Chapel Mormons

[Daniel Peterson]

B. H. Roberts, Comprehensive History of the Church, 2. 252

This narrative extends from the 22nd of June, 1844 to the 29th of June, closing with the account of the burial of the Prophet; to which was added, in later years, excerpts from Ford's History of Illinois. (See Millennial Star, Vol. XXIV, pp. 332, et seq, to p. 584). Also this division of the history is published in History of the Church, Period I, Vol. VI, Chs. xxviii to xxxiii, inclusive.

A second Compilation of data was made by the church historian extending from the 22nd of June, 1844, to August the 8th of the same year, at which time the quorum of the twelve apostles was accepted as the presiding council of the church, and with that incident the church historians close what they call in the Millennial Star, The History of Joseph Smith. (See Millennial Star, Vol. XXIV, pp. 598 et seq. passim, to p. 792; and in Vol. XXV of the Star, from p. 6, et seq, passim, to p. 280, inclusive). Of these compilations and the whole History of Joseph Smith, cited so frequently in these pages as the History of the Church, Period I, the church historians, George A. Smith and Wilford Woodruff say:

"* * * The History of Joseph Smith is now before the world and we are satisfied that a history more correct in its details than this was never published. To have it strictly correct, the greatest possible pains have been taken by the historians and clerks engaged in the work. They were eye and ear witnesses of nearly all the transactions recorded in this history, most of which were reported as they transpired, and, where they were not personally present, they have had access to those who were.

Moreover, since the death of the Prophet Joseph, the history has been carefully revised under the strict inspection of President Brigham Young, and approved of by him.

B. H. Roberts, Comprehensive History of the Church, 2. 253

We, therefore, hereby bear our testimony to all the world, unto whom these words shall come, that the History of Joseph Smith is true, and is one of the most authentic histories ever written.

We were, much of the time associated with him in his travels and ministry since he organized the church of Christ upon the earth. He labored diligently for the salvation and benefit of the human family. He ever taught and practiced, in public and in private, virtue, holiness and truth.

His brother Hyrum was martyred at the same time with him. He, also, was a great and good man, a wise counselor to his brother Joseph and a prophet and patriarch in the church, and the spirit of his office was with him up to the time of his death.

They were slain for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, and the people and nation who have persecuted them unto death and shed their blood will assuredly find their words fulfilled upon their heads, even in speedy and certain destruction, as were the words of the Savior fulfilled upon the Jewish nation for stoning and killing the prophets and shedding the blood of the Lord's anointed.

[signed] "Geo. A. Smith, Wilford Woodruff, Historians."

After the above sources our main church annals are published in the Millennial Star, under the title, History of Brigham Young, beginning in Vol. XXV, p. 295, and continuing to Vol. XXVII, p. 553. This division of the published annals consists of the Autobiography of Brigham Young, from his birth up to the 8th of August meeting at Nauvoo, 1844; and the Histories and Autobiographies of a number of other leading elders, among them Thomas B. Marsh, David W. Patten, Heber C. Kimball, Willard Richards et al. After this our annals are in Ms. volumes scattered through many private Journals, Senate and House executive Documents; and always the Revelations given to the church; periodicals and private and official documents.

Last Messages--Cyrus Wheelock

B. H. Roberts, Comprehensive History of the Church, 2. 267-268

Early in the morning of the 27th, Cyrus Wheelock visited the prisoners. The morning was a little rainy and Wheelock wore an overcoat, in the inside pocket of which he carried a six-shooter. He passed the guard without close inspection and before leaving the prison handed the revolver to President Smith. As the latter took it, he handed to his brother Hyrum a single-barreled pistol left with him earlier in the morning by John S. Fullmer, and remarked: "You may have use for this."

"I hate to use such things or to see them used," said Hyrum Smith. "So do I," replied Joseph, "but we may have to defend ourselves."

Upon this Hyrum took the Fullmer pistol. These were the only weapons the prisoners had, except a heavy hickory walking cane left by Stephen Markham when he took leave of the prisoners.

