Chapel Mormons

[Calm]

Good luck with that. He's ignored other CFR's, which I thought was a rule here.

It is a rule but someone has to report him for mods to step in....which I will in this case as I think the whole effort has been worthless (beyond demonstrating at least to most people that the history of the gun was widely known and widely taught among church membership including under church direction) if we don't come to some sort of understanding of Markk's position and I think he owes both us and himself for all the effort we've (this includes Markk) put into it to try and make the thread of some value.

Markk, even if you feel you've given enough info or that any more info is irrelevant, I hope my seriousness about the CFR I asked for and the time I put into constructing the context that I see as relevant demonstrates that I, at least, have not gotten your point/argument yet (the rationale for it, I understand the claim) and I want to know why it is so important to you and can only do so if you make that additional effort. Sorry to wave the CFR around as it looks like a threat but I am doing so to make my seriousness about my request obvious. It really is that important to me to understand others' beliefs and experiences, this is why I read the board. This is not just about having fun for me, I want to know why you were so upset about it that you believe it put the first crack in your testimony of the LDS faith that led to the rest of the building falling down. That something has that impact seems quite important to me.

If you want to start another thread dealing specifically with the comparison issue (demonstrating that the Church presented the comparison as JS having done just as Christ did in a way you found negated by his use of the gun) to avoid those specific posts getting derailed by dipping into the Church suppressed the gun issue again, it seems like that would be a good idea if you think the issue is complicated enough it will yield as much discussion as the suppression issue. This thread can then stay focused on finding additional resources that mentioned the gun that meet your standard for 'full disclosure' if someone cares to do the work (personally since it's your accusation, I'm thinking you should do the work...at least if you live in Utah and can hit one of the Universities' library and ask a reference librarian for help in tracking such stuff down.) If you think your reasoning is simple enough to warrant only a few posts though, it seems it would be just as well to include it in here.

[Daniel Peterson]

1.

For the record,I don't recall anybody teaching or insisting that Joseph went to his death just like Jesus did.

2.

Back to the actual subject of this thread:

Over at my Malevolent Stalker's compound, the original fantasist behind the simplistic "Internet Mormon"/"Chapel Mormon" dichotomy has now not only outed me as an "Internet Mormon" (who thus, according to his own formulation, belongs to a wholly distinct church and adheres to an entirely different faith than the people I try to serve as a bishop), but declared that I'm out of harmony with God -- in whom he doesn't believe -- because I allegedly disagree with elements of the specific faith that he has entirely rejected. (Cue Twilight Zone music.) My Malevolent Stalker, chiming in, reiterates his assertion that I "hate the Chapel Mormon with a white hot rage," and notes that I haven't expressly denied this (transparently ridiculous) claim.

This is a small but not insignificant specimen of the intellectual and moral mischief fostered by this silly, transparently agenda-driven, even malicious attempt to create division among the Saints.

[Somebodyz]

It is a rule but someone has to report him for mods to step in....which I will in this case ......

Posters here have been more than patient with Markk, he's ignored many questions, some CFR's and many facts that posters have taken the time to post for him.

Your CFR is pertinent to his stand, so worth pursuing.

[Calm]

declared that I'm out of harmony with God

Ah yes, this is what the theorist seemed to take delight in claiming in his earlier postings on the subject. I was thinking that he had retired this from the program to avoid appearing so obviously inflammatory, but I guess it's too much fun to attack devout and faithful LDS this way.

[Markk]

It is a rule but someone has to report him for mods to step in....which I will in this case as I think the whole effort has been worthless (beyond demonstrating at least to most people that the history of the gun was widely known and widely taught among church membership including under church direction) if we don't come to some sort of understanding of Markk's position and I think he owes both us and himself for all the effort we've (this includes Markk) put into it to try and make the thread of some value.

