Plaudits for Pahoran

[ttribe]

If that's what he meant, I wish he would say so.

I suspect he will. Remember patience is, indeed, a virtue.

And, of course, as any bishop of our Lord's church should know, the best way to get closer to Jesus Christ is to join the true Church of Jesus Christ, rather than to join another group.

I'm sure he does, but is not so dogmatic in his approach.

[saemo]

If that's what he meant, I wish he would say so.

And, of course, as any bishop of our Lord's church should know, the best way to get closer to Jesus Christ is to join the true Church of Jesus Christ, rather than to join another group.

And, of course, any convert knows that the people from the religion you left, think the same about you, personally. Yet, you know what they believe about your own experiences are off. VERY off. So how is it that we should speak for the experience of others? You can't.

[Ahab]

I suspect he will. Remember patience is, indeed, a virtue.

I'm sure he does, but is not so dogmatic in his approach.

I am known by most who know me as a man without guile, and very direct, rather than as a man who is dogmatic in his approach.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with being dogmatic as long as a person knows what the true dogma is, and who it comes from.

[Ahab]

And, of course, any convert knows that the people from the religion you left, think the same about you, personally. Yet, you know what they believe about your own experiences are off. VERY off. So how is it that we should speak for the experience of others? You can't.

You can share what you know is true, though, even if someone else doesn't agree with you.

The fact that someone may not have experienced what I have experienced doesn't mean that I don't know the truth that I know.

[ttribe]

I am known by most who know me as a man without guile, and very direct, rather than as a man who is dogmatic in his approach.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with being dogmatic as long as a person knows what the true dogma is, and who it comes from.

Nifty.

[Ahab]

Nifty.

I can tell that you're very impressed.

[saemo]

You can share what you know is true, though, even if someone else doesn't agree with you.

The fact that someone may not have experienced what I have experienced doesn't mean that I don't know the truth that I know.

Same here.

[Ahab]

Same here.

I think the tricky part is to share something that someone doesn't know yet without offending them.

For example, I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. You don't know that, yet, though, so the thought that he actually was, along with all of the ramifations that go along with that, are a bit of an offense to you... or, rather than offense, perhaps I should say something that makes you at least a wee bit uncomfortable.

[mfbukowski]

I do not think- I know- that the Church of JC LDS is the "one true church" in the sense that it has every doctrine and practice which is necessary for us to get the closest to Christ we possibly can get in this life and by following its path, we may be able to approach becoming like our Father through his totally amazing gift which allows us to achieve exaltation in the eternities.

That said, I also know through personal experience that some people take other paths to find the truth.

Were that not true, we would have no need to do work for the dead.

God leads us and directs us from where we are to the BEST path for us personally to achieve the celestial kingdom, but it is not always a straight line.

I think it is clear that there are those who are born into marginally LDS households and some who are born into wonderful LDS households who have a need to try it on their own and follow an alternative path, as clearly shown by some of the sincere seekers on the trailer park who feel they have legitimate gripes against the church.

Others over there clearly are not "sincere seekers" but I know there ARE indeed some who are.

If you have some problem with the church and decide to become Catholic and therefore become closer to Christ, more power to you!

I know some at CAF who have a REAL problem with polygamy for example- imo they need to get over that, but they have not. So for now, I think it is better for them to be there.

If someone is one skid row and goes to the Midnight Mission and becomes an evangelical and accepts Christ as his savior and is "saved"- FANTASTIC!

Further in his progression, perhaps on the other side, when the missionaries find him, he may join the true path, but until then, let him mature in his testimony of Christ where he is until he is ready to move on.

Life is complicated- and there are many confusing paths. It is best to choose the best path, of course, but there are paths which are better than others until you find the best.

It's as simple as that!

Edit: I am an incredibly skeptical person and I found the church after being an atheist. I firmly believe that had I been born into the church, I would have left.

Who knows- perhaps I would have gotten "stuck" where some of those guys at the trailer park are- I have been exactly where they are and know how it is to be that way!

For whatever reason, the Lord decided to give me several extremely powerful spiritual experiences which proved to me beyond a doubt - as surely as I am typing this- that this is his church.

Had I not had those experiences, all bets are off as to where I would be now. I don't know WHY he did, I just know that he did!

Edit 2:

And my siggy shows how I feel about dogma.

[saemo]

I think the tricky part is to share something that someone doesn't know yet without offending them.

For example, I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. You don't know that, yet, though, so the thought that he actually was, along with all of the ramifations that go along with that, are a bit of an offense to you... or, rather than offense, perhaps I should say something that makes you at least a wee bit uncomfortable.

Nah, I just don't believe it.

Christ is my Prophet, Priest and King. No need to find offense in someone who is not.

[mfbukowski]

I think the tricky part is to share something that someone doesn't know yet without offending them.

