Chapel Mormons

[Markk]

Bottomline for you is that any comparison is just wrong, no justification can be found for it. Right?

I agree that I won't ever 'get' that especially since I see the scriptures as full of these kinds of comparisons.

I understand that many see the gap between Creator and created as unbridgeable, a gap that can't be crossed by the creature. I don't accept this as I see the gap being filled by the work of the Lord in order to bring his family fully across to join him at his side, not just standing on the brink to worship eternally the incomprehensible glory.

I am in the process of being brought low by a nasty bug I've been nursing my daughter through the past couple of days. I just don't at this point have the energy to even care about understanding my own point, let alone yours, lol. I think I will withdraw from the conversation therefore as I don't see you getting my point either.

Thank you again for trying though.

Hope all is well with your family, get better. PM me when you feel better?

Mark

John 1:12

[Wiki Wonka]

Then why did JFS, BY and others, including yourself (below),say that salvation can only come by permission of Joseph Smith, or we must pass him?

We have a wiki article on the subject of whether or not Joseph claimed the right to "approve whether or not someone gets into heaven," and another on whether "we must turn to Joseph Smith to gain salvation."

[Pahoran]

Hi cal,

Obadiah hasn't happened yet, and like when God raised up Judges, He will rise up delivers to rule in the Millennial kingdom, they will be preacher of His word, not saviors, nor will people have to pass these men for salvation in any way shape of form.

Then why did JFS, BY and others, including yourself (below),say that salvation can only come by permission of Joseph Smith, or we must pass him?

As the prophet holding the keys of the dispensation we live in, he is the man who we must pass, we must accept as God's hand in this time before we are allowed to enter the presence of the Lord just as those of Jesus' time ultimately would have to accept the role of John the Baptist in opening up the greatest dispensation (imo, though of course all of the dispensations must stand together, remove any of them and God's work would be frustrated so it 's really inappropriate to compare which is most important, they are too intertwined).

Your only proving my point more and more that JS is on a pretty big pedestal to allot of saints?

Take care

Mark

Before anyone goes running after these red herrings, shall we take it as an admission that you are unable to support your accusation re the "suppression" of information about Joseph's pistol, but are just not forthright enough to be explicit about it?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Jeff K.]

Comes down to a question of basic honesty in the discussion now doesn't it?

[wenglund]

I think this topic deserves a theme song

I dont' know about the topic, but regarding a certain party's participation over the last half of this thread, is s there a song about banal hair-splitting?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Markk]

Before anyone goes running after these red herrings, shall we take it as an admission that you are unable to support your accusation re the "suppression" of information about Joseph's pistol, but are just not forthright enough to be explicit about it?

Regards,

Pahoran

I am still waiting for any evidence for my cfr, so far all I have seen is about 13 sources published by the church in 164 years, none for Sunday teaching pre 1980. The balls in your court. I think Wonka was looking.

Mark

[Markk]

We have a wiki article on the subject of whether or not Joseph claimed the right to "approve whether or not someone gets into heaven," and another on whether "we must turn to Joseph Smith to gain salvation."

Hi Wonka,

So does Joseph Smith have to approve salvation, is BY wrong?

President Brigham Young :

[Wiki Wonka]

Hi Wonka,

So does Joseph Smith have to approve salvation, is BY wrong?

President Brigham Young :

[Scott Lloyd]

I love the song "The Seer." Does anyone know where a recording can be obtained?

Volgadon has already indicated it's on the "Nauvoo Brass Bands" album which was published on CD and cassette during the Church's Pioneer Sesquicentennial in 1997. It was performed by the Mormon Youth Chorus and Symphony under the direction of Robert C. Bowden, a group that is now defunct. It is a fine album, arguably Bowden's magnum opus during his long tenure as director, but alas, it was out of print last I checked. It was released by Covenant, which was the MYC&S's recording label. I'm fortunate to have retained my copy. I saw it on the shelf as late as last night.

Church members my age and older might remember that the anthem "The Seer" was included as a choir arrangement in the old (pre-1985) Church hymnal.

