Chapel Mormons

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Hi,

Give me the "many manuals" (teaching) with the dates used, and who it was intended for, humor me?

Mark

Dont have too. You said that it wasn't about the Gun Markk. It has been shown that the inane factoid has no bearing on weather JS was being led like a lamb to the slaughter.

Now you are making it about the gun again and how the church supposedly covers this factoid up. At least try to be consistant.

[Markk]

I guess people like Markk will always vainly be searching for the smoking gun.

The church will implode from the inside, it has already started, how long it takes who knows? There will be a split as it becomes more liberal and academia led verses spirit led.

The first sign is that the leadership does not lead anymore in defining what the church believes on many of the core doctrines, members go to the "pundits and not the prophets" (I like that phrase)for the tough questions which is creating different "ideological opinions or camps", membership and activity growths are declining, and many of the new generation young adults are just going through the motions, pounding Rock Stars and Red Bulls, social drinking on Friday night, and going to church on Sunday. More and more of this is taking place.

As far as the smoking gun, there is an armory if you choose to look.

Mark

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The church will implode from the inside, it has already started, how long it takes who knows?

Mark

Not with people like you it wont. You do a bigger disservice to this suppose "imploding" than anybody I know.IOW you acutally strengthen peoples testimonies more than you damage them.

[Wiki Wonka]

The church will implode from the inside, it has already started, how long it takes who knows? There will be a split as it becomes more liberal and academia led verses spirit led.

The first sign is that the leadership does not lead anymore in defining what the church believes on many of the core doctrines, members go to the "pundits and not the prophets" (I like that phrase)for the tough questions which is creating different "ideological opinions or camps", membership and activity growths are declining, and many of the new generation young adults are just going through the motions, pounding Rock Stars and Red Bulls, social drinking on Friday night, and going to church on Sunday. More and more of this is taking place.

As far as the smoking gun, there is an armory if you choose to look.

Mark

Mark, if you don't mind my asking, in what region of the country do you reside?

[Nofear]

I think it would be a great pinned thread to have a record of "failed prophecies" by apostates going back decades.

[Deborah]

The church will implode from the inside, it has already started, how long it takes who knows? There will be a split as it becomes more liberal and academia led verses spirit led.

???? Wishful thinking; ironic how you talk about being more liberal when others criticize us for being too conservative.

The first sign is that the leadership does not lead anymore in defining what the church believes on many of the core doctrines

???? Too bad you don't listen to General Conference or read the Ensign; all they do is talk about core doctrines. What you are looking for is talk on the "mysteries". D&C 58:26 "For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward."

many of the new generation young adults are just going through the motions

A few maybe but not many. Again wishful thinking on your part.

[Somebodyz]

The church will implode from the inside, it has already started, how long it takes who knows? There will be a split as it becomes more liberal and academia led verses spirit led.

The first sign is that the leadership does not lead anymore in defining what the church believes on many of the core doctrines, members go to the "pundits and not the prophets" (I like that phrase)for the tough questions which is creating different "ideological opinions or camps", membership and activity growths are declining, and many of the new generation young adults are just going through the motions, pounding Rock Stars and Red Bulls, social drinking on Friday night, and going to church on Sunday. More and more of this is taking place.

As far as the smoking gun, there is an armory if you choose to look.

Mark

The church will implode from the inside, it has already started, how long it takes who knows? There will be a split as it becomes more liberal and academia led verses spirit led.

you are so melodramatic. Implode? Really? CFR that this has started or is even happening?

(you ignored my last questions, as you've done to me and others in the past. So i'm calling you on it this time, please don't reply with questions to me, till you've answered my CFR)

The first sign is that the leadership does not lead anymore in defining what the church believes on many of the core doctrines, ",

Really? CFR on 'the leadership does not lead anymore in defining what the church believes on many of the core doctrines,'

members go to the "pundits and not the prophets" (I like that phrase)for the tough questions which is creating different "ideological opinions or camps

All members?

A few members?

Any figures (apart from you imaginings) ?

CFR that 'the members' are doing this and what it's creating?

In your opinion..Which questions are the tough ones and why can't the Prophets answer them?

