"Nemo the Mormon" Speaking Out (Again)

[california boy]

11 hours ago, smac97 said:

They are not asked to subvert parents.

No.  You are telling falsehoods.  You are bearing false witness.  Missionaries are not instructed to subvert parents.

Thanks,

-Smac

The WHOLE point of missionary work is to get people to abandon their church and join the LDS church.  Missionaries are not required to ask parents of youth permission to present their discussions.  

Show me in the handbook or anywhere else where missionaries are required to notify parents before teaching the youth the discussions.

And QUIT calling me a liar.  Look in the mirror.  You will find a person who can not support his assertion that parents are required to be notified before youth can be taught.

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, california boy said:

The WHOLE point of missionary work is to get people to abandon their church and join the LDS church.  Missionaries are not required to ask parents of youth permission to present their discussions.  

Show me in the handbook or anywhere else where missionaries are required to notify parents before teaching the youth the discussions.

And QUIT calling me a liar.  Look in the mirror.  You will find a person who can not support his assertion that parents are required to be notified before youth can be taught.

It looks like according to the church handbook that Missionaries are not required to get parental consent to teach or speak to minors about the gospel. Of course they must have parental consent to baptize them.

Nowhere are Missionaries instructed to subvert parents. 

Edited Saturday at 06:22 PM by bluebell

[Notatbm]

22 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It looks like according to the church handbook that Missionaries are not required to get parental consent to teach or speak to minors about the gospel. Of course they must have parental consent to baptize them.

Nowhere are Missionaries instructed to subvert parents. 

Missionaries are not instructed to subvert parents authority. BUT by not mandating parent approval prior to discussions the church takes away that parent’s choice as to whether their child receives religious lessons from missionaries. By taking that choice away…. That subverts the parent’s ability to object until they find out the missionaries are trying to convince their kiddo to join their church. 
 

“carefully worded denials”  comes to mind

 

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, Jay 4 Christ said:

It's way more than other religions including Christianity not having a licensed bus driver.

On an individual basis, everyone here on earth that isn't a member of the restored gospel will go to hell. You may not like that wording but it's true according to how Hell is defined on the LDS website. 

In the Mormon spirit world, Christians are assigned to Spirit Prison/Hell after death with all the other religions and atheist. One of the main requirements for entrance into Spirit Paradise is baptism, isn't that true? 

That's why I'm confused about how modern Mormonism views Christianity! Your doctrine teaches that all Christians that are not part of the restored gospel end up in hell, but for some reason while here on earth Mormons want to be considered part of Christianity. 

Can you provide the references you are using?  That would make it easier to have a discussion.  

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

Missionaries are not instructed to subvert parents authority. BUT by not mandating parent approval prior to discussions the church takes away that parent’s choice as to whether their child receives religious lessons from missionaries. By taking that choice away…. That subverts the parent’s ability to object until they find out the missionaries are trying to convince their kiddo to join their church. 
 

“carefully worded denials”  comes to mind

 

Yes, if there was someone who was determined to subvert a parents authority they could probably do it and not technically be breaking any rules, but it wouldn't do them any good  What would be the point?  They couldn't baptize the minors and most leaders would be the kibosh on it as soon as they found out since the handbook also says that parents should know what their children are learning about.

In the past there were missions that did some unethical (and non doctrinal) things with baptism and I'm so glad the church has put a stop to it.  I've never known of a missionary that was teaching minors that didn't go out of their way to involve the parents as much as they could.

[Notatbm]

31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Yes, if there was someone who was determined to subvert a parents authority they could probably do it and not technically be breaking any rules, but it wouldn't do them any good  What would be the point?  They couldn't baptize the minors and most leaders would be the kibosh on it as soon as they found out since the handbook also says that parents should know what their children are learning about.

In the past there were missions that did some unethical (and non doctrinal) things with baptism and I'm so glad the church has put a stop to it.  I've never known of a missionary that was teaching minors that didn't go out of their way to involve the parents as much as they could.

Agreed… just saying the church doesn’t explicitly teach the missionaries NOT to do it except for the baptism part.. 

baseball baptisms were a messy gift that keeps on giving. 

