Jay 4 Christ

I think you're dancing around your church doctrine because it's never easy to say Christians are going to hell but I'll grant your entire argument for the sake of argument. Let's say there are good people in Spirit Paradise and let's say, according to you, there are good people in prison who aren't being punished for their sins, they're just there to learn. That makes my question more obvious not less! Why did God put those good people in Hell not Paradise? According to Mormon doctrine God had both destinations available. And according to Mormon doctrine people in Spirit Paradise and Prison continue learning. So why did God separate some good people from other good people? That's your view, correct? And here's the part you continually seem to want to talk around, the official church definition of Spirit Prison is that it is Hell. Just type Hell LDS into Google and the definition explains that Spirit Prison is Hell, not a subsection. Or, type Spirit Prison LDS into Google and the link will redirect with a link to Hell! So why did God send good people to Hell? Why aren't they in Paradise with all the other good people? Whether some people suffer more than others in Prison/Hell is a completely separate issue. You still have to explain why God chose to send them to Hell over Paradise, there's learning in both.

Did you view the link I posted above? It states that the church no longer existed on earth and it became a church of men. You can't say out one side of your mouth that you're Christians while out the other side you're saying Christ church was removed from the earth and only a church of men was left. Wouldn't it be more accurate to state that Mormons believe they are THE Christians and everyone else is a church of men like the link above spells out? I would respect Mormonism if that's the claim.

It's way more than other religions including Christianity not having a licensed bus driver. On an individual basis, everyone here on earth that isn't a member of the restored gospel will go to hell. You may not like that wording but it's true according to how Hell is defined on the LDS website. In the Mormon spirit world, Christians are assigned to Spirit Prison/Hell after death with all the other religions and atheist. One of the main requirements for entrance into Spirit Paradise is baptism, isn't that true? That's why I'm confused about how modern Mormonism views Christianity! Your doctrine teaches that all Christians that are not part of the restored gospel end up in hell, but for some reason while here on earth Mormons want to be considered part of Christianity.

Let's simplify this discussion, shall we? For this analogy let's say each major religion on earth is a school bus. According to Mormon doctrine, the only school bus that is operational and on the road is Mormonism, all the other school buses including Christianity is in a junkyard for broken down school buses. The Mormon school bus has a powerful engine that allows it to be driven down the road by a bus driver with the proper authority to do so. This bus driver can swing out the little red stop sign because he's been given the authority to do so. It's a beautiful yellow bus with everything operating as it should. Lights are bright, windows go up and down, door opens and closes properly, all because the Mormon bus has been well maintained. There are other buses in town but they're all found in the local junkyard. These buses are ugly the paint is missing, rust is eating away at the metal, tires and rims have been stolen, windows are busted out, seats torn, and rats are living inside them. The red stop sign on the side of the buses in the junkyard have been removed and none of the school buses can move under their own power because the engines that moves the buses in the junkyard have been removed. It's a miserable looking junkyard with school buses that are hardly recognizable. And in the middle of these buses is the Christian bus, which is surrounded by the Jewish bus, the Islam bus, the atheist bus, the Buddhist bus, and multiple other buses. This simple analogy is how Mormonism views Christianity! I'm sure you will disagree so please answer this question. If my analogy is wrong, then why are Christians NOT allowed in Spirit Paradise without first being baptized into the restored gospel?

Sorry here's the link. Chapter 16: The Church of Jesus Christ in Former Times https://share.google/crr086laJhZPiZdLP

Your own manuals teach that because of wickedness and apostasy, authority and priesthood keys were removed from the earth. The link below spells it out, says the organization that Jesus established here on earth no longer existed after his death and confusion resulted. Error crept into church doctrine and soon dissolution of the church was complete. It goes on to explain that the period of time that the church NO LONGER EXISTED on earth is called the great apostasy. It goes on to explain pagan beliefs dominated the thinking of those called Christians. Explains that the Roman emperor adopted FALSE CHRISTIANITY. Then says that the church the emperor adopted was very different from the church Christ organized. Finally, if you read the link to the end, the article explains that traditional Christianity was the church of Christ NO LONGER; it became a church of men. Why are you trying to say Christianity has two distinct histories?