Markk, even if you feel you've given enough info or that any more info is irrelevant, I hope my seriousness about the CFR I asked for and the time I put into constructing the context that I see as relevant demonstrates that I, at least, have not gotten your point/argument yet (the rationale for it, I understand the claim) and I want to know why it is so important to you and can only do so if you make that additional effort. Sorry to wave the CFR around as it looks like a threat but I am doing so to make my seriousness about my request obvious. It really is that important to me to understand others' beliefs and experiences, this is why I read the board. This is not just about having fun for me, I want to know why you were so upset about it that you believe it put the first crack in your testimony of the LDS faith that led to the rest of the building falling down. That something has that impact seems quite important to me.

If you want to start another thread dealing specifically with the comparison issue (demonstrating that the Church presented the comparison as JS having done just as Christ did in a way you found negated by his use of the gun) to avoid those specific posts getting derailed by dipping into the Church suppressed the gun issue again, it seems like that would be a good idea if you think the issue is complicated enough it will yield as much discussion as the suppression issue. This thread can then stay focused on finding additional resources that mentioned the gun that meet your standard for 'full disclosure' if someone cares to do the work (personally since it's your accusation, I'm thinking you should do the work...at least if you live in Utah and can hit one of the Universities' library and ask a reference librarian for help in tracking such stuff down.) If you think your reasoning is simple enough to warrant only a few posts though, it seems it would be just as well to include it in here.

Hi Cal,

I don't have allot of time but I will go into more detail later. Basically what your asking for is a academic argument for a subject upbringing, but I'll bite.

In June 1994 Ensign Below are selected quotes:

"As suggested earlier, the life of Joseph Smith was in some degree patterned after that of his Master, Jesus Christ. That pattern holds true even when extended to its tragic conclusion. Like his Master, Joseph Smith also shed his blood in order that the final testament, the reestablishment of the new covenant, might be in full effect (see Heb. 9:16). Just prior to his death, the Prophet Joseph was reported to have remarked:

[Calm]

"As suggested earlier, the life of Joseph Smith was in some degree patterned after that of his Master, Jesus Christ. .....

"... for, like Jesus, Joseph was also, to some degree at least, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief (see Isa. 53:3). ....

[Markk]

Note my bolds. How do these quotes support your claim that the Church teaches JS died or even lived just as Jesus did?

This appears to be another issue, could you clarify if you think it important please.Excellent. Thank you for putting in the effort and time with this.

Hi Cal

Note my bolds. How do these quotes support your claim that the Church teaches JS died or even lived just as Jesus did?

I never said no such thing Cal, never, what I said is...

"My point (another one Dan) is that Jesus could had had a legion of angels get Him out of His sacrifice, He stopped Peter, yet I was taught that JS went just as Jesus did to his death, which just is not true"

The context here is that Jesus could have killed all who opposed him in a heartbeat, and that I was taught, like Jesus, that JS died in the same manner not defending himself. I never said that the church taught that JS died like Jesus in any other context. Are you trying to say that I believed the church taught that Joseph died on a cross or something?

This appears to be another issue, could you clarify if you think it important please.

Sure, if you have read my posts here you would have read on several of them that I believe that the church, through assimulation, has put Smith on such a high pedestal that his persona is above reproach, this Ensign article is just one of many eveidences I can readly provide.

Also note that after Joseph martyrdom his persona took off as any martyrs would, here is a hymn by JT:

The Seer, Joseph, The Seer

John Taylor

The Seer, Joseph, the Seer!

I'll sing of the Prophet ever dear,

The Prophet ever dear;

His equal cannot be found

By searching the wide world around.

With Gods he soared in the realms of day,

And men he taught the heavenly way,

And men he taught the heavenly way.

The earthly Seer! the heavenly Seer!

I love to dwell on his memory dear;

The chosen of God and the friend of man,

He brought the priesthood back again;

He gazed on the past and the future, too,

And opened, and opened

The heavenly world to view,

And opened, and opened

The heavenly world to view.

Of noble seed, of heavenly birth,

He came to bless the sons of earth,

To bless the sons of earth;

With keys by the Almighty given,

He opened the full rich stores of heaven;

O'er the world that was wrapped in sable night,

Like the sun he spread his golden light,

Like the sun he spread his golden light.

He strove, O how he strove to stay

The stream of crime in its reckless way!

With a mighty hand and a noble aim,

He urged the wayward to reclaim:

'Mid foaming billows of angry strife,

He stood at, he stood at

The helm of the ship of life,

He stood at, he stood at

The helm of the ship of life.

