listening to the Spirit if they are not listening to us? One minute you seem to be saying that we shouldn't be telling them something, and next minute you are saying that we should. I don't think I am understanding you very well.

I think that when he said YOU, he meant that to apply to ME.

I don't think he would have said HE can't say something others will listen to.

His WE is very selective.

[Pahoran]

You are suspended, not banned, and you may still be able to access your PMs, I am not sure. When they suspend you they should tell you for how long. If you think your suspension was unfair, I highly recommend that you appeal against that decision to the board administration. Contact the mods or board admin, and ask them to tell you the procedure. It is done by email direct to the board admin.

I don't actually care about the fairness aspect of it. I expect the moderation there to favour the home team, although I'm sure they could be a little less blatant about it. Mind you, if my theory is correct, there may be an explanation for that.

I just tried to go on there again. I can read stuff, but as soon as I try to reply, or look at my profile to read my PM's or anything else at all, I get a message that says:

Your account has been locked for the following reason:

Continued refusal to follow moderator directions

This change will be lifted: Sep 24, '10, 6:00 am

Unless they are using the Julian calendar or something, they don't seem to be following their own directions.

Somehow I don't think that place is worth the effort. I originally thought it wasn't as bad as CARM, but I may have been mistaken there.

Regards,

Pahoran

[3DOP]

Poetry has always been one of life's little pleasures/treasures to me (I think we tend to gravitate towards the enjoyable awe and envy of the things we can't do very well ourselves). I am partial to the humorous (Ogden Nash), and story-telling whimsical (Robert Service), but the poems from the likes of Sylvia Plath and TS Elliot have found parts of my innards that I previously didn

[why me]

Somehow I don't think that place is worth the effort. I originally thought it wasn't as bad as CARM, but I may have been mistaken there.

Regards,

Pahoran

It is a small band of antimormons that rule the roost of the mormon threads. It is unfortunate but such is the way it is. My only wish would have been that normal catholics would report the antimormons to the moderator and action would be done. But...it seems that catholic answers actually agrees with the antimormons. I don't consider their behavior to be catholic nor is their representation of the catholic church acurate. But...such is life on the noncatholic religion section of the forum.

The stack is against you. Catholic answers seems like the extremist wing of the catholic church in defending the faith. If FAIR was similiar the negative comments of the people who were critical of mormonism would be fierce. I can not imagine that FAIR would behave in such a way where one can read attacks against particular religious denominations on its site. Nor do I see MADb allowing people to open threads attacking other faiths as happens on catholic answers.

[Storm Rider]

It is a small band of antimormons that rule the roost of the mormon threads. It is unfortunate but such is the way it is. My only wish would have been that normal catholics would report the antimormons to the moderator and action would be done. But...it seems that catholic answers actually agrees with the antimormons. I don't consider their behavior to be catholic nor is their representation of the catholic church acurate. But...such is life on the noncatholic religion section of the forum.

The stack is against you. Catholic answers seems like the extremist wing of the catholic church in defending the faith. If FAIR was similiar the negative comments of the people who were critical of mormonism would be fierce. I can not imagine that FAIR would behave in such a way where one can read attacks against particular religious denominations on its site. Nor do I see MADb allowing people to open threads attacking other faiths as happens on catholic answers.

Extremist wing? I have to disagree. Within Christianty there is no room for their behavior. It is my firm conviction that their behavior is indicative of those whose souls are full of the spirit of contention. The Holy Spirit has no place in their lives. Their lips draw nigh unto the Savior, but he has no place in their heart. The Catholic Church is full of true Christians; seek them out and rejoice in Christ together. Avoid all those, regardless of religious affiliation, that exhibit their alligence to the father of lies. Do not engage them, but leave them to their own works. They are condemned to never come to an understanding of the truth.

[mfbukowski]

How can the Spirit tell them something if we don't? How can they be listening to the Spirit if they are not listening to us? One minute you seem to be saying that we shouldn't be telling them something, and next minute you are saying that we should. I don't think I am understanding you very well.

I quoted Moroni 10:4 to show that you can ask God a question directly and he can tell you directly the truth without someone else testifying.

Of course James 1:5 says the same thing; were it not so, the church could not have been restored. No one but God testified to Joseph in the first vision.

You do not need anyone as an intermediary to hear the spirit.

[mfbukowski]

I think that when he said YOU, he meant that to apply to ME.

I don't think he would have said HE can't say something others will listen to.

His WE is very selective.

I was not responding to you at all. Zerinus said that we could testify to someone and they could feel the spirit. That part was true.

Then I pointed out that it was not necessary to always feel the spirit only through some one else's testimony by quoting Moroni 10:4.

[mfbukowski]

I originally thought it wasn't as bad as CARM, but I may have been mistaken there.

I think it is at least as bad as CARM.