Mormon doctrine separates Christians from Mormons. It seems you want to have two separate Christian histories. On one hand you want to claim nearly 2000 years of Christianity as part of your own Christian history. But on the other hand you want to claim Christ's church was removed from the earth and then had to be restored. That claim is two distinct and separate histories. One here on earth and one somewhere else, wherever the priesthood was taken back to. Restoration means according to Mormon doctrine, necessary power and authority were removed from earth. That means Christianity was removed from the earth according to Mormon doctrine. Let's remember, the gospel you follow is taught on other planets, so God apparently has the ability to remove the "true" gospel from a planet whenever he seems it necessary. If that's true, then traditional Christianity isn't part of your gospel. Your gospel was removed from the earth apparently to protect it? So my question is, during the 1800 year apostasy, was Christ's authorized church here on earth? If not, was his authorized gospel being taught on other earths during the 1800 year apostasy? Because if Christ gospel is taught on other earths and Christ has the authority to remove his gospel from an earth as Mormon doctrine teaches, then Christianity wasn't on earth during the 1800 years Catholicism and Protestantism was established.

Faith and charity are not enough for entrance into the Spirit Paradise. Faith and charity alone is a path to Spirit Prison/Hell. We discussed to his a few weeks ago and with all my studying I haven't found any doctrine that says Spirit Prison has a "subsection" I think you called it, that is considered to be hell. Everything I find says Spirit Prison is hell.

There's an irony here you're overlooking. You say it's understandable that Mormons wouldn't like a family member actively and regularly speaking against the church. I guess that's fair. But then surely you can understand why Christians don't appreciate Mormons actively telling them that their church lacks priesthood authority Christ intended his church to have. Mormon missionaries literally knock on Christian's doors with a message that says Christianity is missing everything that is essential for a Christian church. Should you apply your reasoning in both directions?

The founding claim of the first in vision is the ONLY living and TRUE church. That's an exclusive claim. If Mormonism is the only true and living church, then every other church is, by definition, not living.

LDS would not typically say hell is a subsection of Spirit Prison. Spirit Prison is hell. One of two hells. It's an actual place and a state of mind while in hell.

Lots of studying over the past few months. What I've learned is Mormon doctrine teaches traditional Christianity receives nothing from God. Interestingly, all non Mormon Christians go to hell to await being taught the true gospel in Hell/Spirit Prison.

I agree! I respect your answer. If Mormonism really believes that the priesthood, authority, ordinances and fullness of the Christian gospel isn't found within Christianity then just plainly say that like you are. I think more traditional Christians would respect Mormonism. I respect someone who's willing to own their beliefs, even if I disagree.

I appreciate the honesty!

Imagine there's a hospital that's been attempting to serve people for 2000 years without doctors, nurses, it's authority to perform surgeries. It's been robbed of all its crucial equipment, it's operating rooms, the pharmacy is shut down and it's ability to perform the very procedures that save lives. What's left? The building is standing, there's a few chairs and a few hospital beds and people sincerely come there looking for help but there's nothing in the building that can save them anymore. In my opinion that's how Mormons view Christianity. If I'm mistaken please tell me what you believe Christianity still has to offer people?

I think you actually just proved the point I've been trying to make. You're not arguing Mormonism is one branch of Christianity, you're saying the Christianity that has existed for 2,000 years has lost everything that originally made it Christianity including priesthood, authority, ordinances and the fullness of the gospel. So essentially everything that matters. So what does that leave? I guess in your opinion it leaves Mormonism as the only religion that actually has what he gave his original church. That's why I keep saying I don't understand why Mormons spend so much time saying "we're Christians too." Here's a short list of what I can remember Mormon theology saying Christianity has lost. Priesthood authority. Valid baptism. Saving ordinances. Fullness of gospel. Complete organization of Christ Church. Sealing power. Living prophets. And whatever Christianity still has Mormonism says it isn't meaningful enough to accomplish what ultimately matters most.