B. H. Roberts, Comprehensive History of the Church, 2.284-285

Then instantly rising to his feet he drew the pistol Cyrus Wheelock had left him, and with a quick, firm step, and determined expression in his face he advanced to the doom and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the loads, however, were discharged. /note 19/

Note 19: Hay says four shots were fired--his information came, of course, from the mob side. He also says that Joseph Smith had "two loaded, six-barrelled revolvers," and hints at responsibility attaching to General Miner R. Deming, whom he calls the "Jack-Mormon sheriff of Hancock county," for the prisoners having arms. The statement is not accurate, either as to Deming's responsibility or the pistols, since Joseph had but one six-barrelled ("pepper-box" type) revolver, and Hyrum a single-barrelled pistol which was not used; and Fullmer and Cyrus Wheelock left the pistols with the prisoners. Hay refers to the resistance of the Prophet to the mob as a "handsome fight," and also refers to four being wounded: "Joe Smith died bravely. He stood by the jamb of the door and fired four shots, bringing his man down every time. He shot an Irishman named Wills, who was in the affair from his congenital love of a brawl, in the arm; Gallagher, a southerner from the Mississippi Bottom, in the face; Voorhees, a half grown, hobbledehoy from Bear Creek, in the shoulder; and another gentleman, whose name I will not mention, as he is prepared to prove an alibi, and besides stands six feet two in his moccasins." [sic] ! Parley Pratt gives an account of learning in California, 1856, from a Mrs. Lawn--widow of one of the captains of the McDonough militia--of a Mr. Townsend being among those who forced the jail door at Carthage, and was wounded in the arm near the shoulder, from the effects of which he died in about six months. (Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, 475-6).

1905 "The Mormon Prophet's Tragedy," Orson F. Whitney: A review of an Article by the late John Hay, published originally in the Atlantic Monthly for December, 1869, and republished in the Saints Herald of June 21, 1905. Whitney

[Daniel Peterson]

1950 Joseph Fielding Smith, Essentials in Church History (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1950; 16th edition 1960): 382-3:

[Daniel Peterson]

Incidentally, back to the original thread-question of "Internet Mormons," "Chapel Mormons," unicorns, leprechauns, snipes, left-handed smoke-shifters, and shape-shifting lizard men:

Over at his compound, commenting upon this very thread, my Malevolent Stalker has revealed the fact that I'm "hostile" to "Chapel Mormons" and, in fact, that I "hate the Chapel Mormon with a white-hot fury."

His revelation appears to have been received warmly and without dissent by the three members of his audience there (I exclude myself, because I have . . . umm, doubts), and it has been heartily endorsed by his faithful disciple.

[sunstoned]

IIRC the church at one time had the pepper box revolver (or one like it) that JS used at Carthage on display. Even as a kid I knew the story of JS having the gun and firing it in self defense. This is one aspect of church history that has not be glossed over.

[Daniel Peterson]

IIRC the church at one time had the pepper box revolver (or one like it) that JS used at Carthage on display. Even as a kid I knew the story of JS having the gun and firing it in self defense. This is one aspect of church history that has not be glossed over.

It's still on display at the Museum of Church History and Art.

This is only one of the many fiendishly cunning methods that Church leaders have employed in order to conceal the pistol from today's Markks.

[WalkerW]

Markk,

We all wait with bated breath. Just say it for us, Markk: "I'm sorry. I was wrong."

It is ok to be wrong. Come on. Take it like a man.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Seldom has anyone been so thoroughly served on this board as Markk has been by Dan Peterson. Will he admit his folly? I doubt it.

[Wiki Wonka]

Seldom has anyone been so thoroughly served on this board as Markk has been by Dan Peterson. Will he admit his folly? I doubt it.

Yet I see no mention of the gun between 1970 and 1972...a definite formative period of my childhood.

[Calm]

He ran away Cal

to a window outside of which he knew there was a mob with guns just like at the door....right "ran away".

[Markk]

1950 Joseph Fielding Smith, Essentials in Church History (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1950; 16th edition 1960): 382-3:

[Markk]

to a window outside of which he knew there was a mob with guns just like at the door....right "ran away".

Hi Cal,

DP is a master at switch and bait and spinning to avoid context in these conversations, you are not. Again the context is that he ran away from his friends, and the window was the only possible escape. Try to keep this in context with my conversation with Wade and his theory of the martyrdom and that he knew he was going to die and yet fought back, the opposite of Christ.