[Calm]

9 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

We just simply see the other bus drivers not having the state issued license

I would say we see the bus drivers as having local and country wide licenses, but not international.  

[Calm]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

Yes, if there was someone who was determined to subvert a parents authority they could probably do it and not technically be breaking any rules, but it wouldn't do them any good  What would be the point?  They couldn't baptize the minors and most leaders would be the kibosh on it as soon as they found out since the handbook also says that parents should know what their children are learning about.

In the past there were missions that did some unethical (and non doctrinal) things with baptism and I'm so glad the church has put a stop to it.  I've never known of a missionary that was teaching minors that didn't go out of their way to involve the parents as much as they could.

In fact, the emphasis has been teaching as families as more likely to  baptized iirc, definitely more likely to stay active if converting as a family.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, webbles said:

A Christian is someone who is trying to follow Christ to the best of their abilities.

Or just someone who believes in Christ and sees themselves as Christian.  There may be some who believe and identify as such, but who aren’t that committed to living his commandments or learning his teachings.  Though perhaps that is them trying to follow to the best of their abilities.  Hard to know since we can’t pry open skulls to see thoughts yet.  

[Calm]

10 hours ago, Jay 4 Christ said:

You may not like that wording but it's true according to how Hell is defined on the LDS website. 

In the Mormon spirit world, Christians are assigned to Spirit Prison/Hell after death with all the other religions and atheist.

We are not that consistent with our language unfortunately.  Sometimes Spirit Prison is labeled as part of Hell, sometimes hell is labeled as part of Spirit Prison.  The latter makes more sense to me given the traditional understanding of hell as a place of suffering.  

Posting yet again to be ignored….

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

Quote

The Apostle Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.

Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell.

The point is people aren’t suffering in Spirit Prison just because of incorrect beliefs.  They are there learning.  

Only the unrepentant suffer for their sins.

PS:  this is the revised manual they interrupted the prophet series for a year or two in RS/PH when it was released.  I trust its precision more than online material that I don’t know the provenance of (I trust the stuff I know has gone through a thorough review, but some stuff has not been introduced when posted, so still official, I just don’t rate it as high on the “approaching Mormon doctrine” scale).

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

Edited Sunday at 12:10 AM by Calm

[Teancum]

On 10/3/2026 at 2:31 AM, smac97 said:

They are not asked to subvert parents.

No.  You are telling falsehoods.  You are bearing false witness.  Missionaries are not instructed to subvert parents.

Thanks,

-Smac

Come on Smac. You know absolutely what @california boyis getting at. He isn't saying that missionaries are told to actively subvert parents authority. I know it has been a heck of a long time, but we always asked new members to refer and make introductions to friends and families and we did not filter based on age. We had opportunities to teach teen age investigators without parental approval/ More often that not it was a boyfriend of some young woman in the ward or branch. Of course parental permission for baptism was required even in 1979. The entire point @california boyis making is Latter-day Saints are quite fine in encouraging people to leave their church to join ours, but we bristle when others attempt to persuade members to leave the church. But I think you knew this really and just want to put on your attorney hat and split hairs. Ands it a double standard for sure,.

[Jay 4 Christ]

On 10/3/2026 at 7:13 PM, Calm said:

The point is people aren’t suffering in Spirit Prison just because of incorrect beliefs.  They are there learning.

I think you're dancing around your church doctrine because it's never easy to say Christians are going to hell but I'll grant your entire argument for the sake of argument.

Let's say there are good people in Spirit Paradise and let's say, according to you, there are good people in prison who aren't being punished for their sins, they're just there to learn.

That makes my question more obvious not less! Why did God put those good people in Hell not Paradise? According to Mormon doctrine God had both destinations available. And according to Mormon doctrine people in Spirit Paradise and Prison continue learning. So why did God separate some good people from other good people? That's your view, correct?

And here's the part you continually seem to want to talk around, the official church definition of Spirit Prison is that it is Hell. Just type Hell LDS into Google and the definition explains that Spirit Prison is Hell, not a subsection. Or, type Spirit Prison LDS into Google and the link will redirect with a link to Hell! 

So why did God send good people to Hell? Why aren't they in Paradise with all the other good people?

Whether some people suffer more than others in Prison/Hell is a completely separate issue. You still have to explain why God chose to send them to Hell over Paradise, there's learning in both.