Written by Parley P. Pratt, if I recall correctly, the text rightly extols the greatness of Joseph Smith. It does not place him on a par with Christ, though. It is enigmatic to me that so many apostates and other anti-Mormons cannot seem to grasp the fact that a man can be great without being perfect or Christ's equal.

Add-on: Pardon, it was actually written by John Taylor, he who was with Joseph at the time of the martyrdom and who penned what is now D&C 135, which pertains to the martyrdom. The poem and the D&C section are very similar in tone and sentiment.

[Markk]

With respect to salvation, that is only possible through the atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I do, however, understand that LDS use a different definition of "salvation" than evangelical Christians. We distinguish "salvation" from "exaltation."

If I understand the quote correctly, Brigham is saying that there are prophets responsible for each dispensation who will be involved in the process of judgment for those of their respective dispensations, however, any authority that they have to do so is delegated to them by Christ. Note that Brigham said, "I have taught for thirty years, and still teach, that he that believeth in his heart and confesseth with his mouth that Jesus is the Christ and that Joseph Smith is his Prophet to this generation, is of God; and he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fulness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is antichrist." Brigham is clearly placing Christ in a position superior to that of Joseph Smith, and noting that Joseph is only responsible for "this generation." Note that in your quote that Brigham says that Joseph would be involved in this process only for those from this dispensation. This judgment would be related to progress toward exaltation, but in no way affects Christ's gift of salvation.

Hi Wonka,

Your dodging the question, I'll rephrase it, " can any one of the Billions of people that have been born in "this dispensation" enter into the presence of the Father, which in LDS terms is "true salvation" without the consent of Joseph Smith?

If this is true, then isn't it safe to say that he is a god in that BY said he is working and ruling behind the Vail and the spirit world? Also, that he holds the keys to the CK, and if no one can enter without his permission then doesn't this make him equal with Christ in authority of who gets saved?

So again..."does Joseph Smith have to approve salvation, is BY wrong?"

Mark

[Jeff K.]

I am still waiting for any evidence for my cfr, so far all I have seen is about 13 sources published by the church in 164 years, none for Sunday teaching pre 1980. The balls in your court. I think Wonka was looking.

Mark

Mark

You made the assertion. It isn't up to us to back you up. You need to produce some documentation that shows no gun was mentioned. You are the one who has to produce something that proves the point you asserted. It doesn't work the other way around. You should know that.

An ample number of saints, myself included have come forward and stated they were taught in seminary and in other venues the very thing you deny was ever taught. Long before the internet, long before your claims were made.

Stop trying to duck your responsibility. It looks foolish to people here. If you cannot find any documentation that proves your assertion then say so.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Hi Wonka,

Your dodging the question, I'll rephrase it, " can any one of the Billions of people that have been born in "this dispensation" enter into the presence of the Father, which in LDS terms is "true salvation" without the consent of Joseph Smith?

If this is true, then isn't it safe to say that he is a god in that BY said he is working and ruling behind the Vail and the spirit world? Also, that he holds the keys to the CK, and if no one can enter without his permission then doesn't this make him equal with Christ in authority of who gets saved?

So again..."does Joseph Smith have to approve salvation, is BY wrong?"

Mark

I see we have moved forward to another old tired chest nut. Couldn't make the last critisism stick so now you are moving to a new on.

THe naswer is no.

Now can a Jew living in 100 A.D. enter Heaven before being judged by the 12 original apostles?

[Doctor Steuss]

Hi stu,

Just show me that the church actually taught it, I'm easy?

Well, if that

[Wiki Wonka]

Hi Wonka,

Your dodging the question, I'll rephrase it, " can any one of the Billions of people that have been born in "this dispensation" enter into the presence of the Father, which in LDS terms is "true salvation" without the consent of Joseph Smith?

Mark, you will notice that I have been completely civil in my previous discussions with you. I have never accused you of "dodging" anything, nor have I mocked you - I have simply tried to respond to your questions. I do not distinguish between "believers" and "critics" when I converse with someone, and I try to grant everyone an equal amount of respect - until they start mocking me. If you accuse me of "dodging the question" again, any future conversations between the two of us will be over. I actually take time out from an ongoing FAIR project every time I compose a response on this message board, and withdrawing my participation won't be any loss to me.