Mark

[Scott Lloyd]

Or, he was just trying to save his own skin, just as likely? Maybe he should have taken a cane and gave the gun to one of the other men if he knew he was going to die. Given that there was windows in the jail and a bunch of men with guns were gathering, he just might have figured out that they weren't coming for tea. Also given his running to the window after his gun misfired and leaving his brother and friends doesn't lend well with him defending anyone but himself.

Mark

This is so blatantly absurd as to seem disingenuous. That is to say, I can't see how anyone of standard intelligence could conclude from the known historic facts that Joseph went to the window because he was "running away." Running away to what? To sure death at the hands of a mob of armed and murderous men waiting outside below the window?

If Markk truly has deluded himself into accepting the above absurd spin on the facts, he truly is in a pathetic state.

[Scott Lloyd]

I think it would be a great pinned thread to have a record of "failed prophecies" by apostates going back decades.

Back on the old Zion's Lighthouse Message Board (ZLMB), a guy going by the handle "Brianspro" predicted that within the next 10 years, the Church would "mainstream" itself to the point of becoming pretty much indistinguishable from most Protestant sects. That was back on Feb. 20, 2004. I made a note in PDA with an alarm for Feb. 20, 2014, to revisit what he called his prophecy. He only has about four more years to go, and the Church is no closer to fulfilling his prediction than it was in 2004.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Dan Peterson: Can you show me where the gun was mentioned in a Church service on the third Sunday of October in 1974? If not, it's pretty clear you all have something to hide.

[Deborah]

Again the context is that he ran away from his friends, and the window was the only possible escape.

The gun issue is absurd, but this surpasses that claim. You do realize that this was on the second floor and that the armed mob was right below the window? It is apparent Joseph in fact ran to the window after he saw Hyrum fall to save his friends. He knew if they killed him they might lose interest in the others. This in fact was the result and John Taylor and Willard Richards were spared. There was no possible escape at the window and for you to continue to assert such shows a total escape from reality.

[Markk]

This is so blatantly absurd as to seem disingenuous. That is to say, I can't see how anyone of standard intelligence could conclude from the known historic facts that Joseph went to the window because he was "running away." Running away to what? To sure death at the hands of a mob of armed and murderous men waiting outside below the window?

If Markk truly has deluded himself into accepting the above absurd spin on the facts, he truly is in a pathetic state.

" Running away to what?

From his Friend, his wounded friend, and dead or dying brother, you need to read what I write Deborah. Go back and read the context. the fact is you don't know anymore than I do what was going through his head, and all we have is the "story".

Mark

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Hi Cal,

DP is a master at switch and bait and spinning to avoid context in these conversations, you are not. Again the context is that he ran away from his friends, and the window was the only possible escape. Try to keep this in context with my conversation with Wade and his theory of the martyrdom and that he knew he was going to die and yet fought back, the opposite of Christ.

Mark

I agree some one in this thread is a master at switch and bait. You have originally claimed that it was never about the gun but that knowing about the gun disqualified JS statement that he was being led like a lamb to the slaughter.You havn't even addressed your origianl claim.

Nice bait and switch. You cant even get that right.

[WalkerW]

So of all these, how many were the teaching manuals

How about instead of being lazy like you were in the past with your research, you actually look them up yourself? Most of us learn from past mistakes. Apparently, you are still in teenager mode.

Again maybe you reseached and studied on your own many of these book etc, I didn't

And whose fault is that? Wait for it...Oh, that's right: yours.

The only one I might have had a chance to run accross was the ERA in 69, but I was reading Boys Life

See above.

So do you think that the full story was taught in SS, PH, RS or a modern conference in our generation growing up in the church, please supply cf

I don't remember the gun being taught in seminary or my classes. But you know what? I don't remember my classes really at all. You know why? Because I was a punk teenager who didn't care and didn't pay attention. The gun could have been taught (along with many other things), but I would have never known. The blame would therefore fall on me.

Something the General Authorities and classes have always taught, though, is personal study. I know that for a fact. Maybe you missed out on that one too...

[ttribe]

Incidentally, back to the original thread-question of "Internet Mormons," "Chapel Mormons," unicorns, leprechauns, snipes, left-handed smoke-shifters, and shape-shifting lizard men:

Over at his compound, commenting upon this very thread, my Malevolent Stalker has revealed the fact that I'm "hostile" to "Chapel Mormons" and, in fact, that I "hate the Chapel Mormon with a white-hot fury."