There have always been different opinions and ideologies among it's members after all we are not .

membership and activity growths are declining, and many of the new generation young adults are just going through the motions, pounding Rock Stars and Red Bulls, social drinking on Friday night, and going to church on Sunday. More and more of this is taking place.

CFR that the new generation are just going through the motions (or are you projecting again)

Come on some figures/facts.

You do realize most members are not American, don't you? So once again you are speaking for a group of people, telling us what they are doing and thinking. Amazing.

[WalkerW]

The church will implode from the inside

I wonder: Where else would something implode if not from the inside?

There will be a split as it becomes more liberal and academia led verses spirit led

Most members I know are eating the academia up.

More and more of this is taking place.

So says the non-member. Just because you did that doesn't mean everyone does.

Though, even if this were true, it is not limited to Mormons:

The Coming Evangelical Collapse by Michael Spencer

The End of Christian America by Robert Meacham

As far as the smoking gun, there is an armory if you choose to look.

Yet, your weapon of choice is the gun at Carthage that the Church hid in plain view. Nice.

[Jeff K.]

No one appreciates puns anymore.

[Calm]

A few maybe but not many. Again wishful thinking on your part.

Perhaps it's just my age based POV, but I see a lot more truly committed youth as demonstrated by those who know the scriptures and even the history much, much better than it was when I was growing up. They don't seem to be treated as 'nerds' either, but respected and admired by their peers and are often the leaders which was definitely not what was going on back in 'my day'.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

No one appreciates puns anymore.

What is a pun?? Lol

J/k not all puns are equal.

I love puns and yours was a great one. Even Walker used it.

[Deborah]

Perhaps it's just my age based POV, but I see a lot more truly committed youth as demonstrated by those who know the scriptures and even the history much, much better than it was when I was growing up.

I agree. When I was teaching SS to the youth I found them very committed and knowledgeable.

[Daniel Peterson]

Give me the "many manuals" (teaching) with the dates used, and who it was intended for, humor me?

How many times would you like those manuals to be identified for you? Twenty times? Thirty? More?

You've already been given names of seminary manuals and names of Institute manuals and names of seminary films, along with the names of numerous other articles and books and presentations and displays. Repeatedly. As in "many times."

It's nothing short of astonishing that you persist with this ridiculous pretense of yours.

Why on earth should anybody waste any further effort citing manuals and books and films and articles and presentations and displays for you? You ignore them and then immediately repeat your absurd claims.

.

[Pahoran]

Here is a quote from somebody that I have really come to admire myself. I think he says anything better than I could ever say 100 percent of the time.

While asking me to be honest, loyal, obedient, and to give time and tithing, church policy is that the only Mormon history told should be a so-called

[LifeOnaPlate]

Yes, heavily ironic to see the wool pulled over her eyes regarding IRR. And at the same time to bemoan the supposed white-washing of history and so forth. Good grief.

[mysteryman]

The church will implode from the inside, it has already started, how long it takes who knows? There will be a split as it becomes more liberal and academia led verses spirit led.

The first sign is that the leadership does not lead anymore in defining what the church believes on many of the core doctrines, members go to the "pundits and not the prophets" (I like that phrase)for the tough questions which is creating different "ideological opinions or camps", membership and activity growths are declining, and many of the new generation young adults are just going through the motions, pounding Rock Stars and Red Bulls, social drinking on Friday night, and going to church on Sunday. More and more of this is taking place.

As far as the smoking gun, there is an armory if you choose to look.

Mark

Mark, as a fellow critic of Mormonism, I beg you, please stop the nonsense. You have been PROVEN wrong on the gun issue several times now, but continue to ask the same question. Now you have reached an all time low in your argument, that the church has started to implode. Please, please, stop the nonsense, you make other critics look bad (not that I am totally innocent of that). Come on! I would love to see all religions implode, but I am intelligent enough to know that neither religion or Mormonism itself is on the brink of implosion. Please stop, before you make anymore ridiculous and absurd statements.

[Markk]

How many times would you like those manuals to be identified for you? Twenty times? Thirty? More?

You've already been given names of seminary manuals and names of Institute manuals and names of seminary films, along with the names of numerous other articles and books and presentations and displays. Repeatedly. As in "many times."