No, I do not believe that Joseph Smith "approves" our salvation. I believe that he will assist in the judgment of those in this dispensation, and will do so under Christ's direction, just as the 12 apostles will assist in the judgment of those within their dispensation.

No, I don't believe that Brigham Young was wrong, because that is the same point that Brigham was making. He says that Joseph is "operating under the directions of the Son of God." The following is the full context of Brigham's statement from the Journal of Discourses, (emphasis added): Journal of Discourses 7:289-290

Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them

[Calm]

Your only proving my point more and more that JS is on a pretty big pedestal to allot of saints?

You are failing to distinguish between JS the man and JS the prophet. For the most part, LDS do distinguish though there are some that get it confused and assume the mantle of the prophet somehow accords the man some uniquely inhuman superiority and then are disappointed, offended, lose faith, etc. when they discover it isn't so, that the man under the mantle is still as human as he was before it descended though usually it is understandable why God chose a particular individual at a particular time to function as his spokesperson (though I've never been able to figure out why he chose Jonah).

I do not see the respect and reverence given to the office of prophet being inappropriate, the prophet is after all the spokesman for God, the teacher of the Word of God for us on earth. The reverence given to the man appointed by God to do his work is a reflection of the reverence we give to God. We are not substituting the prophet for God. We reverence him solely because he is the messenger from God. In much the same way we reverence the scriptures which are the written words of past prophets given to them by the Spirit.

This reverence is taught over and over again in the Bible. The modern Church is just following the example of the ancient Church.

This still does in no way elevated JS to the level of Christ or the Father or even the Holy Ghost.

PS: I really don't see any reason to continue this conversation privately, I wouldn't say anything different there then I would here.

And there is one big reason not to continue it privately and that is my PM box is quite crowded and I don't feel like editing it out yet to make the necessary room.

Thank you anyway for the offer.

[Calm]

Markk, a question.

Prior to finding out that JS had a gun, etc. when you still had a testimony in the truth claims of the LDS faith, did you personally believe that JS was equal to Christ?

[Pahoran]

I am still waiting for any evidence for my cfr, so far all I have seen is about 13 sources published by the church in 164 years, none for Sunday teaching pre 1980. The balls in your court. I think Wonka was looking.

Mark

IOW, being entirely unable to support your accusation, you now try to shift the burden of proof.

That is to be expected.

Here are two excerpts from the manual I use to teach my Primary class; class being something that you and Primary don't have in common.

Only four men remained in Carthage Jail: the Prophet Joseph Smith; his brother Hyrum; and John Taylor and Willard Richards, two of the Apostles. These four men had two guns that had been given to them by friends who visited them. Elder Taylor and Elder Richards also had walking canes.

And:

The brethren tried to bar the door shut and use their few weapons to drive off the mob. Joseph Smith fired a pistol and John Taylor used his heavy cane to try to knock down the guns of the mob as they were pushed into the room through the door, but there were too many people in the mob for the brethren to defend themselves.

Thus, the accusation of "suppression" is disproved.

All that remains is for you to have the good grace to admit it.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Daniel Peterson]

So lessee . . . The Church teaches about the story of the pistol to elementary school kids and to high school kids and to college kids, but is suppressing the story of the pistol.

Have I got it?

[Pahoran]

So lessee . . . The Church teaches about the story of the pistol to elementary school kids and to high school kids and to college kids, but is suppressing the story of the pistol.

Have I got it?

Pretty close.

But if I'm reading Markk correctly, it seems that the Church teaches about the story of the pistol to elementary school kids and to high school kids and to college kids, but that isn't enough to prove that it's not suppressing the story of the pistol.

A subtle distinction there.

And therefore, since the Church is invariably guilty until proven innocent, the verdict is in.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Hamba Tuhan]

So lessee . . . The Church teaches about the story of the pistol to elementary school kids and to high school kids and to college kids, but is suppressing the story of the pistol.

Have I got it?

Almost.

The nefarious reason for this orchestrated suppression is to prevent Church members from questioning the core doctrine that Joseph Smith is equal in every way with the Saviour Himself.

[Pahoran]

Almost.

