Calm Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 All speculation, as is mine...agree?MarkNot exactly since the threat that anyone with JS would be killed was a fact reported by Dan Jones, not speculation as well as there being statements by his friends that they wouldn't leave him (and indeed those who left had to be forced to leave), etc.
Calm Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 M,You appear to really dislike any comparison between JS and Christ.Is your issue with the Church making that comparison or the possible comparison JS made when he made the statement about being a lamb to the slaughter?
Markk Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 M,You appear to really dislike any comparison between JS and Christ.Is your issue with the Church making that comparison or the possible comparison JS made when he made the statement about being a lamb to the slaughter?Neither, it was that I was never taught this, and it got me searching...read my very first post on this thread, it should clear your question up.It would be the church making a "false" comparison between Jesus and Joseph.Mark
Markk Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 Not exactly since the thread that anyone with JS would be killed was a fact reported by Dan Jones, not speculation.Why didn't they kill the other two, they certainly knew they were there?
Calm Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 Get real. Its not as if the mob strolled leisurely up the stairs.And there had already been one 'rehearsal' the night before. They may not have known if this was going to be the real thing until it was too late.
Calm Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 Pure speculation.What is here? Williard Richard's eyewitness account? Or are you suggesting that mob may have taken its own sweet time to head up the stairs?
Markk Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 And there had already been one 'rehearsal' the night before. They may not have known if this was going to be the real thing until it was too late.Maybe, but they probally had a pretty good idea, but again all speculation.
Markk Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 What is here? Williard Richard's eyewitness account? Or are you suggesting that mob may have taken its own sweet time to head up the stairs?Lost me on that one, please clarify "what is here"?
Calm Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 It would be the church making a "false" comparison between Jesus and Joseph.CFR then please. I'd like to see the actual comparison being made so I know what is so disturbing to you about it. There are after all a variety of ways one can compare JS to Christ, starting out with as general as they were both male. I would like to know the specifics of the comparison that you find problematic and that JS having a gun being given to him in the jail by the jailer and him using it to shoot at the mob on the stairs after they have killed Hyrum and were showering the jail with bullets through the door and the opening as well as the window somehow demonstrates this comparison of the Church's is false.
WalkerW Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 I get a kick out of you guys and have fun with it, and I am blown away at the leaps and bounds you will take to preserve zion. Of course you haven't made any leaps or bounds to keep your "argument" about the gun going.
Jeff K. Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 He has no documentation or reference Calimoriah, he has provided none at all so far.
WalkerW Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 I have been attacked by mobs, many many times, I'm a critic at FAIR...Apparently, Markk thinks people blasting him for making idiotic "arguments" is the same as taking on a murderous mob. Sorry, debate and murder are completely different.This is like someone coming up to a grieving parent at the funeral of their child and saying, "I know how you feel. My dog died last week."
Calm Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 How soon before they came up the stairs di Smith know there were 200 men outside?There had been men outside for quite sometime, there had already one fainthearted attack the night before. Does the total number matter or does it only matter that there were enough to surround the jail (that the window was no avenue of escape was made plain by the wounding of JT?The guard had been changed at 4 PM which left the man who had threatened the deaths of all who remained with JS, Worrell, in charge, the attack came about an hour later their ranks having been swelled with the mob from Warsaw at some time.How long does it take men to travel from Warsaw to Carthage? There was a group of the disbanded militia under the leadership of Sharp that had painted their faces that morning and headed to Carthage after their dismissal by Colonel Williams at Warsaw.According to the eyewitness reports, they first heard a scuffle downstairs, a few shots fired and then the mob hit the door at about the same time the four did (since they were unable to fully close the door). Hyrum fell immediately, then Joseph first leaned over him saying "oh dear, brother Hyrum" (and from his look of sorrow that JT reported it would appear he knew that Hyrum was dead) and then stepped to the door to help try and close it by firing off his gun. The gunshots apparently gave pause to the mob for enough time for John Taylor to step away from the door and move toward the window where he was shot, but the gunfire through the door had started up quick enough that a bullet from there got him once he was on the floor so the pause was a few seconds at most.