For example, I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. You don't know that, yet, though, so the thought that he actually was, along with all of the ramifations that go along with that, are a bit of an offense to you... or, rather than offense, perhaps I should say something that makes you at least a wee bit uncomfortable.

I'd like to suggest that that is not the way to win his heart.

Of course I am as guilty of the same approach all the time!

[ttribe]

I can tell that you're very impressed.

Very.

[mfbukowski]

Dang it ttribe- you had to out me didn't you??!!

Now I have to be good!

[Ahab]

I do not think- I know- that the Church of JC LDS is the "one true church" in the sense that it has every doctrine and practice which is necessary for us to get the closest to Christ we possibly can get in this life and by following its path, we may be able to approach becoming like our Father through his totally amazing gift which allows us to achieve exaltation in the eternities.

That said, I also know through personal experience that some people take other paths to find the truth.

Were that not true, we would have no need to do work for the dead.

God leads us and directs us from where we are to the BEST path for us personally to achieve the celestial kingdom, but it is not always a straight line.

I think it is clear that there are those who are born into marginally LDS households and some who are born into wonderful LDS households who have a need to try it on their own and follow an alternative path, as clearly shown by some of the sincere seekers on the trailer park who feel they have legitimate gripes against the church.

Others over there clearly are not "sincere seekers" but I know there ARE indeed some who are.

If you have some problem with the church and decide to become Catholic and therefore become closer to Christ, more power to you!

I know some at CAF who have a REAL problem with polygamy for example- imo they need to get over that, but they have not. So for now, I think it is better for them to be there.

If someone is one skid row and goes to the Midnight Mission and becomes an evangelical and accepts Christ as his savior and is "saved"- FANTASTIC!

Further in his progression, perhaps on the other side, when the missionaries find him, he may join the true path, but until then, let him mature in his testimony of Christ where he is until he is ready to move on.

Life is complicated- and there are many confusing paths. It is best to choose the best path, of course, but there are paths which are better than others until you find the best.

It's as simple as that!

Are you advocating the idea that, for some people, it's better for them to join some Church, ANY Church, rather than joining the true Church of Jesus Christ... whichever Church that actually is ???

If you are, then you don't seem to be on board with the idea that there is no better Church than the true Church of Jesus Christ... whichever Church that actually is.

I know some people hit and miss when trying to find the true Church of Jesus Christ, in which case I believe they should try again to find it, but in no way is there any church which is better than the one true Church of Jesus Christ... whichever Church that actually is.

So, to help people out when they don't seem to know which group is the one true Church of Jesus Christ, while you believe you know which one that is, what would you tell them?

Would you say something like:

1) that's not the one I believe is the one true Church of Jesus Christ, but if you want to join it, go ahead, and I'll be happy for you

OR

2) this one right here is the one true Church of Jesus Christ, and if you don't want to take my word for it just ask God to confirm that this one is his.

[Ahab]

I'd like to suggest that that is not the way to win his heart.

Of course I am as guilty of the same approach all the time!

As I said, the tricky part is to share some aspect of truth that others haven't learned yet without offending them, or causing them to feel uncomfortable.

i know there are some limitations on the "without guile" and "very direct" approach, but I stil think it's important to try to share the truth that we know with others, even when not everyone will agree with us.

[mfbukowski]

So, to help people out when they don't seem to know which group is the one true Church of Jesus Christ, while you believe you know which one that is, what would you tell them?

YOU can't tell them anything they will listen to, only the spirit can do that.

I would tell them what I know about the church, I would tell them my personal experiences and testimony, and then tell them to pray about it.

That's it.

Either you believe the spirit will lead them (eventually) or you don't. It is not up to YOU to convert them- it is up to you to try to get them to hear the spirit, and the spirit will do the rest.

God is in control- you aren't.

[Ahab]

Very.

I said very.

Would you feel better now if I said that I know you are very, very, very, very, very, very impressed?

[ttribe]

I said very.

Would you feel better now if I said that I know you are very, very, very, very, very, very impressed?

Nope. Just agreeing with you.

[Ahab]

YOU can't tell them anything they will listen to, only the spirit can do that.

The Spirit works with the truth we share with others. It's not as if we limit the Holy Spirit when we open our mouths to share truth.

Even right now, while I am sharing some words of truth with you, the Spirit is helping you to see that at least some of what I am saying is true,

That doesn't mean you're going to come back and say something like: Thank you, thank you, I now see the err of my ways.

... but, still, the Holy Spirit is helping you to see that my words are true, even if you choose to fight against what God is telling you through my words.

I would tell them what I know about the church, I would tell them my personal experiences and testimony, and then tell them to pray about it.

That's it.

Testimony, Yes. Testimony from God is what I am sharing with you right now.

Either you believe the spirit will lead them (eventually) or you don't. It is not up to YOU to convert them- it is up to you to try to get them to hear the spirit, and the spirit will do the rest.

The way I try to get others to hear the Spirit, to use your own words, is by sharing what I know is true with them.