 

Edited yesterday at 07:35 PM by Jay 4 Christ

[The Nehor]

21 minutes ago, Jay 4 Christ said:

I think you're dancing around your church doctrine because it's never easy to say Christians are going to hell but I'll grant your entire argument for the sake of argument.

Let's say there are good people in Spirit Paradise and let's say, according to you, there are good people in prison who aren't being punished for their sins, they're just there to learn.

That makes my question more obvious not less! Why did God put those good people in Hell not Paradise? According to Mormon doctrine God had both destinations available. And according to Mormon doctrine people in Spirit Paradise and Prison continue learning. So why did God separate some good people from other good people? That's your view, correct?

And here's the part you continually seem to want to talk around, the official church definition of Spirit Prison is that it is Hell. Just type Hell LDS into Google and the definition explains that Spirit Prison is Hell, not a subsection. Or, type Spirit Prison LDS into Google and the link will redirect with a link to Hell! 

So why did God send good people to Hell? Why aren't they in Paradise with all the other good people?

Whether some people suffer more than others in Prison/Hell is a completely separate issue. You still have to explain why God chose to send them to Hell over Paradise, there's learning in both.

 

The same reason that Christians in general think ‘good’ people go to hell. They were wrong. Also add in not having performed certain ordinances or sacraments or whatever depending on the branch of Christianity in general.

A better question is why does God have a hell at all?

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Come on Smac. You know absolutely what @california boyis getting at. He isn't saying that missionaries are told to actively subvert parents authority.

Actually, I specifically asked him whether his missionary efforts "were framed to {him} as encouraging newly-baptized members to subvert their parents' efforts to raise their minor children relative to religious instruction," and he said "YES."  

If all he is saying is that Latter-day Saint missionaries sometimes give lessons to minors without first obtaining express consent from their parents, I will acknowledge that openly.  It's the subversion stuff that I found problematic.

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

I know it has been a heck of a long time, but we always asked new members to refer and make introductions to friends and families and we did not filter based on age. We had opportunities to teach teen age investigators without parental approval/ More often that not it was a boyfriend of some young woman in the ward or branch. Of course parental permission for baptism was required even in 1979. The entire point @california boyis making is Latter-day Saints are quite fine in encouraging people to leave their church to join ours, but we bristle when others attempt to persuade members to leave the church. But I think you knew this really and just want to put on your attorney hat and split hairs. Ands it a double standard for sure,.

I'll take what you have said here into consideration.

Thanks,

-Smac

[california boy]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

Actually, I specifically asked him whether his missionary efforts "were framed to {him} as encouraging newly-baptized members to subvert their parents' efforts to raise their minor children relative to religious instruction," and he said "YES."  

If all he is saying is that Latter-day Saint missionaries sometimes give lessons to minors without first obtaining express consent from their parents, I will acknowledge that openly.  It's the subversion stuff that I found problematic.

I'll take what you have said here into consideration.

Thanks,

-Smac

You accused the minor who was talking with his siblings about why he was leaving the church and encouraging them to also leave the church as subverting their parents efforts to raise their minor children relative to religious instruction.

Missionaries do the exact same thing: talking to minors about why they should leave their church behind the parents back, not asking parental permission.  The goal being to convince them to also leave their church and join the LDS religion.  If it is subversive to the first example, it is also subversive when missionaries do the exact same thing.  

So YES, using your own criteria.

The fact that you seem to be completely clueless  that the similarities have little daylight between them tells me you are completely blinded by your own religious point of view.  

 

[manol]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

A better question is why does God have a hell at all?

I think religion has it wrong. 

Based on NDE accounts as well as the Book of Mormon account of Alma the Younger, I think the purpose of a hellish experience is simply to change a soul's trajectory. 

Here's one such experience; compare with Alma Chapter 36 if the topic interests you (and skip ahead to 22:57 if you're open to a non-religious take on "what we're here for"):  

I Went to Hell. It Was the Best Thing That Ever Happened (NDE) - YouTube

Edited 18 hours ago by manol

[Devobah]

1 hour ago, manol said:

I think religion has it wrong. 