I think we're getting lost in definitions and overlookng the actual real issue. Let's go back to take a look at the person who started the thread. He isn't an atheist, he isn't mocking Christ, he isn't living in open rebellion against God. It seems to me he's a sincere Christian attempting to explain his loyalty to Christ and why he can't accept Mormonism. And according to Mormon theology, none of that is enough. No matter how much he loves Christ, or how faithful he is, Mormon theology and doctrine says he doesn't enter Spirit Paradise. He enters Prison, also called Hell. So I guess if you want we can debate whether Paradise is also some kind of temporary captivity or if prison has different meanings, either way, according to Mormon doctrine still places him in Spirit Prison not Paradise. Doesn't that tell us that Mormonism views Christianity itself is ultimately insufficient? Doesn't Mormonism teach that Christianity must be completed beyond itself? That's why I struggle when I hear Mormons say they are "Christians." Mormonism treats Christianity as something that has to be corrected or supplemented or I guess completed by Mormonism before it can become what God intentions the true Christianity to be. Can't speak for the gentleman that started the thread but for me Mormonism places Christianity beneath the "restored gospel."

No, it's not. Here's the church's definition of hell. Hell https://share.google/Dmabw0hH7giEJ2xKG Your subdivision of spirit prison into "not that bad" and "hell" isn't supported by church doctrine.

Haven't posted here in about 6 months because I've spent a time digging into LDS history and doctrine. One of the big reasons I can't become a member of the Mormon church is it's teaching that those who die without accepting the gospel don't go directly to spirit paradise. As I understand, spirit prison is hell and I along with all Christians will go there. If I don't accept the restored gospel I'll remain in hell for thousands of years.

I've been reading Mormon books and listening to a lot of talks that I've watched, and your definition of Mormon theology is exactly what I've heard. Given that Mormon doctrine states otherwise, why do so many people on this discussion board seem to want to persuade me that Mormons and Christians are on an equal footing? The doctrine makes it very clear that Christians are literally "playing church" if the Mormon church has all of God's authority while all Christian churches do not. I want to know if Mormons genuinely think that their church is the only one with genuine religious authority from God. I'm asking the Mormons this question. Apart from the Mormon faith, is there another Christian church that possesses 1% of God's authority?

No, we won't all be in his church, based on what I've learned about Mormon doctrine. Only those who have embraced the Mormon faith. Mormon doctrine contradicts what you're saying, so why are Mormons trying to include everyone? Are Baptist in Christ church once he returns? The Mormon religion I've studied is saying no.

I'm still watching the video, and I have to admit that the way this guy instructs the audience, seems to be an attempt to turn thee youth into narcissists! The lesson he is that while Mormons have everything in terms of the gospel, other religions are making do with what's left over, the scraps. The lesson is that if you leave the church, you will not only have nothing but also find it difficult to be happy. I appreciate you suggesting this talk. Later on, I'll start a thread in the other forum about it.

I'm researching the Mormon church, can you give me a link to the church's general authority's statement that everyone else is "playing" church? I can understand why the Mormon church feels that all other churches are merely "playing" church if they believe that no other church has divine authority.

I understand your concern, I want to push back a little. You're saying it's ok for a faith community to have it's own inside definitions and not applied globally. I actually agree with that. Happens in every religion. Problem is that Mormonism doesn't keep it's "definitions" inside the group. LDS explicitly believe the gospel is universally binding. That's a foundational belief isn't it? Same with salvation. LDS theology doesn't merely say "we define salvation differently for ourselves." Doesn't it teach no onee can return to God's presence without accepting the restored gospel, whether it is in this life or in spirit world? This is a global claim that applies to Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Buddhist, Atheist s, really everyone. LDS interpret the fate of all humanity through uniquely LDS categories and in my opinion not Christian categories. I'm not saying this makes Mormonism uniquely evil or dishonest because many religions make universal truth claims. But shouldn't we at least be honest about what is happening? You cannot say "your definitions are internal" and insist that everyone everywhere ultimately must conform to those definitions to reach God.

Thanks! I did research on this sentence. Feel free to critique. LDS believe Christ absolutely saves from physical death. Resurrection is unconditional. Christ is 100% responsible. But spiritual salvation works differently in Mormonism? That part Christ isn't responsible for, the individual is responsible for actually achieving it through obedience and ordinances. That's how a cousin explained it to me. That's why idea like "after all we can do" matter so much in LDS. I'm understanding LDS not just trusting in Christ alone, you actively are responsible for your own spiritual salvation. Am I understanding salvation according to LDS? Christianity believes Christ carries the final responsibility. LDS believe complete salvation is a shared responsibility. This is how my family explained it.