That's what testimony is, and I know what is true through God who helps me to know what is true, just as God can also help someone else to know what is true. It works better when I say something, though, rather than when I am silent and acting as if people will learn what I know through osmosis.

God is in control- you aren't.

God and I work together. We are both on the same team.

[Ahab]

Nope. Just agreeing with you.

Sometimes I'm trying to be funny, FYI.

Sometimes I hope you are too.

[todd520]

I think someone searching is looking to find God through a church,

but they aren't looking for THE ONE and ONLY TRUE Church

I liked your second option because it involved praying. If you can help lost souls pray, the spirit will guide them.

So, to help people out when they don't seem to know which group is the one true Church of Jesus Christ, while you believe you know which one that is, what would you tell them?

Would you say something like:

1) that's not the one I believe is the one true Church of Jesus Christ, but if you want to join it, go ahead, and I'll be happy for you

OR

2) this one right here is the one true Church of Jesus Christ, and if you don't want to take my word for it just ask God to confirm that this one is his.

[ttribe]

Sometimes I hope you are too.

I am known for my grim humorlessness. Just ask Dr. Scratch, he'll tell you.

[zerinus]

Nah, I just don't believe it.

Christ is my Prophet, Priest and King. No need to find offense in someone who is not.

That is why in the LDS Church we bear testimonies. For example, I could quote you the following verses from the Book of Mormon, and leave it at that:

Ether 12

:

36 And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace, that they might have charity.

37 And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me: If they have not charity it mattereth not unto thee, thou hast been faithful; wherefore, thy garments shall be made clean. And because thou hast seen thy weakness thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father.

38 And now I, Moroni, bid farewell unto the Gentiles, yea, and also unto my brethren whom I love, until we shall meet before the judgment-seat of Christ, where all men shall know that my garments are not spotted with your blood.

39 And then shall ye know that I have seen Jesus, and that he hath talked with me face to face, and that he told me in plain humility, even as a man telleth another in mine own language, concerning these things;

40 And only a few have I written, because of my weakness in writing.

41 And now, I would commend you to seek this Jesus of whom the prophets and apostles have written, that the grace of God the Father, and also the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of them, may be and abide in you forever. Amen.

2 Nephi 33

:

13 And now, my beloved brethren, all those who are of the house of Israel, and all ye ends of the earth, I speak unto you as the voice of one crying from the dust: Farewell until that great day shall come.

14 And you that will not partake of the goodness of God, and respect the words of the Jews, and also my words, and the words which shall proceed forth out of the mouth of the Lamb of God, behold, I bid you an everlasting farewell, for these words shall condemn you at the last day.

15 For what I seal on earth, shall be brought against you at the judgment bar; for thus hath the Lord commanded me, and I must obey. Amen.

Once we have borne our testimonies, our job is done. We have no control over what happens next. It is left in the Lord's hands to do as seemeth Him good.

[mfbukowski]

... but, still, the Holy Spirit is helping you to see that my words are true, even if you choose to fight against what God is telling you through my words.

It's hard to feel the spirit through your arrogance.

Dude, you need some people skills.

I am not fighting you at all, never were. I'm done. Amen....

You asked ME the question, and I answered it. And for that I am fighting God? I don't think so!

[Pahoran]

I don't intend to comment further, but I want to publicly commend Pahoran. I have been a fan from Day One. I made one post over at Catholic Answers in agreement with his reasoning on Source and Scope. Old Stuff...from ZLMB Days. I have been granting that for 10 years now. You can define yourselves. I don't need the Journal of Discourses to keep from being LDS!

Anyway, I couldn't possibly participate meaningfully where posts were appearing every few minutes. I have had fun doing it that way very rarely. My style doesn't seem to fit those faster paced threads. I didn't read anywhere near all of them. Maybe I missed what got him suspended. I checked out the last few of Pahoran's posts before his suspension and he seemed like a perfectly patient gentleman and was restrained while on the opponent's home field. I guess the LDS Church must be true after all...Hahaha. You know I jest.

Aww, shucks folks, I'm speechless.

(I know, I know. It's a miracle!)

Thank you for your kind words. I don't know if you noticed, 3DOP, but I earlier mentioned you on CAF as someone who set a good example of Catholic behaviour, who was liked and welcomed here, and who behaved better than the resident Mormon-bashers over there. Granted that the last point was not much of a compliment -- one might say much the same about a petulant three-year-old -- still I hoped that it might give them pause, if only for a moment.

As for the banning: I don't know what it's about. I can't see my PM's while I'm banned. I only found out when I tried to post something. (Yes, I know. How dare I?) The notice said something about "ignoring repeated moderator directions" or something.

Previously I've been told off for being "uncharitable." It's true that there are frequently cruel, spiteful and plainly false and malicious statements in my posts, but that's because I'm quoting the attackers.

Regards,

Pahoran