Plaudits for Pahoran

[Ahab]

In the end I just had to say that it did no matter if you served a mission, you are not qualified to talk about LDS beliefs for you are no longer LDS.

The fact that someone was once LDS isn't what disqualifies them from not knowing what it means to be LDS, though.

If he were to teach what we believe while saying he doesn't believe what we believe, that would be one thing, and a good thing, because at least he would be presenting our beliefs correctly even though he didn't believe in them.

The thing that makes Atticus look bad when he talks about LDS beliefs is when what he is talking about isn't what we believe.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The fact that someone was once LDS isn't what disqualifies them from not knowing what it means to be LDS, though.

Can't the same thing be said in reverse? That is that just because he was LDS does not mean he was qualified. You are correct that just because he is not LDS any more that disqualifies him. I should have stated that what disqualifies him is that he mis-represents LDS beliefs.

[mfbukowski]

Yep

I got suspended for discussing moderation and for "uncharitable posts". Lol.

And yes, one of my copied posts shows number 502, but the last one showing on CAF is number 481.

They deleted at least 21 posts. Interesting.

They must have REALLY felt threatened- but I thought they were pretty tame!

[Ahab]

Can't the same thing be said in reverse? That is that just because he was LDS does not mean he was qualified. You are correct that just because he is not LDS any more that disqualifies him. I should have stated that what disqualifies him is that he mis-represents LDS beliefs.

I just wanted to clear that up a little bit, because I just wanted to clearly point out the problem.

As another example, I was once a member of a church called the 'Church of Christ', but the fact that I am no longer a member of that church doesn't mean I didn't understand what the Church of Christ taught, or that I can't represent their beliefs correctly even though I am no longer a member of that church. When I talk about what they believe, it is reallly what they believe, and I actually still have a lot of the same beliefs that I had when I was involved with that church. I've simply added to them, mainly, while coming to a more perfect understanding of the scriptures which I now know they don't understand correctly.

Anyway, more plaudits for Pahoran. YaY for Pahoran!

[Ahab]

Yep

I got suspended for discussing moderation and for "uncharitable posts". Lol.

And yes, one of my copied posts shows number 502, but the last one showing on CAF is number 481.

They deleted at least 21 posts. Interesting.

They must have REALLY felt threatened- but I thought they were pretty tame!

I think they probably define "charitable posts" as posts that portray them in a good light, which is a kinda hard thing to do when you're pointing out how they are in error about something.

... but Pahoran is pretty good about doing that, usually. Hurray for Pahoran!

[zerinus]

Since they monopolize the mormon threads, it is difficult to ignore them.

I have never had any difficulty doing that.

But how can one ignore the poster who starts the OPs? Quite difficult I believe.

I don't think that is hard either. I tend to ignore the thread! But sometimes I do look in, and if I find a post which deserves a reply I reply to that post, while ignoring the OP. I don't think that is difficult at all.

And since the mormon haters start most of the mormon threads, ignoring them would be counterproductive.

I don't agree. However, by constantly starting anti-Mormon threads they do serve a useful purpose without realizing it; they maintain an interest in Mormonism on the boards, which sometimes attracts genuine inquirers who ask serious questions.

But yes, there are catholics who come on the threads although very rarely to defend the lds. Most of the catholics tend to buy into what the mormon haters are writing.

I don't think they do actually. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can tell that they have an ax to grind.

However, if mormons would just ignore the mormon threads, the hatred and bitterness will die away fast on the threads. Without mormons posting on the mormon hating threads, the thread would die a quick death.

That is true.

[todd520]

Since they monopolize the mormon threads, it is difficult to ignore them. But yes, if pahoran would have ignored them, maybe things would have worked out better. But how can one ignore the poster who starts the OPs? Quite difficult I believe. And since the mormon haters start most of the mormon threads, ignoring them would be counterproductive. But yes, there are catholics who come on the threads although very rarely to defend the lds. Most of the catholics tend to buy into what the mormon haters are writing.

However, if mormons would just ignore the mormon threads, the hatred and bitterness will die away fast on the threads. Without mormons posting on the mormon hating threads, the thread would die a quick death.

It is slower without Pahoran, but they still play volleyball on a mormon bash without us present.

The latest thread by Atticus, JS Fixes the Bible, already has 30 posts (only 1 LDS).

They've resorted to combating a Quaker who made an LDS agreeable post

[ttribe]

However, if mormons would just ignore the mormon threads, the hatred and bitterness will die away fast on the threads. Without mormons posting on the mormon hating threads, the thread would die a quick death.

Huh? Been to PostMo, RfM or MDB lately?

[Storm Rider]

News to me.

No great loss. I wonder if they deleted anything. Back soon. I made copies to post here if they did. I thought they were pretty good stuff, and totally reasonable.