His revelation appears to have been received warmly and without dissent by the three members of his audience there (I exclude myself, because I have . . . umm, doubts), and it has been heartily endorsed by his faithful disciple.

Did you happen to catch Ray A's gem in that thread "over there"? Unbelievable.

[Nofear]

Back on the old Zion's Lighthouse Message Board (ZLMB), a guy going by the handle "Brianspro" predicted that within the next 10 years, the Church would "mainstream" itself to the point of becoming pretty much indistinguishable from most Protestant sects. That was back on Feb. 20, 2004. I made a note in PDA with an alarm for Feb. 20, 2014, to revisit what he called his prophecy. He only has about four more years to go, and the Church is no closer to fulfilling his prediction than it was in 2004.

Nice. Thanks for the post!

[Markk]

I agree some one in this thread is a master at switch and bait. You have originally claimed that it was never about the gun but that knowing about the gun disqualified JS statement that he was being led like a lamb to the slaughter.You havn't even addressed your origianl claim.

Nice bait and switch. You cant even get that right.

Hi Mola,

Do you have any idea about what the context was in my discussion with Wade? Maybe, just maybe, we were discussing different aspects of the martyrdom, again you have proven your not reading but typing. I'll give you this though, I certainly got the "switch and bait vs bait and switch" wrong, good job Mola.

Mark

[consiglieri]

From his Friend, his wounded friend, and dead or dying brother, you need to read what I write Deborah. Go back and read the context. the fact is you don't know anymore than I do what was going through his head, and all we have is the "story".

Mark

If I recall correctly, John Taylor has already run to the window and been shot, falling backwards into the room, before Joseph Smith ran to the window and was shot, falling out and down where the majority of the armed mob was assembled.

Does this add anything to the discussion?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Doctor Steuss]

Markk,

I have a rather large collection of various church manuals (mainly priesthood manuals, but some gospel doctrine, and CES manuals).

As the massive amount of references to Church publications, resources, materials, exhibits, and so forth, of Joseph Smith having a pistol, and firing it while he and his brother and friends were being ruthlessly gunned down by a mob haven

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Hi Mola,

Do you have any idea about what the context was in my discussion with Wade? Maybe, just maybe, we were discussing different aspects of the martyrdom, again you have proven your not reading but typing. I'll give you this though, I certainly got the "switch and bait vs bait and switch" wrong, good job Mola.

Mark

I don't care what the supposed "context" is Markk That has nothing to do with what I wrote.

I know what you have told me, and I am trying to get to the heart of the matter, but you wont. Your own words were, that you didn't care about the gun but that the gun disqualified JS being lead like a lamb to the slaughter. Then you continue on in this lame "what manuels was the gun mentioned in". There is the bait and switch Markk.

You have demonstarted that you don't care about the evidence and that you really don't even have a good arguemnet to be made. And I am not the one that has proven that I am not good at reading but typing. Your words. You have made a fool of your self and instead of just saying "Ok yeah I was wrong" you continue to push the issue. THis is not my problem Markk.

[Markk]

I don't care what the supposed "context" is Markk That has nothing to do with what I wrote.

I know what you have told me, and I am trying to get to the heart of the matter, but you wont. Your own words were, that you didn't care about the gun but that the gun disqualified JS being lead like a lamb to the slaughter. Then you continue on in this lame "what manuels was the gun mentioned in". There is the bait and switch Markk.

You have demonstarted that you don't care about the evidence and that you really don't even have a good arguemnet to be made. And I am not the one that has proven that I am not good at reading but typing. Your words. You have made a fool of your self and instead of just saying "Ok yeah I was wrong" you continue to push the issue. THis is not my problem Markk.

Hi Mola,

I don't care about the gun, I would have used a gun also,I don't blame Smith one bit for using it to defend himself, the point is that I was taught JS went to his death as Christ, by him using the gun it tarnished the persona of Smith as I was taught. I asked, and continue to ask what manuals the full story is in because it is my contention that the LDS church did not teach the full story at church from around 1920 or so until 1980.

I hope you can focus enough to try to understand my position, and the argument, before you start to call me a fool. If your going to call someone a fool for what they believe, it would be wise to at the least understand the position of that person before you call them a name. There is an old saying that goes " the boy that can't dance, will say the band can't play." Again I suggest you do a little more study and less typing and try to understand the talking points.

Take care

Mark