It's nothing short of astonishing that you persist with this ridiculous pretense of yours.

Why on earth should anybody waste any further effort citing manuals and books and films and articles and presentations and displays for you? You ignore them and then immediately repeat your absurd claims.

.

Hi Dan

I'm looking for names of manuals in which it was taught in church, meaning primary,ss,rs,or priesthood... pre Internet Dan, maybe even a conference report. Your claim that this is absurd when the fact remains that this a affected many peoples lives to one degree or another, piling on by you and the Petersonites does not change this. Words like "astonishing" , "ridiculous" only shows the lack of understanding of this subject. Your original point showed your total lack in this by linking 19th century publications that were not available or even known to exist by the average saints from lets say 1930 to 1980. Your argument from that point switch's to your MO of personal attack and a caviler attitude that acts as if there has never been a history of suppression of LDS History, whether by purpose or assimilation.

Your talking points may work with regulars here, as would anything you say, but the reality is they are transparent and silly.

Take Care My Friend

Mark

[Markk]

You really think he was running for cover? In an open window? After you yourself drew attention to how he must have seen the mob outside?

And exactly how would he have defended his friends once the gun was no longer useful? He could have certainly attempted to shield them with his body, but one man trying to cover 2 tends to leave some skin exposed. Plus he would have been familiar enough with guns to know that bullets can go through one body into another so simply throwing oneself in front of the bullet might not suffice for a 'rain of gunfire'.

OTOH, since he was the primary target (and his brother now dead the secondary), it just might have occurred to him to draw fire away from the remaining prisoners, that the mob's bloodlust might be sated with his death and leave off the bloodbath if his call for help (if one assumes he is using the Masonic distress call) failed.

Hi Cal,

You really think he was running for cover? In an open window? After you yourself drew attention to how he must have seen the mob outside?

No I don't, and I never said that, read what I wrote again. This is similar to Mola's post that the church has "published" so many books with the full martyrdom story when the link showed only about 15%+- of the links were actually published by the church. You guys need to read my posts.

And exactly how would he have defended his friends once the gun was no longer useful? He could have certainly attempted to shield them with his body, but one man trying to cover 2 tends to leave some skin exposed. Plus he would have been familiar enough with guns to know that bullets can go through one body into another so simply throwing oneself in front of the bullet might not suffice for a 'rain of gunfire'.

He ran away Cal, if he knew he was going to die as is the context of my response here to Wade, then why not take it like a man rather than running away. So.., why his brother was dead or dying on the floor, his two friend were fighting men with guns with sticks, he ran to the window. I'm not saying that is bad or good, just the way it happened.

OTOH, since he was the primary target (and his brother now dead the secondary), it just might have occurred to him to draw fire away from the remaining prisoners, that the mob's bloodlust might be sated with his death and leave off the bloodbath if his call for help (if one assumes he is using the Masonic distress call) failed.

Maybe, Maybe not, who knows?

Mark

[Jeff K.]

He ran away Cal, if he knew he was going to die as is the context of my response here to Wade, then why not take it like a man rather than running away. So.., why his brother was dead or dying on the floor, his two friend were fighting men with guns with sticks, he ran to the window. I'm not saying that is bad or good, just the way it happened.

"Take it like a man"? Someone had too much testosterone with their Coco Puffs.

[Markk]

"Take it like a man"? Someone had too much testosterone with their Coco Puffs.

Keep it in context of a man that knew he was going to die as Wade wrote?

Mark

[Jeff K.]

Your speculations seem rampant with teenage visions of manhood. To know one is going to die does not mean a suspension of the basic desire to live. There is a difference between martyrdom and suicide no? When Stephen the first martyr was stoned to death, would you have questioned christianity because he avoided some of the stones being thrown at him? I mean seriously, take it like a man? Sheesh.

[Deborah]

Your claim that this is absurd when the fact remains that this a affected many peoples lives to one degree or another,

In all my years in the church this is the first time I've ever heard anyone who had an issue with the gun being hidden from knowledge. So I really doubt that "many" lives were affected.

I suggest you follow mysteryman's suggestion. I think reality has flown the coop.

[Daniel Peterson]

I'm looking for names of manuals in which it was taught in church, meaning primary,ss,rs,or priesthood... pre Internet Dan, maybe even a conference report.