The Saints, the Saints, his only pride!

For them he lived, for them he died;

He lived, for them he died;

Their joys were his, their sorrows too.

He loved the Saints; he loved Nauvoo.

Unchanged in death with a Savior's love,

He pleads their cause in the courts above.

He pleads their cause in the courts above.

The Seer, the Seer! Joseph, the Seer!

O how I love his memory dear!

The just and wise, the pure and free,

A father he was and is to me.

Let fiends now rage, in their dark hour--

No matter, no matter,

He is beyond their power,

No matter, no matter,

He is beyond their power.

He's free! He's free! The Prophet's free!

He is where he will ever be,

Where he will ever be,

Beyond the reach of mobs and strife,

He rests unharmed in endless life.

His home's in the sky; he dwells with the Gods

Far from the furious rage of mobs,

Far from the furious rage of mobs.

He died, he died for those he loved.

He reigns; he reigns in the realms above.

He waits with the just who have gone before

To welcome the Saints to Zion's shore.

Shout, shout, ye Saints! This boon is given;

We'll meet him, we'll meet him

Our martyred Seer, in heaven.

We'll meet him, we'll meet him

Our martyred Seer, in heaven.

(Bold mine)

Also along these lines

George Q. Cannon said of Smith.. "If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him; if we enter into our glory, it will be through the authority that he has received" (Gospel Truth, pp. 199, 200).

"in the June 1994 issue of "Ensign" magazine, Robert L. Millet quoted the Prophet Brigham Young, who stated, "From the day that the priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up things of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are -- I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent" (Journal of Discourses 7:238. See also Search These Commandments, 1984, pg. 133).

JFS wrote there is "no salvation without Joseph Smith." (Doctrine of Salvation 1:189).

Cal, It important that I was raised with this kind of "belief" that JS was above reproach, from my earliest memories I can remember bearing my testimony that " I love my mommy and daddy, I know this is the only true church, and that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God. In th eteachings he was always protrayed as being this bigger than life figure, more or less perfect, his pictures were everywhere and he was always held with extreme reverence, on par or only second to Christ and Heavenly Father.

Hope this helps

Take care

Mark

[LifeOnaPlate]

I love the song "The Seer." Does anyone know where a recording can be obtained?

[Calm]

I never said no such thing Cal, never, what I said is...

"My point (another one Dan) is that Jesus could had had a legion of angels get Him out of His sacrifice, He stopped Peter, yet I was taught that JS went just as Jesus did to his death, which just is not true"

The context here is that Jesus could have killed all who opposed him in a heartbeat, and that I was taught, like Jesus, that JS died in the same manner not defending himself. I never said that the church taught that JS died like Jesus in any other context. Are you trying to say that I believed the church taught that Joseph died on a cross or something?

I did not mean to imply such an extreme case. This is what I assumed you meant, that JS behaved as Christ did in his responses during his final days leading up to and including his death, not that everything done to Christ was done also to JS.

I still do not see how the quotes you provided demonstrate anything but that JS "to a certain degree" behaved like Christ. And I would agree that he did to a certain degree behave like Christ in being willing to give himself up to the authorities for his friends even knowing that death was a high probability, possibly even knowing that death was certain...though it should be noted that it was not the authorities that killed JS as those who killed Christ, but a lawless mob. JS accepting a gun later on and then using it in no way compromised the safety of his friends either in the jail or back in Nauvoo---those he gave himself up for---and indeed may have saved two of his friends' lives. Nor did any other action taken by JS after he made the "lamb to the slaughter" comment.

Sure, if you have read my posts here you would have read on several of them that I believe that the church, through assimulation, has put Smith on such a high pedestal that his persona is above reproach, this Ensign article is just one of many eveidences I can readly provide.

I know you believe this, but quite a few lessons and talks and even scriptures are built around JS making errors and having to live with the consequences, for example one that is discussed quite often...more often in my experience than the "lamb to the slaughter" quote, is the 116 pages where Joseph went against God's wishes and paid for it dearly.

Also note that after Joseph martyrdom his persona took off as any martyrs would, here is a hymn by JT:

I agree that there is much idolizing and praising of JS. I do not see any equating him with Christ however.

JFS wrote there is "no salvation without Joseph Smith." (Doctrine of Salvation 1:189).

And this belief is problematic why?

Cal, It important that I was raised with this kind of "belief" that JS was above reproach

I don't see any evidence of any claim that he was "above reproach" in your quotes. Perhaps you could point to the specific wording you feel does this. Praise, in and of itself, does not mean the individual is never reproached. I get both praise and reproached all the time. They are not mutually exclusive.

from my earliest memories I can remember bearing my testimony that " ..... Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God.

Again, how does this place him "above reproach"? Where is it ever taught in the Church that a true prophet is "above reproach".

In th eteachings he was always protrayed as being this bigger than life figure,

Agreed

more or less perfect

Totally don't agree,

his pictures were everywhere

So were pictures of the temple and of Christ. Don't really see how this demonstrates he was "above reproach" save perhaps in your own personal interpretation of it or perhaps your family's. It certainly didn't get taught in my experience, quite the opposite.

and he was always held with extreme reverence, on par or only second to Christ and Heavenly Father.

"On par" CFR for that one, please. "Second only to Christ and the Father.....add the Holy Ghost to those two and I will agree with you that this often happened, though I'd say Adam and a couple of other prophets were often praised in this was as well for their own particular time. This does not automatically equate to "above reproach" or being "on par".

Hope this helps

It does, thank you for the time you put into it.

I agree that JS is often put on a pedestal, sometimes he deserves it, other times I don't see it the same way those doing the praising do. I do not see any pedestal of JS that comes close to the position that Christ holds, however. There is a huge difference between being above the heads of all other humans (which some people do with JS) and reaching up to the level of heaven as a sinful mortal.

If you have an issue with the praise for JS, you think he doesn't deserve it; well, I won't argue with that as I see that as a matter of opinion. If you see the problem as the Church teaching JS is "on par" or even close to Christ and the Father (and the Holy Ghost though he is often left out as most see him as an agent of God the Son and God the Father and not really as an independent being), then I would take issue with your interpretation and challenge it as faulty and unfortunate if this interpretation is what caused your loss of confidence in the LDS faith.

It appears to me that it boils down to a matter of interpretation. You appear to interpret a significant partial praise so to speak as equivalent to full praise. This is understandable, I have seen it happen in other cases and have even done it myself. But that is a mistake of interpretation by the individual, not a mistake of presentation by the group. It may have even happened with your teachers passing on their personal interpretation, but I have seen no evidence given by you that this was taught specifically by the Church.

And I just don't see anything that speaks to being "on par" with God, though definitely much that points to "close to" at least relatively speaking for a mortal, falllible human.

[Calm]

One example of teaching that JS was NOT "on par" with Christ is in the very first lesson of the Doctrine and Covenants and Church History manual which starts out teaching about Christ.

It refers to D&C 122: http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/122

Through the Atonement, the Savior gained perfect empathy for us in all our sorrows, pains, and afflictions

Explain that during His life and culminating in the Atonement, the Savior suffered in a way that gave Him a perfect understanding of all our pains and afflictions.

Have class members turn to D&C 122. This section is a revelation given to the Prophet Joseph Smith while he was a prisoner in the jail at Liberty, Missouri. Point out that in the first seven verses the Lord speaks of the Prophet Joseph

[volgadon]

I love the song "The Seer." Does anyone know where a recording can be obtained?

The Nauvoo Brass Band Cd.

[volgadon]

I think this topic deserves a theme song

[Calm]

I think this topic deserves a theme song

Sweet man!

[Markk]

I did not mean to imply such an extreme case. This is what I assumed you meant, that JS behaved as Christ did in his responses during his final days leading up to and including his death, not that everything done to Christ was done also to JS.

I still do not see how the quotes you provided demonstrate anything but that JS "to a certain degree" behaved like Christ. And I would agree that he did to a certain degree behave like Christ in being willing to give himself up to the authorities for his friends even knowing that death was a high probability, possibly even knowing that death was certain...though it should be noted that it was not the authorities that killed JS as those who killed Christ, but a lawless mob. JS accepting a gun later on and then using it in no way compromised the safety of his friends either in the jail or back in Nauvoo---those he gave himself up for---and indeed may have saved two of his friends' lives. Nor did any other action taken by JS after he made the "lamb to the slaughter" comment.I know you believe this, but quite a few lessons and talks and even scriptures are built around JS making errors and having to live with the consequences, for example one that is discussed quite often...more often in my experience than the "lamb to the slaughter" quote, is the 116 pages where Joseph went against God's wishes and paid for it dearly.

I agree that there is much idolizing and praising of JS. I do not see any equating him with Christ however.

And this belief is problematic why?

I don't see any evidence of any claim that he was "above reproach" in your quotes. Perhaps you could point to the specific wording you feel does this. Praise, in and of itself, does not mean the individual is never reproached. I get both praise and reproached all the time. They are not mutually exclusive.

Again, how does this place him "above reproach"? Where is it ever taught in the Church that a true prophet is "above reproach". Agreed Totally don't agree, So were pictures of the temple and of Christ. Don't really see how this demonstrates he was "above reproach" save perhaps in your own personal interpretation of it or perhaps your family's. It certainly didn't get taught in my experience, quite the opposite. "On par" CFR for that one, please. "Second only to Christ and the Father.....add the Holy Ghost to those two and I will agree with you that this often happened, though I'd say Adam and a couple of other prophets were often praised in this was as well for their own particular time. This does not automatically equate to "above reproach" or being "on par".It does, thank you for the time you put into it.

I agree that JS is often put on a pedestal, sometimes he deserves it, other times I don't see it the same way those doing the praising do. I do not see any pedestal of JS that comes close to the position that Christ holds, however. There is a huge difference between being above the heads of all other humans (which some people do with JS) and reaching up to the level of heaven as a sinful mortal.

If you have an issue with the praise for JS, you think he doesn't deserve it; well, I won't argue with that as I see that as a matter of opinion. If you see the problem as the Church teaching JS is "on par" or even close to Christ and the Father (and the Holy Ghost though he is often left out as most see him as an agent of God the Son and God the Father and not really as an independent being), then I would take issue with your interpretation and challenge it as faulty and unfortunate if this interpretation is what caused your loss of confidence in the LDS faith.

It appears to me that it boils down to a matter of interpretation. You appear to interpret a significant partial praise so to speak as equivalent to full praise. This is understandable, I have seen it happen in other cases and have even done it myself. But that is a mistake of interpretation by the individual, not a mistake of presentation by the group. It may have even happened with your teachers passing on their personal interpretation, but I have seen no evidence given by you that this was taught specifically by the Church.

And I just don't see anything that speaks to being "on par" with God, though definitely much that points to "close to" at least relatively speaking for a mortal, falllible human.

Hi,

Incredible post, not sure where to start.

I did not mean to imply such an extreme case. This is what I assumed you meant, that JS behaved as Christ did in his responses during his final days leading up to and including his death, not that everything done to Christ was done also to JS

.

Did you read my post, it was very clear that the context was about defending themselves, Christ could have but didn't, Smith had the opportunity and did. Again this is the context, it has to do with his using the pistol.

I still do not see how the quotes you provided demonstrate anything but that JS "to a certain degree" behaved like Christ. And I would agree that he did to a certain degree behave like Christ in being willing to give himself up to the authorities for his friends even knowing that death was a high probability, possibly even knowing that death was certain...though it should be noted that it was not the authorities that killed JS as those who killed Christ, but a lawless mob. JS accepting a gun later on and then using it in no way compromised the safety of his friends either in the jail or back in Nauvoo---those he gave himself up for---and indeed may have saved two of his friends' lives. Nor did any other action taken by JS after he made the "lamb to the slaughter" comment.I know you believe this, but quite a few lessons and talks and even scriptures are built around JS making errors and having to live with the consequences, for example one that is discussed quite often...more often in my experience than the "lamb to the slaughter" quote, is the 116 pages where Joseph went against God's wishes and paid for it dearly.

HuH? Remember the context Cal? I gave an academic argument as you asked, not the subjective experience of what I was taught growing up in the church. It also lends to some here saying that the church hasn't taught as the Ensign article did which is obviously not true.

Not sure what this lends to our discussion but CFR on the 116 pages?

I agree that there is much idolizing and praising of JS. I do not see any equating him with Christ however.

And this belief is problematic why?

LoL, are you kidding me? Saying there is no salvation without Joseph is not equating him with Christ, Biblical CFR on that one Cal.If one can not be saved without Joseph Smith then the world has two saviors, Jesus and Joseph.

JFS wrote... "no salvation without Joseph Smith." ...well there are millions and millions of Christians who believe that salvation is through Christ alone. This has nothing to do with the pistol and what I said in context, but know that you have made it into another argument please provide CFR that JS is necessary for salvation?

I don't see any evidence of any claim that he was "above reproach" in your quotes. Perhaps you could point to the specific wording you feel does this. Praise, in and of itself, does not mean the individual is never reproached. I get both praise and reproached all the time. They are not mutually exclusive.

Your grasping Cal, JS and his persona has grown to a level far and above his "true being", I could say just about anything I wanted about Paul or other biblical persons, but I have to be careful here about what I say about Smith. The context of my statement about being above approach is based on growing up LDS, singing songs about him, seeing the paintings and how he is portrayed, and what I was taught about him generally. see also...

http://www.squidoo.com/joseph-smith-videos see the videos, his image is larger than life.

I agree that JS is often put on a pedestal, sometimes he deserves it, other times I don't see it the same way those doing the praising do. I do not see any pedestal of JS that comes close to the position that Christ holds, however. There is a huge difference between being above the heads of all other humans (which some people do with JS) and reaching up to the level of heaven as a sinful mortal.

Again this is your argument, not mine, but you might want to think about the equating Joseph with salvation thing.

If you have an issue with the praise for JS, you think he doesn't deserve it; well, I won't argue with that as I see that as a matter of opinion. If you see the problem as the Church teaching JS is "on par" or even close to Christ and the Father (and the Holy Ghost though he is often left out as most see him as an agent of God the Son and God the Father and not really as an independent being), then I would take issue with your interpretation and challenge it as faulty and unfortunate if this interpretation is what caused your loss of confidence in the LDS faith.

CFR that the LDS Church teaches, or "most" members believe the HG as not being an independent being?

It appears to me that it boils down to a matter of interpretation. You appear to interpret a significant partial praise so to speak as equivalent to full praise. This is understandable, I have seen it happen in other cases and have even done it myself. But that is a mistake of interpretation by the individual, not a mistake of presentation by the group. It may have even happened with your teachers passing on their personal interpretation, but I have seen no evidence given by you that this was taught specifically by the Church.

HUH? Did you read anything I gave you? I gave you direct quotes, and indirect evidence, snf even admitted that he was necessary for salvation. I don't really know what else I can say?

And I just don't see anything that speaks to being "on par" with God, though definitely much that points to "close to" at least relatively speaking for a mortal, falllible human.

In action and general nature where would he stand in history, was he better than say a GBH, or BY, or a Billy Graham? Jesus said John the Baptist was the greatest man that lived, the Bible teaches that King David was a man after God's heart, where does JS stand with these men?

Always a pleasure

Mark

John 1:12

[tsubotsubo]

I must admit, as a mormon myself, I do see some people deifying the prophets (I guess these would be the most extreme 'chapel mormons'). Like, once, President Ballard came to give a fireside at my Stake, and it seemed like a few people were verging on worshipping him. It was quite creepy if I'm honest.

However, note, this is only a small proportion of members. Most people aren't like that. They are aware that prophets are people, like everybody else, and that they're not perfect, and make mistakes (especially Internet mormons, who get bombarded with mistakes that prophets have made), however, there's a few mormons, who, if told to jump off a cliff by a prophet, would do it without even thinking.

[Markk]

I must admit, as a mormon myself, I do see some people deifying the prophets (I guess these would be the most extreme 'chapel mormons'). Like, once, President Ballard came to give a fireside at my Stake, and it seemed like a few people were verging on worshipping him. It was quite creepy if I'm honest.

However, note, this is only a small proportion of members. Most people aren't like that. They are aware that prophets are people, like everybody else, and that they're not perfect, and make mistakes (especially Internet mormons, who get bombarded with mistakes that prophets have made), however, there's a few mormons, who, if told to jump off a cliff by a prophet, would do it without even thinking.

Hi TS,

There are Christians that also seem to worship their pastor, I'm not talking about those types of people. My point is that the LDS church has elevated Joseph to a position that the very most of the general membership has a false perception of Smiths persona, even if by innocent assimilation. Just look at the Joseph Smith videos, that is just not reality.

Thanks for you take

Take care

Mark

[Jeff K.]

That is false Mark, anyone who knows our doctrine knows that Christ is the center of our church and Joseph Smith is revered as the prophet who opened this dispensation. I would revere any such man, as the Jews revered Abraham and Moses.

You are famous for not providing CFR to your charges. I want to see you live up to that reputation. Care to show us the scriptures or teaching manuals which deify Joseph Smith? How is reverence for Joseph Smith different or unique to reverence for the Pope?

Go ahead let us see you live up to your reputation.

[Calm]

Since the issue is the context of the quotes and if there is equation of JS, I will repost your quotes and say what I see the context as....

Like his Master, Joseph Smith also shed his blood in order that the final testament, the reestablishment of the new covenant, might be in full effect (see Heb. 9:16).

This context is about about his death, shedding of blood. I can see how it can be interpreted to include how he went about shedding it, but I don't see that as essential especially since the commentator adds "to a certain degree" and refrains from making a one to one comparison. Joseph Smith's blood was shed, he could have prevented it at the time he stated he was going like "a lamb to the slaughter" by keeping to the original plan of going west instead of coming back to sacrifice himself for the safety of his people. Instead he put himself in the hands of authority without struggle and was willing to submit to them. It was only when the mob took over, those without authority that he attempted to defend himself and his friends and it is arguable that he knew that the defense would be meaningless for him but might be of value to his friends. Speculation, but as long as it's a possibility I don't think you can definitely say he did not willingly go to his death without taking action against specifically it, the only action that he took was against the death of his friends. Since this was indeed the result of his actions, it makes it a stronger possibility IF one is open to the idea he was a prophet and had seen the result of his actions. Whether he saw those final moments in detail or not is debatable, but he certainly saw some of it as his prophetic observance of Williard Richards' miraculous escape from even a scratch demonstrates.

I don't see a significant difference in the sacrifice issue as blood was shed for both as a lamb's blood was shed, iow someone shed their blood for them against their desire to live. That Christ could have stopped it, even wanted to stop it but did not because he knew the sacrifice he was paying was essential to mankind's spiritual life is what made it the ultimate sacrifice. This does not stop the shedding of blood by others in this context worthless, their sacrifice is their part of their covenant process as demonstrated by the scripture referenced: "Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator."

Just prior to his death, the Prophet Joseph was reported to have remarked:

[Calm]

Answering the CFR on the 116 pages:

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=c5baa41f6cc20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=637e1b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

How many times did Joseph Smith ask the Lord to allow Martin Harris to take the translated pages? What did the Lord tell Joseph the first two times? What did the Lord say the third time?

[Calm]

LoL, are you kidding me? Saying there is no salvation without Joseph is not equating him with Christ, Biblical CFR on that one Cal.If one can not be saved without Joseph Smith then the world has two saviors, Jesus and Joseph.

Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lord

[Calm]

In action and general nature where would he stand in history, was he better than say a GBH, or BY, or a Billy Graham? Jesus said John the Baptist was the greatest man that lived, the Bible teaches that King David was a man after God's heart, where does JS stand with these men?

That would depend on what aspect of JS one was talking about.

As a father, as a friend, as a son, as a business man, as a student, etc. etc. I have no clue how he stands up to others as I don't know how they stood in those areas and I don't know how JS stood.