Based on NDE accounts as well as the Book of Mormon account of Alma the Younger, I think the purpose of a hellish experience is simply to change a soul's trajectory. 

Here's one such experience; compare with Alma Chapter 36 if the topic interests you (and skip ahead to 22:57 if you're open to a non-religious take on "what we're here for"):  

I Went to Hell. It Was the Best Thing That Ever Happened (NDE) - YouTube

Would you happen to be familiar with the YouTube Channel “Mormon Convert”? He has a lot of videos on NDEs and how they overlap with Latter-day Saint beliefs and doctrines. Might be one to check out if you don’t know it. I found it fascinating but I don’t really take too much stock in it. 

[teddyaware]

12 hours ago, manol said:

I think religion has it wrong. 

Based on NDE accounts as well as the Book of Mormon account of Alma the Younger, I think the purpose of a hellish experience is simply to change a soul's trajectory. 

Here's one such experience; compare with Alma Chapter 36 if the topic interests you (and skip ahead to 22:57 if you're open to a non-religious take on "what we're here for"):  

I Went to Hell. It Was the Best Thing That Ever Happened (NDE) - YouTube

Doctrine and Covenants 76 describes the “hellish experience” that the wicked will experience after death as “the Wine-Press of the Fierceness of the Wrath of Almighty God.” Section 76 goes on to testify that the rebellious spirits who suffer for their sins while within this spiritual wine-press of divine wrath will eventually be humbled, rendered contrite and subdued unto Christ, and as a consequence will be made fit subjects to receive salvation and a mansion of glory in the telestial kingdom of heaven. But before their salvation can be consummated these formerly rebellious souls will publicly bow the knee before God the Father on the day of judgement and gratefully confess unto him that Jesus is the Christ, the Savior of their souls. By this, we can see that the scriptures are true when they declare that there can be no salvation without living faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of God, until the fullness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

 

Edited 6 hours ago by teddyaware

[Teancum]

18 hours ago, smac97 said:

Actually, I specifically asked him whether his missionary efforts "were framed to {him} as encouraging newly-baptized members to subvert their parents' efforts to raise their minor children relative to religious instruction," and he said "YES."  

If all he is saying is that Latter-day Saint missionaries sometimes give lessons to minors without first obtaining express consent from their parents, I will acknowledge that openly.  It's the subversion stuff that I found problematic.

I'll take what you have said here into consideration.

Thanks,

-Smac

Fair enough.😁

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Doctrine and Covenants 76 describes the “hellish experience” that the wicked will experience after death as “the Wine-Press of the Fierceness of the Wrath of Almighty God.” Section 76 goes on to testify that the rebellious spirits who suffer for their sins while within this spiritual wine-press of divine wrath will eventually be humbled, rendered contrite and subdued unto Christ, and as a consequence will be made fit subjects to receive salvation and a mansion of glory in the telestial kingdom of heaven. But before their salvation can be consummated these formerly rebellious souls will publicly bow the knee before God the Father on the day of judgement and gratefully confess unto him that Jesus is the Christ, the Savior of their souls. By this, we can see that the scriptures are true when they declare that  there can be no salvation without living faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of God, until the fullness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

 

The abuse metaphors write themselves. One day the wrath of God will abate but only after God torments them until they break and are rendered malleable and subservient. They ate dealt a heavy blow by the hand of God and eventually rush to His knees to apologize for somehow forcing God to do this to them and promise to never do anything to make God lose His temper ever again.

[manol]

11 hours ago, Devobah said:

Would you happen to be familiar with the YouTube Channel “Mormon Convert”? He has a lot of videos on NDEs and how they overlap with Latter-day Saint beliefs and doctrines. Might be one to check out if you don’t know it.

I'm not familiar with that channel, but if that's his opinion then I share it.  Multiple researchers have noted that the beliefs of the LDS Church seem to be more compatible with the reports given by near-death experiencers than the beliefs of other religions, though of course differences can be found.  My recollection is that Raymond Moody mentions this in his first book, or was it Melvin Morse?  It's been a while and my memory is a bit foggy.

 

11 hours ago, Devobah said:

I found it fascinating but I don’t really take too much stock in it. 

In my opinion authentic near-death experience accounts are part of that which "God does now reveal".  Imo they are, among other things, an opportunity to recognize truth when it shows up without someone in a position of ecclesiastical authority having put a stamp of approval on it.  Imo they are an opportunity to see if we can apply Alma Chapter 32 to teachings that may be new to us.  They may even be "new wine" that our old bottles, or old paradigms, cannot contain, causing us to grow. 

 

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Doctrine and Covenants 76 describes the “hellish experience” that the wicked will experience after death as “the Wine-Press of the Fierceness of the Wrath of Almighty God.” Section 76 goes on to testify that the rebellious spirits who suffer for their sins while within this spiritual wine-press of divine wrath will eventually be humbled, rendered contrite and subdued unto Christ, and as a consequence will be made fit subjects to receive salvation and a mansion of glory in the telestial kingdom of heaven. But before their salvation can be consummated these formerly rebellious souls will publicly bow the knee before God the Father on the day of judgement and gratefully confess unto him that Jesus is the Christ, the Savior of their souls. By this, we can see that the scriptures are true when they declare that  there can be no salvation without living faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

One of the ideas people who've had NDEs sometimes come back with is imo quite similar to the responsibility for one's choices taught in the LDS Church and in Section 76 in particular.  It goes something like this:  We don't get to bring our litany of excuses with us to the other side.  Over there, we see with a clarity that our excuses cannot survive.  So I think the "subduing" you mention is a free-will choice, there being no need whatsoever for coercion.  Quoting an NDEer on the subject:

"In my life review, there was one thing that was unmistakable and it may surprise you. There were no excuses. Not one. Not for anything.

"But it wasn't “judgement” that I felt during the life review. It was something else. It was unconditional love, but it was also truth. And the truth is, simply, that during the existence that had led to that review, all of the excuses created and used in that life were meaningless. They never mattered.

"Not a single reason I had ever rationalized for how I treated someone, any excuse for how I may have withheld love, the intellect’s logic for how and why I deservedly reacted to something, judged someone, none of it was there. Zero."

Link:  https://www.jonathanashford.com/post/the-excuse

Edited 5 hours ago by manol

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Doctrine and Covenants 76 describes the “hellish experience” that the wicked will experience after death as “the Wine-Press of the Fierceness of the Wrath of Almighty God.” Section 76 goes on to testify that the rebellious spirits who suffer for their sins while within this spiritual wine-press of divine wrath will eventually be humbled, rendered contrite and subdued unto Christ, and as a consequence will be made fit subjects to receive salvation and a mansion of glory in the telestial kingdom of heaven. But before their salvation can be consummated these formerly rebellious souls will publicly bow the knee before God the Father on the day of judgement and gratefully confess unto him that Jesus is the Christ, the Savior of their souls. By this, we can see that the scriptures are true when they declare that  there can be no salvation without living faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of God, until the fullness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

 

It is a good thing that the idea of hell is a myth, and has no basis in reality. I recommend everyone ignore any threat of an after life of punishment for not following someone else's imagined rules. It is all myth and you treat every other mythical religion that way. You don't worship Zeus or Odin. Just take it one step further.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

It is a good thing that the idea of hell is a myth, and has no basis in reality. I recommend everyone ignore any threat of an after life of punishment for not following someone else's imagined rules. It is all myth and you treat every other mythical religion that way. You don't worship Zeus or Odin. Just take it one step further.

The general scholarly consensus is that the early Christians didn’t have hell (eternal conscious torment) for a long while. Then the lurid revenge fantasy that is the Book of Revelation snuck its way into the canon and here we are.

[Teancum]

51 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The general scholarly consensus is that the early Christians didn’t have hell (eternal conscious torment) for a long while. Then the lurid revenge fantasy that is the Book of Revelation snuck its way into the canon and here we are.

Yet the Book of Revelation is not about the end times. But rather is addresses Rome under the rule of Nero. At least according to Bart Ehrman and other NT scholars.

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Yet the Book of Revelation is not about the end times. But rather is addresses Rome under the rule of Nero. At least according to Bart Ehrman and other NT scholars.

I agree with the scholars. That doesn’t mean it is not about the end times. It is just that the writer of Revelation thought the end times were going to hit very very soon.