As I've pointed out, I don't have a lot of pre-Internet Sunday School manuals just lying around. You're every bit as capable of doing the research that you demand as I am.

If you want to insist that a subject that was covered in seminary classes and seminary films directed at kids between thirteen and eighteen, and in Institute classes for college kids, and in First Presidency messages, and in Ensign articles, and in Improvement Era articles, and in New Era articles aimed at the youth, and in B.H. Roberts's standard Comprehensive History of the Church, and in the equally official "Documentary" History of the Church, and in thirty editions or so of Joseph Fielding Smith's Essentials of Church History, and in various books by the official historians of the Church, and in a display in the Museum of Church History and Art, and who knows where else, was, for some bizarre and unaccountable reason, desperately concealed from Gospel Doctrine classes before the rise of the Internet (but not after), feel free to try to make your case.

Words like "astonishing" , "ridiculous" only shows the lack of understanding of this subject.

Yep. I'm glad you got the point. I truly do find your persistence in this ridiculous claim completely incomprehensible.

And I'm plainly not alone in that.

Your original point showed your total lack in this by linking 19th century publications that were not available or even known to exist by the average saints from lets say 1930 to 1980.

Perhaps you failed to notice that that list, to which I supplied you a link, covers not only mainstream nineteenth-century LDS publications but, in addition, mainstream publications from the twentieth and twenty-first century, as well. The obvious point of this is that there has never been a time, since right after the martyrdom in 1844, that Joseph Smith's use of a gun in Carthage Jail has been concealed from the membership of the Church:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Martyrdom/Hiding_Joseph%27s_gun

Moreover, participants on this thread have managed, without much effort at all, even to add publications to that list, which never claimed to be exhaustive or complete.

Your argument from that point switch's to your MO of personal attack and a caviler attitude that acts as if there has never been a history of suppression of LDS History, whether by purpose or assimilation.

You can whine all you want about my viciousness, and etc. and so forth, but that won't provide any evidence to support your accusation that the Church has concealed Joseph Smith's use of a pistol at Carthage Jail.

My advice to you is to take a break from lamenting my poor character and, if you're really interested in this topic, to search through conference talks and Church manuals in order to demonstrate your claim that the Church suppressed mention of the pistol in them prior to the rise of the Internet.

Your talking points may work with regulars here, as would anything you say, but the reality is they are transparent and silly.

Actually, the facts that have been presented on this thread appear to have convinced even critics of the Church that your claim is baseless and that your tenacity in continuing to assert it in the teeth of the facts is embarrassing.

I realize, of course, that evidence doesn't interest you, and that you intend to continue to dismiss everything that is offered here as "transparent and silly," but, for the interest of others here who marvel at your obstinacy in clinging to a manifestly ludicrous accusation against the Church, I'm now going to post here a note that a friend sent me late last night on this very issue. I haven't checked, but there may be considerable overlap with the list of materials to which I've already provided you a link. Because of the length of the annotated list provided by my friend, I'll post it in a few installments.

After you've finished reading through the material, feel free, once again, to dismiss everything I've said as "transparent and silly," to declare again that the Church has attempted to hide the fact that Joseph Smith used a pistol at Carthage, and to criticize me yet again for my viciousness.

.

[Daniel Peterson]

Dan,

The list below includes non-LDS as well as anti-LDS, but also many LDS sources, both published and diary. If one includes multiple editions of some of the works (JFS, Essentials in Church History), one is left with no excuse for not having known that the Church was open about this incident (unless, of course, one simply doesn't read church literature).

XXXXXXXXX

1844 George T. M. Davis, of Alton, Illinois, An Authentic Account of the Massacre of Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet, and Hyrum Smith, his brother, together with a Brief History of the Rise and Progress of Mormonism, and all the circumstances which led to their death (St. Louis 1844); 47 pages.

[Daniel Peterson]

1862 Richard F. Burton, The City of the Saints (New York: Harper and Brothers, 1862): Appendix. John Taylor, Witness to the Martyrdom [written in response to request by Elder Wilford Woodruff, in letter dated June 30, 1856. This account in Burton was first publication of the work by John Taylor]: