Chapel Mormons

[Hamba Tuhan]

I have been very clear of what I believed. Bottom line is that the LDS church teaches that Joseph will help judge[. T]his role of judge will allow him the authority to decide who [will] and who will not enter into the highest estate with the father.

It seems to be a common pattern for the Lord to engage His chosen prophets and apostles as under-judges:

Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:27 - 28).

This promise was made to men such as Peter, who, for example, denied the Saviour three times in one night and also sought to prevent the Crucifixion, and James and John, who argued with each other over who should be greater in the Kingdom of God.

[Markk]

It seems to be a common pattern for the Lord to engage His chosen prophets and apostles as under-judges:

This promise was made to men such as Peter, who, for example, denied the Saviour three times in one night and also sought to prevent the Crucifixion, and James and John, who argued with each other over who should be greater in the Kingdom of God.

Hi Hamba,

Biblically, what does under-judge mean? The Bible says that all believers will judge the world, that doesn't mean that we will decide who gets into heaven, nor will Peter or JS.

This promise was made to men such as Peter, who, for example, denied the Saviour three times in one night and also sought to prevent the Crucifixion, and James and John, who argued with each other over who should be greater in the Kingdom of God.

I'm not sure what this has to do with LDS prophets teaching that Joseph Smith will decide who will enter into the CK?

Mark

[Hamba Tuhan]

Biblically, what does under-judge mean? The Bible says that all believers will judge the world, that doesn't mean that we will decide who gets into heaven, nor will Peter or JS.

Do you think that Peter, chosen by the Lord to inherit his own kingdom and to sit with Him on a throne of judgment,* will somehow disagree with the Saviour's decisions?

I'm not sure what this has to do with LDS prophets teaching that Joseph Smith will decide who will enter into the CK?

Just pointing out that Christ was quite happy to provide thrones and judgment to men who were still, well, men, not demigods, as you claim Joseph Smith is somehow viewed.

*Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.

And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

(Luke 22:28 - 30)

(New Testament | Luke 22:28 - 30)

[Markk]

Do you think that Peter, chosen by the Lord to inherit his own kingdom and to sit with Him on a throne of judgment,* will somehow disagree with the Saviour's decisions?

Just pointing out that Christ was quite happy to provide thrones and judgment to men who were still, well, men, not demigods, as you claim Joseph Smith is somehow viewed.

*Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.

And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

(Luke 22:28 - 30)

(New Testament | Luke 22:28 - 30)

Hi Hamba,

What does this have to do with what the LDS prophet have written about JS. Your just adding to my position that he church elevates Joseph to a very high position, one that is above reproach and one that gives him equal authority with Christ is some "actions", in this case who get to heaven.

Mark

[Hamba Tuhan]

What does this have to do with what the LDS prophet have written about JS. Your just adding to my position that he church elevates Joseph to a very high position, one that is above reproach and one that gives him equal authority with Christ is some "actions", in this case who get to heaven.

No, Mark, I'm pointing out to you that Latter-day Saints view the role of the Prophet Joseph Smith as exactly analogous to the roles played by Peter and his fellow apostles. If you have a problem with Joseph's 'high position,' then you should have the exact same problem with Peter's. Neither man was 'above reproach' or possessed 'equal authority with Christ.' You can continue to insist that there is some kind of difference between these two cases, but in doing so you are creating a caricature of Latter-day Saint doctrine and attitudes which I do not recognise.

[Markk]

No, Mark, I'm pointing out to you that Latter-day Saints view the role of the Prophet Joseph Smith as exactly analogous to the roles played by Peter and his fellow apostles. If you have a problem with Joseph's 'high position,' then you should have the exact same problem with Peter's. Neither man was 'above reproach' or possessed 'equal authority with Christ.' You can continue to insist that there is some kind of difference between these two cases, but in doing so you are creating a caricature of Latter-day Saint doctrine and attitudes which I do not recognise.

Hi Mamba,

Your assuming we view and interprete the bible the same, so where in the the Bible does is say that man will have a say in who and who is not saved. No where does the Bible claim that any apostle or man ( man will judge the world 1 cor) will decide who will and can approach God, in fact the Bible teaches that all of those who have received Christ and are adopted into the body of Christ can go boldly to to the throne of grace with Christ as our mediator, not Joseph. LDS leaders crossed the line when they wrote and taught/teach that JS will decide who and who does not have the right to enter into the presence of God.