The nefarious reason for this orchestrated suppression is to prevent Church members from questioning the core doctrine that Joseph Smith is equal in every way with the Saviour Himself.

Ah yes, the "core doctrine" that is not actually taught anywhere.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Calm]

the core doctrine that Joseph Smith is equal in every way with the Saviour Himself.

I think this is an overstatement of Markk's position. He has claimed the Church teaches JS is "beyond reproach" as well as placing him on a pedestal (which I agreed that this happens by some to a certain extent) and apparently he sees this as elevating JS to Christ's level in some things. His view is apparently (and I hope that he corrects me here if I've taken something the wrong way) any comparison equating JS with Christ is wrong so even if this happened only in one aspect, it would apparently demonstrate the truth claims of the LDS faith is wrong (though the last is my interpretation of the implications of his comments and I may be wrong).

[Markk]

name='Wiki Wonka' date='09 November 2009 - 08:55 AM' timestamp='1257782136' post='1208750272']

Mark, you will notice that I have been completely civil in my previous discussions with you. I have never accused you of "dodging" anything, nor have I mocked you - I have simply tried to respond to your questions. I do not distinguish between "believers" and "critics" when I converse with someone, and I try to grant everyone an equal amount of respect - until they start mocking me. If you accuse me of "dodging the question" again, any future conversations between the two of us will be over. I actually take time out from an ongoing FAIR project every time I compose a response on this message board, and withdrawing my participation won't be any loss to me.

No, I do not believe that Joseph Smith "approves" our salvation. I believe that he will assist in the judgment of those in this dispensation, and will do so under Christ's direction, just as the 12 apostles will assist in the judgment of those within their dispensation.

No, I don't believe that Brigham Young was wrong, because that is the same point that Brigham was making. He says that Joseph is "operating under the directions of the Son of God." The following is the full context of Brigham's statement from the Journal of Discourses, (emphasis added): Journal of Discourses 7:289-290

Hi wonka,

Emails are wooden, so please don't take what I said as an insult or that you were being disingenuous, I apologize if it came across that way. When I say dodged it is because the it is clear that LDS prophets have taught that JS will decide who get into the the presence of God. If no one gets into the CK, as BY and JFS said, and that true salvation to the saint is full exaltation, then it only stands to reason that Smith approves, validates, or allows a persons salvation, no matter who is the author of it. BY and others are clear that no man will enter w/o Joseph's OK.

"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]" (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142).

The day will come

[Markk]

I think this is an overstatement of Markk's position. He has claimed the Church teaches JS is "beyond reproach" as well as placing him on a pedestal (which I agreed that this happens by some to a certain extent) and apparently he sees this as elevating JS to Christ's level in some things. His view is apparently (and I hope that he corrects me here if I've taken something the wrong way) any comparison equating JS with Christ is wrong so even if this happened only in one aspect, it would apparently demonstrate the truth claims of the LDS faith is wrong (though the last is my interpretation of the implications of his comments and I may be wrong).

Hi Cal,

hope your feeling better, this will be short, had a long day my folks are down from Utah. I'll catch up in the next few days. But you more or less hit it on the head. I'm not sure what you mean when you write ...it would apparently demonstrate the truth claims of the LDS faith is wrong (though the last is my interpretation of the implications of his comments and I may be wrong).

Remember that the pistol thing only started my exodus, a major reason for leaving the chuch really has nothing to do with Mormonism at all, but everything to do with understand Grace as taught in the Bible.

Take care

Mark

[Markk]

Markk, a question.

Prior to finding out that JS had a gun, etc. when you still had a testimony in the truth claims of the LDS faith, did you personally believe that JS was equal to Christ?

Good question, I would say no in the very most way, but yes in that I really didn't view Christ as I do now, God in the flesh. So if it makes any sense to you, Joseph and Jesus were not that far apart as I grew older, given that the law of eternal progression kind evens things out. And as I write this maybe that is part of the basic ideology of many saints, being that it's not so much that Joseph is equal to Christ, but that Christ is actually closer to JS and mankind in general, again good question I need to think about it, but I believe it would be subjective to each comparison.

Take care

Mark