Chapel Mormons

[Markk]

If I recall correctly, John Taylor has already run to the window and been shot, falling backwards into the room, before Joseph Smith ran to the window and was shot, falling out and down where the majority of the armed mob was assembled.

Does this add anything to the discussion?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Hi Consig,

Hows things going?

Does this add anything to the discussion?

Yes it does. I don't know if you read this part of the thread much, but mine is basically an argument of we don't know what Smith was thinking or why he did what he did in the moment. My argument is 180 to the dogmatic statements that JS was somehow defending his friends, and maybe he was, but I really do doubt it. Your remark about Taylor is valid, and I believe it was he that hid under the bed wasn't it, but I contend that in a situation like that we can never know for sure.

If as others said that he knew they were outside with guns, and he knew it was him alone they wanted, then why didn't he just go down the stairs or go to the window and let them get it over with?

Take care

Mark

John 1:12

[Markk]

Markk,

I have a rather large collection of various church manuals (mainly priesthood manuals, but some gospel doctrine, and CES manuals).

As the massive amount of references to Church publications, resources, materials, exhibits, and so forth, of Joseph Smith having a pistol, and firing it while he and his brother and friends were being ruthlessly gunned down by a mob haven

[Jeff K.]

You are still not being specific. In fact you haven't been specific at all during your posts. Choose the publication and have done with it. I knew about the gun, most here have told they knew about the gun, apparently the Holy Ghost and not church publications have told us about the gun in the 1970's and 1980's.

You seem to be the only clueless one here.

[Markk]

You are still not being specific. In fact you haven't been specific at all during your posts. Choose the publication and have done with it. I knew about the gun, most here have told they knew about the gun, apparently the Holy Ghost and not church publications have told us about the gun in the 1970's and 1980's.

You seem to be the only clueless one here.

You are still not being specific. In fact you haven't been specific at all during your posts. Choose the publication and have done with it.

If I knew what publication it was in Jeff I wouldn't have to ask?

apparently the Holy Ghost and not church publications have told us about the gun in the 1970's and 1980's.

OK

Mark

[Jeff K.]

I knew about the gun, most here have told they knew about the gun,

[volgadon]

Yes it does. I don't know if you read this part of the thread much, but mine is basically an argument of we don't know what Smith was thinking or why he did what he did in the moment. My argument is 180 to the dogmatic statements that JS was somehow defending his friends, and maybe he was, but I really do doubt it. Your remark about Taylor is valid, and I believe it was he that hid under the bed wasn't it, but I contend that in a situation like that we can never know for sure.

If as others said that he knew they were outside with guns, and he knew it was him alone they wanted, then why didn't he just go down the stairs or go to the window and let them get it over with?

Take care

Mark

John 1:12

That is where the bullet was coming from that smashed John Taylor's watch. He was close enough to the bed to roll under it, though I'm not sure how much of a conscious decision that was. Not that it did him much good, he was hit several more times.

So, going from that, and from the first bullet which struck Hyrum (and his watch as well) and that they had seen about 100 people gather outside, Joseph knew that there was no chance of escape through the window.

He did go to the window and let them get it over with.

How was he supposed to go down the stairs with a mob trying to break in through the door?

You've obviously never been attacked by a mob. If Joseph had opened the door, they would have killed him, then killed everyone else in the room. That is what happens when people are in a bloody rage.

The only chance is to draw them away, buy some time. When it was obvious that there was no escape. Joseph did just that.

[volgadon]

If it was just me stu, then I wouldn't be so dogmatic on this, but I have talked to so many dedicated church members who did have a clue, I asked family members, they did have a clue, my Mom and Dad who are as TBM as they come, didn't have a clue.

Because they obviously never bothered to read more about the martyrdom. That is complacency for you, if not lack of interest.

[Markk]

I knew about the gun, most here have told they knew about the gun,

I guess that why this thread is about Chapel Mormons vs Internet Mormons

[Markk]

That is where the bullet was coming from that smashed John Taylor's watch. He was close enough to the bed to roll under it, though I'm not sure how much of a conscious decision that was. Not that it did him much good, he was hit several more times.

So, going from that, and from the first bullet which struck Hyrum (and his watch as well) and that they had seen about 100 people gather outside, Joseph knew that there was no chance of escape through the window.

He did go to the window and let them get it over with.

How was he supposed to go down the stairs with a mob trying to break in through the door?

You've obviously never been attacked by a mob. If Joseph had opened the door, they would have killed him, then killed everyone else in the room. That is what happens when people are in a bloody rage.

The only chance is to draw them away, buy some time. When it was obvious that there was no escape. Joseph did just that.

Hi,

You've obviously never been attacked by a mob.

I have been attacked by mobs, many many times, I'm a critic at FAIR...

If Joseph had opened the door, they would have killed him, then killed everyone else in the room. That is what happens when people are in a bloody rage

One simply can't make this stuff up! If that is true why didn't they kill them after they shot him. There is simply no logic in your argument.

How was he supposed to go down the stairs with a mob trying to break in through the door?

Before they came up, just walk to the window and say..."hey I'm coming down". The context of Wades original response was that JS new he was going to die...remember?