When I was banned they deleted every edit I ever made. At that point it is impossbile to review your edits making anyone capable of saying, "you must have been very bad to get banned". I would have put my edits up against any of the Catholic troop that haunts the Other Religions forum for neutrality and charity. I was stunned that I was banned, but it was a sure sign they are not interested in editors making the logic and edits of Catholic look both ignorant and without merit.

[Storm Rider]

I have never had any difficulty doing that.

I don't think that is hard either. I tend to ignore the thread! But sometimes I do look in, and if I find a post which deserves a reply I reply to that post, while ignoring the OP. I don't think that is difficult at all.

I don't agree. However, by constantly starting anti-Mormon threads they do serve a useful purpose without realizing it; they maintain an interest in Mormonism on the boards, which sometimes attracts genuine inquirers who ask serious questions.

I don't think they do actually. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can tell that they have an ax to grind.

That is true.

Zerinus, I think you may very correct. These quality of edits (found on the CAF site) push more people into the waters of baptism in the LDS Church than many missionaries. So many of the hateful edits are so easily proved to be incorrect that when inividuals begin to ask questions, they are amazed at how deceitful some Catholics were and the Spirit more easily guides them into the fulness of truth.

[mfbukowski]

When I was banned they deleted every edit I ever made. At that point it is impossbile to review your edits making anyone capable of saying, "you must have been very bad to get banned". I would have put my edits up against any of the Catholic troop that haunts the Other Religions forum for neutrality and charity. I was stunned that I was banned, but it was a sure sign they are not interested in editors making the logic and edits of Catholic look both ignorant and without merit.

I keep copies of most of the posts I consider "important" for my own records.

I am only banned til 9-7 or so it appears, but it will be a long time if ever before I go back there. Last time I got reprimanded, after I was clear to post again, they kept sending me emails asking me to post again. They were probably just form letters, but there is not much point to it. With the decline of the RC I think they feel very threatened about losing more members both of the board and of the church. Half my ward (ie: actives) consists of Catholic converts. They are closing parishes all over due to no priests joining up. I was back east this summer and there are huge Catholic churches just boarded up all over! There are even shots of this on google earth- I could show several within a single neighborhood.

They must feel quite embattled, it is too bad! They regard it as war with souls at stake. We have an eternity to discuss and think and get revelations. That makes for a big difference in mind set.

[why me]

I keep copies of most of the posts I consider "important" for my own records.

I am only banned til 9-7 or so it appears, but it will be a long time if ever before I go back there. There is not much point to it. With the decline of the RC I think they feel very threatened about losing more members. Half my ward (ie: actives) consists of Catholic converts. They are closing parishes all over due to no priests joining up.

They must feel quite embattled, it is too bad! They regard it as war with souls at stake. We have an eternity to discuss and think and get revelations. That makes for a big difference in mind set.

I think that it is much more than that. But we need to remember that CAF is more than just the noncatholic religion section. There is much more to the site. But the noncatholic religion got out of hand. Basically the section is about discussion but for some reason, it got at of hand and apologetics on that site became bashing and mocking other faiths by cathoilcs who believe that is what apologetics is. And by moderators who seem to agree with the mock and bash as a way to 'defend' the catholic faith.

It is not very logical and far from being supported by the vatican.

[Ceeboo]

Another utterly sad thread (seems to be common of late )

3DOP, I am sorry to see the intent of your humble OP evolve as it has.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[zerinus]

When I was banned they deleted every edit I ever made. At that point it is impossbile to review your edits making anyone capable of saying, "you must have been very bad to get banned". I would have put my edits up against any of the Catholic troop that haunts the Other Religions forum for neutrality and charity. I was stunned that I was banned, but it was a sure sign they are not interested in editors making the logic and edits of Catholic look both ignorant and without merit.

On CAF they never used to delete people's posts. There was a new mod recently who started deleting posts left right and center.

[saemo]

With the decline of the RC I think they feel very threatened about losing more members both of the board and of the church. Half my ward (ie: actives) consists of Catholic converts. They are closing parishes all over due to no priests joining up. I was back east this summer and there are huge Catholic churches just boarded up all over! There are even shots of this on google earth- I could show several within a single neighborhood.

They must feel quite embattled, it is too bad! They regard it as war with souls at stake. We have an eternity to discuss and think and get revelations. That makes for a big difference in mind set.

I don't care about this board war sort of thing (not involved), I'll just say that it is generally those who are against the Catholic Church who hold the view that the Church is failing and we're all in a panic. It's not and we're not. Those who leave, leave. Of course they are missed, but it is their choice. Most go to Protestant churches, not Mormonism. Many return home to Christ's Church. In the end, 1) God is our judge and 2) Christ's Church has survived far worse than people not remaining faithful. For the faithful there really isn't a tie between people leaving and whether or not the Church will survive. Of course it will.

[Ahab]

...

Except for the part about where people go after they leave your (Catholic) Church, LDS would say pretty much the same thing.