WalkerW Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 He has no documentation or reference Calimoriah, he has provided none at all so far.Markk didn't know about the gun despite it being in plenty of sources and tries to blame his ignorance on everyone, but himself. We surely can't expect documentation or actual research to be displayed in his posts. That would require him to give up the lazy ways of his past and begin thinking objectively and critically.
Calm Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 Why didn't they kill the other two, they certainly knew they were there?Again, there was a cry started that the Mormons were coming and they fled in fear for their own lives before they had a chance to go back to the jail and locate Richards and Taylor.
Calm Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 Lost me on that one, please clarify "what is here"?What was the "pure speculation" in volgadon's post?
Calm Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 He has no documentation or reference Calimoriah, he has provided none at all so far.Let's focus on this since even Markk claims this is the actual issue.
Calm Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 Apparently, Markk thinks people blasting him for making idiotic "arguments" is the same as taking on a murderous mob. Sorry, debate and murder are completely different.This is like someone coming up to a grieving parent at the funeral of their child and saying, "I know how you feel. My dog died last week."Actually it would be more like "my dog was sick last week".
Calm Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 Let's focus on this since even Markk claims this is the actual issue.add-on...I think we should go to the point of only focusing on this, since it's the Church's comparison, the reasons for what JS did at his death or even what he did are irrelevant unless the Church has used them in the inappropriate comparison that apparently caused the first chink in Markk's faith in the Church when he discovered it was inappropriate.So we need to know what the actual comparison was rather than just a vague statement of usage of "lamb to the slaughter" because there are various ways to use even that one phrase to compare Christ to Joseph (including just comparing their frames of mind in that moment of statement and not what followed later) and some might be appropriate and others not (for example, I would say making a comparison that the ritual sacrifice of a lamb was a 'foretelling' of Joseph as well as Christ would be an inappropriate usage to my mind).To move things along, I would point out the whole quote---
volgadon Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 Pure speculation.Even the eye-witness account?
Calm Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 The reality is that the true and full account of Smith's murder is a thorn in the side of the church in that it deflates the Joseph Smith enigma and persona. The LDS culture has put Joseph on such a pedestal that he has/had become out of reach for negative
Calm Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 Yes I know the story, at least as told in the History of the Church. My point (another one Dan) is that Jesus could had had a legion of angels get Him out of His sacrifice, He stopped Peter, yet I was taught that JS went just as Jesus did to his death, which just is not true.MarkThis is the first mention by Markk of how the comparison to Christ is inappropriate.So he needs to demonstrate that the Church taught that "JS went just as Jesus did to his death" (since this is his whole justification for claiming the Church suppresses the gun info in that they have to as it's 'negative evidence' for JS going "just as Jesus did to his death").I agree that there is some comparison between the two (but there are others who are compared to Christ by church leaders, indeed we are all to compare ourselves to Christ and learn that in which we do good we are following his commandments and thus are like Christ and where we do evil, not). I do not agree that it has ever been officially taught that "JS went just as Jesus to his death.
Calm Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 Even the eye-witness account?There wasn't much else relating to the martyrdom, was there?
wenglund Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 Hi Wade,Don't worry about me, I get a kick out of you guys and have fun with it, and I am blown away at the leaps and bounds you will take to preserve zion. I'll get burned out or get a project going around the house and I'll disappear for a 3 or 4 months. I'm going to start remodeling a bedroom soon so I will be gone for awhile.Take care MarkRemodeling a bedroom sounds like a wonderful and productive enterprise. I wish you well with it. Thanks, -Wade Englund-
Somebodyz Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 CFR then please. I'd like to see the actual comparison being made so I know what is so disturbing to you about it. There are after all a variety of ways one can compare JS to Christ, starting out with as general as they were both male. I would like to know the specifics of the comparison that you find problematic and that JS having a gun being given to him in the jail by the jailer and him using it to shoot at the mob on the stairs after they have killed Hyrum and were showering the jail with bullets through the door and the opening as well as the window somehow demonstrates this comparison of the Church's is false.Good luck with that. He's ignored other CFR's, which I thought was a rule here.
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