Still laughing by the mob joke

Mark

[volgadon]

I guess that why this thread is about Chapel Mormons vs Internet Mormons

Except that most of us knew about it before the internet.

[Jeff K.]

I guess that why this thread is about Chapel Mormons vs Internet Mormons

Read the thread, that distinction has long since been discredited.

[wenglund]

I believe there comes a point when we may find a person slipping so desparately towards the depths of embarrasing banality that compassion demands that we not inadvertantly speed them on their way over the edge, but allow them at least some excape for retaining a semblance of dignity, even, and especially, if they are unaware of their perilous situation.

Over my long career on discussion boards such as this, I have only encountered two individuals where I feared this to be the case, and I am beginning towonder if we may have come across a third.

So, let me just express a bit of caution as it were.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Calm]

One simply can't make this stuff up! If that is true why didn't they kill them after they shot him. There is simply no logic in your argument.

Bullets were coming through the door strong enough to kill first Hyrum and then wound John Taylor a second time. Opening the door and exposing his body would likely mean that others would be exposed as well and they would likely end up injured worse or dead even if such were incidental. The bullets would most likely increase first at sight of JS before subsiding. I don't believe anyone is claiming either John Taylor or Richards were the targets. That does not mean they were not in mortal danger as demonstrated by Taylor's close call.

And there is always the possiblity that the blood lust would have been at a feverpitch that the other bodies now on the floor (Taylor under the bed, Richards trying to protect him there) would have served to further vent the mob's rage. I agree with vdon above, that is what rage will likely lead to unless something causes the mob to shift its attention (like a new victim or fear).

The mob's attention was first and foremost on JS and when they heard the shouts from those outside, those on the stairs went out to see his body to make sure he was dead and possibly to be part of the apparently intended desecration of the body. They did not return to the cell to finish off Taylor and Richards probably because someone shouted the Mormons were coming (incorrectly) and they scattered in fear.

I see two options for JS going to the window. He had to have been aware of the presence of the mob as some of it (the Carthage Greys) had been surrounding the jail as his assigned protectors for the whole length of his stay IIRC even though one of their leaders had boasted about his plans to kill JS. Dan Jones had sought out Ford IIRC when he was told this by the leader in order to have men who actually would guard the prisoners replacing those who had sworn to murder them. Given the additional number of 200 men and the time of day 4 PM, he certainly would have first heard and then seen or been told by anyone standing by the windown of the numbers of the mob. There is no way he would have thought that all were on the stair attempting to get in, especially after seeing John Taylor falling after he had been shot by the window.

I see the two options as JS attempting to call for help---attempting to do so through the door would have been useless---by using the Masonic distress call or believing that if he was able to get out of the cell, either alive or dead, that would draw the attention from the remaining two that were still alive within, a circumstance that was proven correct.

[Markk]

Except that their attention was first and foremost on JS and when they heard the shouts from those outside, those on the stairs went out to see his body to make sure he was dead and possibly to be part of the apparently intended desecration of the body. They did not return to the cell to finish off Taylor and Richards probably because someone shouted the Mormons were coming (incorrectly) and they scattered in fear.

I thought it was a blood thirsty mob that would have killed everyone?

I see two options for JS going to the window. He had to have been aware of the presence of the mob as some of it (the Carthage Greys) had been surrounding the jail as his assigned protectors for the whole length of his stay IIRC even though one of their leaders had boasted about his plans to kill JS. Dan Jones had sought out Ford IIRC when he was told this by the leader in order to have men who actually would guard the prisoners replacing those who had sworn to murder them. Given the additional number of 200 men and the time of day 4 PM, he certainly would have first heard and then seen or been told by anyone standing by the windown of the numbers of the mob. There is no way he would have thought that all were on the stair attempting to get in, especially after seeing John Taylor falling after he had been shot by the window.

I see the two options as JS attempting to call for help---attempting to do so through the door would have been useless---by using the Masonic distress call or believing that if he was able to get out of the cell, either alive or dead, that would draw the attention from the remaining two that were still alive within, a circumstance that was proven correct.

Is it possible in those few minutes or less he just did what most of us would do...panic?

I agree he would of known that the mob was out there, that's why he had a chance to give himself up to them to same his brother and friend?

Mark

[Calm]

So did Christ turn himself over to the mob or did he require the mob to come to him?

[Markk]

I believe there comes a point when we may find a person slipping so desparately towards the depths of embarrasing banality that compassion demands that we not inadvertantly speed them on their way over the edge, but allow them at least some excape for retaining a semblance of dignity, even, and especially, if they are unaware of their perilous situation.

Over my long career on discussion boards such as this, I have only encountered two individuals where I feared this to be the case, and I am beginning towonder if we may have come across a third.

So, let me just express a bit of caution as it were.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Hi Wade,

Don't worry about me, I get a kick out of you guys and have fun with it, and I am blown away at the leaps and bounds you will take to preserve zion. I'll get burned out or get a project going around the house and I'll disappear for a 3 or 4 months. I'm going to start remodeling a bedroom soon so I will be gone for awhile.

Take care Mark

[Calm]

I thought it was a blood thirsty mob that would have killed everyone?

I don't know if they would have been satisfied with just JS, the point being that if he had opened the door the bullets would just have likely killed his friends as they would him.

Fear for their own lives is likely to turn even a bloodthirsty mob when they think someone with bigger guns is coming their way.

As to turning himself in, he certainly could have done so. However, this would have not had saved Hyrum since he was a target as well (not just JS was under arrest) and one of the leaders of the mob---Frank Worrell--had already stated that all would be killed who remained with JS in a warning to Dan Jones.

[Markk]

So did Christ turn himself over to the mob or did he require the mob to come to him?

Christ, came to earth to die for our sins, by choice, so yes He most definitely turned Himself over to a mob, a very large one.

Mark

[Markk]

I don't know if they would have been satisfied with just JS, the point being that if he had opened the door the bullets would just have likely killed his friends as they would him.

Fear for their own lives is likely to turn even a bloodthirsty mob when they think someone with bigger guns is coming their way.

As to turning himself in, he certainly could have done so. However, this would have not had saved Hyrum since he was a target as well (not just JS was under arrest) and one of the leaders of the mob---Frank Worrell--had already stated that all would be killed who remained with JS in a warning to Dan Jones.

All speculation, as is mine...agree?

Mark

[Deborah]

Christ, came to earth to die for our sins, by choice, so yes He most definitely turned Himself over to a mob, a very large one.

Actually they came to the garden and took him and bound him.

[volgadon]

I have been attacked by mobs, many many times, I'm a critic at FAIR...

Thanks for the laugh, but seriously.

One simply can't make this stuff up! If that is true why didn't they kill them after they shot him. There is simply no logic in your argument.

At this instant the cry was raised. "He's leaped the window!" and the mob on the stairs and in the entry ran out.

I withdrew from the window, thinking it of no use to leap out on a hundred bayonets, then around General Joseph Smith's body.

Not satisfied with this I again reached my head out of the window, and watched some seconds to see if there were any signs of life, regardless of my own, determined to see the end of him I loved. Being fully satisfied that he was dead, with a hundred men near the body and more coming round the corner of the jail, and expecting a return to our room, I rushed towards the prison door, at the head of the stairs, and through the entry from whence the firing had proceeded, to learn if the doors into the prison were open.

When near the entry, Mr. Taylor called out, "Take me." I pressed my way until I found all doors unbarred, returning instantly, caught Mr. Taylor under my arm and rushed by the stairs into the dungeon, or inner prison, stretched him on the floor and covered him with a bed in such a manner as not likely to be perceived, expecting an immediate return of the mob.

I said to Mr. Taylor, "This is a hard case to lay you on the floor, but if your wounds are not fatal, I want you to live to tell the story."

I expected to be shot the next moment, and stood before the door awaiting the onset.

This is from Willard Richards's account.

The mob heard that Joseph was out the window and rushed off to see. Richards took John Taylor and hid him. By the time the mob had returned, most of their ardour had spent itself. If you had any experience with mobs, or even crowd situations, you would see how this was.

Before they came up, just walk to the window and say..."hey I'm coming down".

Get real. Its not as if the mob strolled leisurely up the stairs.

The context of Wades original response was that JS new he was going to die...remember?

But did he know when?

Still laughing by the mob joke

Mark

My wasn't it clever.

[Markk]

Edit, computer issue

[volgadon]

Opening the door and exposing his body would likely mean that others would be exposed as well and they would likely end up injured worse or dead even if such were incidental.

And would have let the mob in.

[Markk]

Thanks for the laugh, but seriously.

At this instant the cry was raised. "He's leaped the window!" and the mob on the stairs and in the entry ran out.

I withdrew from the window, thinking it of no use to leap out on a hundred bayonets, then around General Joseph Smith's body.

Not satisfied with this I again reached my head out of the window, and watched some seconds to see if there were any signs of life, regardless of my own, determined to see the end of him I loved. Being fully satisfied that he was dead, with a hundred men near the body and more coming round the corner of the jail, and expecting a return to our room, I rushed towards the prison door, at the head of the stairs, and through the entry from whence the firing had proceeded, to learn if the doors into the prison were open.

When near the entry, Mr. Taylor called out, "Take me." I pressed my way until I found all doors unbarred, returning instantly, caught Mr. Taylor under my arm and rushed by the stairs into the dungeon, or inner prison, stretched him on the floor and covered him with a bed in such a manner as not likely to be perceived, expecting an immediate return of the mob.

I said to Mr. Taylor, "This is a hard case to lay you on the floor, but if your wounds are not fatal, I want you to live to tell the story."

I expected to be shot the next moment, and stood before the door awaiting the onset.

This is from Willard Richards's account.

The mob heard that Joseph was out the window and rushed off to see. Richards took John Taylor and hid him. By the time the mob had returned, most of their ardour had spent itself. If you had any experience with mobs, or even crowd situations, you would see how this was.

Get real. Its not as if the mob strolled leisurely up the stairs.

But did he know when?

My wasn't it clever.

Pure speculation.

[Markk]

And would have let the mob in.

How soon before they came up the stairs di Smith know there were 200 men outside?