If you do not recognize this re-read some of the quotes I gave you, if you need more I will be more than happy to paste more, let me know?

Mark

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Hi Mamba,

Your assuming we view and interprete the bible the same, so where in the the Bible does is say that man will have a say in who and who is not saved. No where does the Bible claim that any apostle or man ( man will judge the world 1 cor) will decide who will and can approach God, in fact the Bible teaches that all of those who have received Christ and are adopted into the body of Christ can go boldly to to the throne of grace with Christ as our mediator, not Joseph. LDS leaders crossed the line when they wrote and taught/teach that JS will decide who and who does not have the right to enter into the presence of God.

If you do not recognize this re-read some of the quotes I gave you, if you need more I will be more than happy to paste more, let me know?

Mark

So when the scriptures tell us that the 12 will judge the 12 tribes of Israel, what does that mean to you? Was Jesus talking about judging a beauty contest. Markk has to try and wiggle out of this one because he knows that the 12 will judge Isreal and is clear. Judge them how, I must ask?

[cinepro]

Hi Mamba,

Your assuming we view and interprete the bible the same, so where in the the Bible does is say that man will have a say in who and who is not saved. No where does the Bible claim that any apostle or man ( man will judge the world 1 cor) will decide who will and can approach God, in fact the Bible teaches that all of those who have received Christ and are adopted into the body of Christ can go boldly to to the throne of grace with Christ as our mediator, not Joseph. LDS leaders crossed the line when they wrote and taught/teach that JS will decide who and who does not have the right to enter into the presence of God.

If you do not recognize this re-read some of the quotes I gave you, if you need more I will be more than happy to paste more, let me know?

Mark

As Mola said, how do you understand the following verses?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 19:28

30 That ye may aeat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones bjudging the twelve tribes of Israel. Luke 22:30

LDS have additional beliefs beyond this as well...

9 And he said unto me: Thou rememberest the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb? Behold they are they who shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, the twelve ministers of thy seed shall be judged of them; for ye are of the house of Israel.

10 And these twelve ministers whom thou beholdest shall judge thy seed. And, behold, they are righteous forever; for because of their faith in the Lamb of God their garments are made white in his blood.

1 Nephi 12

[Markk]

So when the scriptures tell us that the 12 will judge the 12 tribes of Israel, what does that mean to you? Was Jesus talking about judging a beauty contest. Markk has to try and wiggle out of this one because he knows that the 12 will judge Isreal and is clear. Judge them how, I must ask?

Hi Mola,

We don't always know what thing mean, but we can know what they do not mean. You have to use your noggin. God alone will judge man for there salvation, if you believe different your only proving my point in what and how LDS ideology teaches, whether directly or indirectly. also do a word study on the word judge, it can mean different things. I'm also sure you applied this context to John chapter 21(?) and in Matthew 8 (?) sorry don't have my bible with me I'm at lunch, when it talks of what will be bound and loosed in heaven. And of course being in the Millennial rain. Knowing you I'm sure you have done your homework.

Do you believe that JS will have the power and authority to keep a person out of the presence of God? It might help if you actually offer commentary on the statement LDS leaders have made on the topic at hand, or you can continue to tell the choir hoe much I am wrong with out any context or substance, either way I understand.

Take care

Mark

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Hi Mola,

We don't always know what thing mean, but we can know what they do not mean. You have to use your noggin. God alone will judge man for there salvation, if you believe different your only proving my point in what and how LDS ideology teaches, whether directly or indirectly. also do a word study on the word judge, it can mean different things. I'm also sure you applied this context to John chapter 21(?) and in Matthew 8 (?) sorry don't have my bible with me I'm at lunch, when it talks of what will be bound and loosed in heaven. And of course being in the Millennial rain. Knowing you I'm sure you have done your homework.

Do you believe that JS will have the power and authority to keep a person out of the presence of God? It might help if you actually offer commentary on the statement LDS leaders have made on the topic at hand, or you can continue to tell the choir hoe much I am wrong with out any context or substance, either way I understand.

Take care

Mark

SO you can only tell me what it doesn't mean. Awsome.

No. I don't beleive that JS will have any more power to judge me any more than I think that the 12 have power to judge Israel. How is that for an answer. Since you can't or wont give a definition to the 12 belieng judges I cannot answer your question.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Your assuming we view and interprete the bible the same....

Indeed. And you're assuming we view and interpret the quotes you've mined from Latter-day prophets the same.

Let me state this one more time: No Latter-day Saint of whom I'm aware, including the prophets and apostles you've supplied quotes from, believes/d that Joseph Smith has usurped the Saviour's power to determine who does or does not enter the presence of God. For you to insist otherwise is to create a caricature of our beliefs. Unfortunately, I somehow suspect you are quite capable of continuing to make that false assertion for literally dozens of internet pages in the face of endless evidentiary demonstrations to the contrary....

If you look hard enough, Mark, I'm sure you can find real reasons to reject 'Mormonism' instead of manufacturing or repeating dishonest ones. I'm quite happy for people to disagree with me--rather vociferously and passionately and actively if they so choose--but you'll notice that most people don't really like to be told they're wrong for X, Y, and Z reasons when X is demonstrably untrue, Y has been so totally removed from its context as to be unrecognisable, and Z is a bizarre and twisted interpretation of what people really say and/or believe.

Let me give you a quick and totally parallel example of how this all appears to us. Imagine the following conversation between you and a critic:

Critic: You believe God is a bird.

Mark: No, I don't.

Critic: Yes, you do. Your Bible says in Exodus 19:4 that He has lifted people up on his eagle's wings.

Mark: That's just a metaphor.

Critic: And Deuteronomy 32:11-12 says the same thing.

Mark: Seriously, dude, I don't believe God is an eagle.

Critic: Well, you believe He's a bird of some kind then. In Ruth 2:12, it talks about people finding shelter under his wings. Don't you really believe the words of your own Bible???

Mark: The Bible doesn't teach that God is a giant bird.

Critic: David believed that he was. In the Seventeenth Psalm, he said he wanted to hide in the shadow of the Lord's wings.

Mark: David was speaking metaphorically.

Critic: No he wasn't. He didn't use the words like or as anywhere. In fact, David insisted your God has wings in Psalm 36, Psalm 57, Psalm 61, Psalm 63, and Psalm 91, too. I can provide the quotes for you if you want them.

Mark: I don't need the quotes. I'm telling you that David didn't believe God was a giant chicken, and I don't believe that God is a giant chicken. I think I get to be the one to tell you what I believe.

Critic: Well, you don't really know or understand your own Bible then.

Mark: Yes, I do. It's all a metaphor, mate. Isaiah himself said that those who wait upon the Lord will 'mount up with wings of eagles.' That doesn't mean Christians become birds.

Critic: What does that have to do with anything??? You've just ignored all the proof I've given you. The men who wrote the Bible clearly believed that their God was a bird.

And then imagine this conversation going on for 20 or so internet pages.

Does that help?

[LifeOnaPlate]

And then imagine this conversation going on for 20 or so internet pages.

Does that help?

First of all, brilliant work, Hamba. May I blog it? If so, email me your name if you'd like attribution.

As found in the New Testament, Christ also taught Priesthood authority would extend into the "eternity", at least as far as the judgment was concerned:

Then answered Peter and said unto [Jesus], Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:27-28; see also Luke 22:28-30).

When Christ visited the Americas and called twelve disciples, he bestowed similar authority (this account is from Nephi's vision of future Nephite generations):

And [the angel] said unto me: Thou rememberest the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb? Behold they are they who shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, the twelve ministers of thy seed shall be judged of them; for ye are of the house of Israel.

And these twelve ministers whom thou beholdest shall judge thy seed. And, behold, they are righteous forever; for because of their faith in the Lamb of God their garments are made white in his blood (1 Ne. 12:9-10).

In light of these verses, the old Gospel Principles manual says:

The Apostle John taught that

[WalkerW]

Indeed. And you're assuming we view and interpret the quotes you've mined from Latter-day prophets the same.

Let me state this one more time: No Latter-day Saint of whom I'm aware, including the prophets and apostles you've supplied quotes from, believes/d that Joseph Smith has usurped the Saviour's power to determine who does or does not enter the presence of God. For you to insist otherwise is to create a caricature of our beliefs. Unfortunately, I somehow suspect you are quite capable of continuing to make that false assertion for literally dozens of internet pages in the face of endless evidentiary demonstrations to the contrary....

If you look hard enough, Mark, I'm sure you can find real reasons to reject 'Mormonism' instead of manufacturing or repeating dishonest ones. I'm quite happy for people to disagree with me--rather vociferously and passionately and actively if they so choose--but you'll notice that most people don't really like to be told they're wrong for X, Y, and Z reasons when X is demonstrably untrue, Y has been so totally removed from its context as to be unrecognisable, and Z is a bizarre and twisted interpretation of what people really say and/or believe.

Let me give you a quick and totally parallel example of how this all appears to us. Imagine the following conversation between you and a critic:

Critic: You believe God is a bird.

Mark: No, I don't.

Critic: Yes, you do. Your Bible says in Exodus 19:4 that He has lifted people up on his eagle's wings.

Mark: That's just a metaphor.

Critic: And Deuteronomy 32:11-12 says the same thing.

Mark: Seriously, dude, I don't believe God is an eagle.

Critic: Well, you believe He's a bird of some kind then. In Ruth 2:12, it talks about people finding shelter under his wings. Don't you really believe the words of your own Bible???

Mark: The Bible doesn't teach that God is a giant bird.

Critic: David believed that he was. In the Seventeenth Psalm, he said he wanted to hide in the shadow of the Lord's wings.

Mark: David was speaking metaphorically.

Critic: No he wasn't. He didn't use the words like or as anywhere. In fact, David insisted your God has wings in Psalm 36, Psalm 57, Psalm 61, Psalm 63, and Psalm 91, too. I can provide the quotes for you if you want them.

Mark: I don't need the quotes. I'm telling you that David didn't believe God was a giant chicken, and I don't believe that God is a giant chicken. I think I get to be the one to tell you what I believe.

Critic: Well, you don't really know or understand your own Bible then.

Mark: Yes, I do. It's all a metaphor, mate. Isaiah himself said that those who wait upon the Lord will 'mount up with wings of eagles.' That doesn't mean Christians become birds.

Critic: What does that have to do with anything??? You've just ignored all the proof I've given you. The men who wrote the Bible clearly believed that their God was a bird.

And then imagine this conversation going on for 20 or so internet pages.

Does that help?

Spot on

You forgot one thing though: All the Christian churches have been hiding the fact that God is a giant chicken for centuries...

[Daniel Peterson]

My discovery that Christianity teaches that God is a bird was the beginning of my departure from the hen house.

Really. Is this nonsense still going on?

[WalkerW]

My discovery that Christianity teaches that God is a bird was the beginning of my departure from the hen house.

Really. Is this nonsense still going on?

I knew you were a closet atheist! You just stick around for the loads of cash the Church is giving you!

[Markk]

SO you can only tell me what it doesn't mean. Awsome.

No. I don't beleive that JS will have any more power to judge me any more than I think that the 12 have power to judge Israel. How is that for an answer. Since you can't or wont give a definition to the 12 belieng judges I cannot answer your question.

SO you can only tell me what it doesn't mean. Awsome.

No. I don't beleive that JS will have any more power to judge me any more than I think that the 12 have power to judge Israel. How is that for an answer. Since you can't or wont give a definition to the 12 belieng judges I cannot answer your question.

Hi Mola,

The Bible says very clearly that Jesus alone will judge the living and the dead, it was appointed to Jesus to do this by His Father. Scripture is clear on this. The Bible says that all believers will judge the world and angels (1 cor 6):

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

I brought this up, you have ignored it or just didn't read it, by your history most likely the latter. The Bible also says that the 12 will Judge Israel in the Millennial age.

Nowhere in these verses, or in context else where, does it say what and how we will judge, it's a heavy subject and much is written about it. But that said, the Bible is clear that Christ alone will judge salvation, He alone will write names in the Lambs book of life, every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that He is Lord.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6).

Tell me what exactly is the role of these judges and what will be their authority. I have to assume that you believe that these judges will judge others unto salvation, other wise why even go where your going. You can play your silly games or tell me what you believe the role is of...all believers judging the world and angel, and the twelve judging Israel, if not it just continues to show your ill equipped to deal with subjects like this in a rational way.

In review, I don't know what a believers or apostles role will be in judgement, but I do know that it won't be in relation with the salvation of others. Christ's sacrifice is a believers atonement, it is by His Grace we are saved, not by the opinion of other men.

So when your ready to discuss what LDS leaders have taught with statements like:

The Bible teaches..."I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6).

However LDS leaders taught:

"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him; if we enter into our glory, it will be through the authority that he has received" (Gospel Truth, pp. 199, 200).

Along those same lines Brigham Young also taught, "How are you going to get your resurrection? You will get it by the President of the resurrection pertaining to this generation, and that is Joseph Smith Jun. Hear it all ye ends of the earth; if ever you enter into the kingdom of God it is because Joseph Smith let you go there. This will apply to Jews and Gentiles, to the bond, and the free; to friends and foes; no man or woman in this generation will get a resurrection and be crowned, without Joseph Smith saying so. The man who was martyred in Carthage Jail, State of Illinois, holds the keys of life and death to this generation. He is the President of the resurrection in this dispensation, ..." (An unpublished Discourse given October 8, 1854. Also found on page 99 of Eugene E. Campbell's book entitled, "The Essential Brigham Young").

"From the day that the priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up things of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are -- I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent" (Journal of Discourses 7:238. See also Search These Commandments, 1984, pg. 133).

Tell me what these mean Mola, again give me your commentary on the subject at hand, I understand that attacking me is easier, and I understand, but lets try to keep it in context, I didn't write this stuff, LDS leaders did.

Take Care

Mark

[Markk]

Indeed. And you're assuming we view and interpret the quotes you've mined from Latter-day prophets the same.

Let me state this one more time: No Latter-day Saint of whom I'm aware, including the prophets and apostles you've supplied quotes from, believes/d that Joseph Smith has usurped the Saviour's power to determine who does or does not enter the presence of God. For you to insist otherwise is to create a caricature of our beliefs. Unfortunately, I somehow suspect you are quite capable of continuing to make that false assertion for literally dozens of Internet pages in the face of endless evidential demonstrations to the contrary....

If you look hard enough, Mark, I'm sure you can find real reasons to reject 'Mormonism' instead of manufacturing or repeating dishonest ones. I'm quite happy for people to disagree with me--rather vociferously and passionately and actively if they so choose--but you'll notice that most people don't really like to be told they're wrong for X, Y, and Z reasons when X is demonstrably untrue, Y has been so totally removed from its context as to be unrecognisable, and Z is a bizarre and twisted interpretation of what people really say and/or believe.

Let me give you a quick and totally parallel example of how this all appears to us. Imagine the following conversation between you and a critic:

Critic: You believe God is a bird.

Mark: No, I don't.

Critic: Yes, you do. Your Bible says in Exodus 19:4 that He has lifted people up on his eagle's wings.

Mark: That's just a metaphor.

Critic: And Deuteronomy 32:11-12 says the same thing.

Mark: Seriously, dude, I don't believe God is an eagle.

Critic: Well, you believe He's a bird of some kind then. In Ruth 2:12, it talks about people finding shelter under his wings. Don't you really believe the words of your own Bible???

Mark: The Bible doesn't teach that God is a giant bird.

Critic: David believed that he was. In the Seventeenth Psalm, he said he wanted to hide in the shadow of the Lord's wings.

Mark: David was speaking metaphorically.

Critic: No he wasn't. He didn't use the words like or as anywhere. In fact, David insisted your God has wings in Psalm 36, Psalm 57, Psalm 61, Psalm 63, and Psalm 91, too. I can provide the quotes for you if you want them.

Mark: I don't need the quotes. I'm telling you that David didn't believe God was a giant chicken, and I don't believe that God is a giant chicken. I think I get to be the one to tell you what I believe.

Critic: Well, you don't really know or understand your own Bible then.

Mark: Yes, I do. It's all a metaphor, mate. Isaiah himself said that those who wait upon the Lord will 'mount up with wings of eagles.' That doesn't mean Christians become birds.

Critic: What does that have to do with anything??? You've just ignored all the proof I've given you. The men who wrote the Bible clearly believed that their God was a bird.

And then imagine this conversation going on for 20 or so Internet pages.

Does that help?

Let me state this one more time: No Latter-day Saint of whom I'm aware, including the prophets and apostles you've supplied quotes from, believes/d that Joseph Smith has usurped the Saviour's power to determine who does or does not enter the presence of God. For you to insist otherwise is to create a caricature of our beliefs. Unfortunately, I somehow suspect you are quite capable of continuing to make that false assertion for literally dozens of internet pages in the face of endless evidentiary demonstrations to the contrary....

Lets keep this in context which was with a conversation with Cal, my contention is, and has always been that the LDS Church whether by purpose or assimilation has put JS on a pedestal so high that when a person finds out the truth about his persona that it is a testimony bender, or even breakers.

The quotes I gave came from Cal wanting to take the conversation a level higher. So please attempt to keep this in context. Instead of making the issue me, deal with the subject at hand...the quotes by LDS leaders and the false persona of Smith.

If you look hard enough, Mark, I'm sure you can find real reasons to reject 'Mormonism' instead of manufacturing or repeating dishonest ones.

Straw man to avoid the context of the conversation I was having with Cal, again deal with the quotes I have provided and explain your take on them, give it a shot?

Your parallel is just silly and part of your dead man to ignore the context of the conversation and what your leaders have taught, what I find interesting is that Dan has been demoted from choir leader to just one of the choir members...I find that disappointing, he must be getting old.

Maybe I should start a pole asking who should be the next choir leader...my vote would be for...Scotty? ( just having some fun here Dan, I still love ya)

Take Care

Mark

[Jeff K.]

Gentlemen, why do you continue to debate someone who practices such rank dishonesty in his posts? You know it won't matter what you say, he will simply and dishonestly ignore it. It is fairly straightforward what the poster is doing. He doesn't care what you say, he doesn't care what proof you have. He will simply look for a way to deny reality and continue making things up.

[Calm]

Markk, did you ever respond to this post refuting your claim the Church teaches JS is beyond reproach?:

Lesson 7 has a similar example of JS being less than perfect.

[Risingtide]

I only used the MMM as an example-theres a lot of other things, Joseph's wives etc....

Dear Tainted, I understand how learning about LDS history can shock and stun a persons faith. Even when written by faithful members of the Church, it can be challenging to come to grips with. I hope you will find within yourself sufficient patience and humility to endure while looking for answers that satisfy your desire to understand the people and circumstances that make our history.

All the best. Tom

[Daniel Peterson]

what I find interesting is that Dan has been demoted from choir leader to just one of the choir members...I find that disappointing, he must be getting old.

I got tired and bored.

I've attempted conversation with you several times before, and, each time, I've eventually bowed out in weary frustration, vowing never to make that mistake again.

The exercise always reveals itself to be entirely pointless.

[Markk]

I got tired and bored.

I've attempted conversation with you several times before, and, each time, I've eventually bowed out in weary frustration, vowing never to make that mistake again.

The exercise always reveals itself to be entirely pointless.

whoossh, an I thought it was me?

Take care

Mark

[Markk]

Gentlemen, why do you continue to debate someone who practices such rank dishonesty in his posts? You know it won't matter what you say, he will simply and dishonestly ignore it. It is fairly straightforward what the poster is doing. He doesn't care what you say, he doesn't care what proof you have. He will simply look for a way to deny reality and continue making things up.

What have I made up, CFR please.

Mark

[Markk]

Markk, did you ever respond to this post refuting your claim the Church teaches JS is beyond reproach?:

Lesson 7 has a similar example of JS being less than perfect.

How does this prove he is beyond reproach? I'll tell you what make a list of twenty faults and/or mistakes that JS mad or did and lets discuss them...did you look at the JS videio series, is that a realistic view of the man?

Mak

[WalkerW]

What have I made up, CFR please.

Mark

That the Church has hidden information about the gun. That is for starters.

This has been proven false a number of times. If you continue to support this faulty position, it is either because you are a liar/intellectually dishonest or just plain stupid. Take your pick.