As the prophet holding the keys of the dispensation we live in, he is the man who we must pass, we must accept as God's hand in this time before we are allowed to enter the presence of the Lord just as those of Jesus' time ultimately would have to accept the role of John the Baptist in opening up the greatest dispensation (imo, though of course all of the dispensations must stand together, remove any of them and God's work would be frustrated so it 's really inappropriate to compare which is most important, they are too intertwined).

[Calm]

I must admit, as a mormon myself, I do see some people deifying the prophets (I guess these would be the most extreme 'chapel mormons'). Like, once, President Ballard came to give a fireside at my Stake, and it seemed like a few people were verging on worshipping him. It was quite creepy if I'm honest.

However, note, this is only a small proportion of members. Most people aren't like that. They are aware that prophets are people, like everybody else, and that they're not perfect, and make mistakes (especially Internet mormons, who get bombarded with mistakes that prophets have made), however, there's a few mormons, who, if told to jump off a cliff by a prophet, would do it without even thinking.

I would agree. I think this happens easier with prophets of the past, but hero worship is not uncommon and unfortunately often has negative effects when the 'hero' is demonstrated to be 'only human'.

Even the scriptures speak about it.

I think one of the biggest problems with hero worship is how it alters our view of reality. Since the hero assumes a front and center role, all is interpreted through how it relates to him and generally is filtered through a lens that removes or displaces to others what detracts while what contributes is exaggerated or attached to the hero. Thus interpretation of actions and information is skewed. When the hero falls and becomes the demon (too often the pedestal is just reversed...not removed, becoming a pit), all those interpretations still hold but only now are seen as lies. Nothing has really changed except the worshipper has changed his perspective to looking down at rather than up.

[Markk]

I don't see a significant difference in the sacrifice issue as blood was shed for both as a lamb's blood was shed

Jesus is called the Lamb of God in that He was the supreme sacrifice for the propitiation of the sins of mankind. It was in direct correlation of the law of Moses and sacrifices that "didn't" work. I can not believe you wrote that. I hope you think that one out a little better.

This demonstrates a knowledge and a willingness that he must shed his blood in order to finalize his work.

Are you kidding me? You are proving my point of this whole thread with thinking like this.

I do not see how this works for your claim however, of equating himself to God or that taking any action of resistance

Read what your writing Cal, I don't need to, your doing it for me.

Since Christ and none of the apostles committed suicide, but only did not remove themselves when they had the opportunity from the power of those that ultimately killed them, I do not see how you can automatically rule out JS as belonging to that group of testators as well even if he acted against the murderers at the time of his

I'm trying to understand this, 1st Judas committed suicide, second you lost me on the rest, please clear that up for me?

How does it equate JS with God?

It equates him to Christ, if you don't get this, in the context of my part of this thread, then I guess you never will. It is perfectly fine to compare JS with Jesus, in any way,to me that is just wrong, although I understand in that I was raised with that attitude and again is kinda of my point here.

Do you see something inherently wrong in pointing out that there are men that had similar experiences to Christ?

CFR, Biblical?

The bottomline however is that all that Joseph Smith did for us only leads us to Christ, it does not lead us past him, it is not a substitute, it is not a claim of equality or independence from Christ and therefore I do not believe any of this demonstrates what you claim.

Before I answer this one, tell me what Joseph Smith did for "us", in context with mans salvation, that Jesus did not do on the cross?

Mark

Mark

[Calm]

It is perfectly fine to compare JS with Jesus, in any way,to me that is just wrong

Bottomline for you is that any comparison is just wrong, no justification can be found for it. Right?

I agree that I won't ever 'get' that especially since I see the scriptures as full of these kinds of comparisons.

I understand that many see the gap between Creator and created as unbridgeable, a gap that can't be crossed by the creature. I don't accept this as I see the gap being filled by the work of the Lord in order to bring his family fully across to join him at his side, not just standing on the brink to worship eternally the incomprehensible glory.

I am in the process of being brought low by a nasty bug I've been nursing my daughter through the past couple of days. I just don't at this point have the energy to even care about understanding my own point, let alone yours, lol. I think I will withdraw from the conversation therefore as I don't see you getting my point either.

Thank you again for trying though.

[Markk]

Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lord