I'll just say that it is generally those who are against the (LDS) Church who hold the view that the Church is failing and we're all in a panic. It's not and we're not. Those who leave, leave. Of course they are missed, but it is their choice. Most go to some other church, rather than abandoning religion altogether. Many return home to Christ's Church. In the end, 1) God is our judge and 2) Christ's Church has survived far worse than people not remaining faithful. For the faithful there really isn't a tie between people leaving and whether or not the Church will survive. Of course it will.

[saemo]

Except for the part about where people go after they leave your (Catholic) Church, LDS would say pretty much the same thing.

I'll just say that it is generally those who are against the (LDS) Church who hold the view that the Church is failing and we're all in a panic. It's not and we're not. Those who leave, leave. Of course they are missed, but it is their choice. Most go to some other church, rather than abandoning religion altogether. Many return home to Christ's Church. In the end, 1) God is our judge and 2) Christ's Church has survived far worse than people not remaining faithful. For the faithful there really isn't a tie between people leaving and whether or not the Church will survive. Of course it will.

Yes, and I agree to your point. Especially in regards to converts. There are 600 adult convert baptisms into the Catholic Church a year in Utah. Does this reflect something horribly wrong about Mormonism and are Mormons in a panic? Of course not.

[Ahab]

Yes, and I agree to your point. Especially in regards to converts. There are 600 adult convert baptisms into the Catholic Church a year in Utah. Does this reflect something horribly wrong about Mormonism and are Mormons in a panic? Of course not.

Without saying anything about which particular group is in which position, I'll simply say that I see each group of religious people as either a step up or step down from another group, except for the one at the very bottom of the rung of the ladder (so to speak) and the one at the top which is the very best one out of all of them.

No two groups are exactly alike, otherwise they would be one and the same group, so when people don't stick with one they have to go somewhere, and they're either taking a step up or a step down whenever they change their position.

It's not until people start naming the groups that tempers start flaring and feelings get hurt, because what is the worst group to some people is the very best one to some other people, even though in God's perspective, there is only one that is his.

And btw, I know that not everybody agrees with what I have said, because some people actually believe one group is just as good as any other.

[mfbukowski]

Yes, and I agree to your point. Especially in regards to converts. There are 600 adult convert baptisms into the Catholic Church a year in Utah. Does this reflect something horribly wrong about Mormonism and are Mormons in a panic? Of course not.

Six HUNDRED? In the STATE? And how many of those were Mormons? Uh, no, I am not in a panic.

[Ahab]

Six HUNDRED? In the STATE? And how many of those were Mormons? Uh, no, I am not in a panic.

What if you knew one of them, personally?

I'm guessing "panic" would still be too strong of a word, but honestly, you would be at least a tad "disappointed" if someone you knew became something other than LDS, wouldn't you?

I think if we were all totally honest with each other, at least most of us would admit that none of us like it when someone joins a group other than our own, or at least not when we really like that person.

[mfbukowski]

If I personally knew someone who had just joined the Catholic Church, I would be happy for them!

Why not? The goal here is to get closer to Christ! If that brings them closer to Christ- fantastic!

[mfbukowski]

Of course I live in a place where there are 17 million people within 100 miles in all directions, and probably 20 or more million within 150 miles.

And we are get several baptisms a year into my ward alone who were Catholic.

[Ahab]

If I personally knew someone who had just joined the Catholic Church, I would be happy for them!

Why not? The goal here is to get closer to Christ! If that brings them closer to Christ- fantastic!

Don't you believe someone can get closer to Christ in the true Church of Christ, more than in any other group?

Try taking the names of the Churches out of the picture, for a moment, and then tell me what you think would be better:

1) Someone joining a group other than the true Church of Jesus Christ

2) Someone joining the true Church of Jesus Christ

And if you'd like another option:

3) Someone not joining any group of religious people, if that were actually possible.

[ttribe]

Don't you believe someone can get closer to Christ in the true Church of Christ, more than in any other group?

Try taking the names of the Churches out of the picture, for a moment, and then tell me what you think would be better:

1) Someone joining a group other than the true Church of Jesus Christ

2) Someone joining the true Church of Jesus Christ

And if you'd like another option:

3) Someone not joining any group of religious people, if that were actually possible.

I believe Bishop Bukowski is showing the proper example and demonstrating that, of course, the first preference would be to join the LDS Church (given our beliefs), but in the absence of such a move, he celebrates ANYONE taking steps to come closer to Christ and His teachings.

[Ahab]

I believe Bishop Bukowski is showing the proper example and demonstrating that, of course, the first preference would be to join the LDS Church (given our beliefs), but in the absence of such a move, he celebrates ANYONE taking steps to come closer to Christ and His teachings.

If that's what he meant, I wish he would say so.

And, of course, as any bishop of our Lord's church should know, the best way to get closer to Jesus Christ is to join the true Church of Jesus Christ, rather than to join another group.