Mormons not Christian (according to new military list)

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

I am sorry, but  I can't just sit back and read "how much evangelicals denigrate you." Please tell me which Evangelicals denigrate you? Can you name any Evangelicals from Evangelical universities who denigrate you? Which Evangelical denominations denigrate you? Once again, I must simply suggest you are confusing Evangelicals with Fundamentalists. 

My anti-Mormon experiences were mostly with baptists but foursquare church attendees were usually meaner about it.

Faith Evangelical in Billings Montana worked tirelessly to stop the temple from being built, for example, and protested people trying to attend after it was finished. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

I am sorry, but  I can't just sit back and read "how much evangelicals denigrate you." Please tell me which Evangelicals denigrate you? Can you name any Evangelicals from Evangelical universities who denigrate you? Which Evangelical denominations denigrate you? Once again, I must simply suggest you are confusing Evangelicals with Fundamentalists. 

https://www.kylebeshears.com/p/what-constitutes-evangelical-anti

This guy does a good job of calling out anti-Mormon rhetoric in evangelical circles 

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

I am sorry, but  I can't just sit back and read "how much evangelicals denigrate you." Please tell me which Evangelicals denigrate you? Can you name any Evangelicals from Evangelical universities who denigrate you? Which Evangelical denominations denigrate you? Once again, I must simply suggest you are confusing Evangelicals with Fundamentalists. 

I quite like and appreciate Pastor Jeff on YouTube's hello saints. He's a solid example of an evangelical who is genuinely being respectful in his differences with LDS members. But he's also in multiple episodes noted both his own prejudices before doing his channel and what he sees in other evangelical protestant Christians who've done similar or worse. 

 

I don't know the denominational pedigree of the teens who would bully my friends or regurgitate falsehoods about us they received from their pastors. Couldn't tell you the name of the faith leaders on the Christian radio channel my mom liked who would give specials or passing comments about "the mormons." They rarely if ever id'd as fundamentalists. It was usually baptists or non-denominational or (yes) evangelical. It doesn't change the sting of the experience and the second hand prejudice it gave me that has taken me years to work through.

I should note it's not just evangelical groups. There's plenty of negative stereotypes given to Latter-Day Saints from varying circles. But it does happen. 

 

With luv 

BD

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

I am sorry, but  I can't just sit back and read "how much evangelicals denigrate you." Please tell me which Evangelicals denigrate you? Can you name any Evangelicals from Evangelical universities who denigrate you? Which Evangelical denominations denigrate you? Once again, I must simply suggest you are confusing Evangelicals with Fundamentalists. 

Both in my husband's mission and in my mission we had Assemblies of God congregations doing so.  They say on their website they are evangelical. A missionary in my mission was a member of that church and grew very concerned about her mormon friends because all of the big classes and anti-mormon things the churches in her area were putting on so she looked into this church and joined it. 

I met so many people who declared themselves baptist and evangelical and would denigrate the church.

i know this is a big thing for you, but I have so much experience with people telling me they are evangelical and then saying so many things about the church. 

if you have a problem with it, then maybe instead of trying to correct those of us with bad experiences, you should try to correct those who say they are evangelical and denigrate members of the church.  

[bsjkki]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

I am sorry, but  I can't just sit back and read "how much evangelicals denigrate you." Please tell me which Evangelicals denigrate you? Can you name any Evangelicals from Evangelical universities who denigrate you? Which Evangelical denominations denigrate you? Once again, I must simply suggest you are confusing Evangelicals with Fundamentalists. 

My pastor growing up did. Loved to tell my dad his wife and kids were going to hell, show the Godmakers. My list is long. We had anti-Mormon flyers on our cars frequently after church.  I don’t care if you believe me. I grew up Mormon and as a born again Christian. We want to be friends and find common ground. They do not. 

Edited Sunday at 03:29 AM by bsjkki

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

I am sorry, but  I can't just sit back and read "how much evangelicals denigrate you." Please tell me which Evangelicals denigrate you? Can you name any Evangelicals from Evangelical universities who denigrate you? Which Evangelical denominations denigrate you? Once again, I must simply suggest you are confusing Evangelicals with Fundamentalists. 

I and others on this and another board as well as in stuff written to FAIR have been denigrated by individuals who identified themselves as Evangelical.  Most of them never identified what denomination they belonged to and actually it was difficult to get them to speak of their own faith.  Their focus was on telling us they were wrong.

The few I have meant in person also  called themselves Evangelicals.

Given your distinction I try to speak of them as Fundamentalist, but if it happens again and they share they are Evangelical, I am not going to insist they call themselves Fundamentalist and depending on the context, I just might stick with the name they choose to call themselves.

[Calm]

While not all members of MRM are offensive, I have encountered at least one who was.  Unfortunately over 20 years ago and his name eludes me.

Quote

Mormonism Research Ministry is an evangelical missionary/apologetics organization that was organized in 1979 to propagate the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to critically evaluate the differences between Mormonism and biblical Christianity. Below are the ways that we accomplish this work. 

They identify as Evangelical.

https://mrm.org

Not impressed with Walter Martin’s kingdom of the cults. He is identified as an evangelical apologist.

Pretty sure Ed Decker identified as evangelical. Google does identify him as such.  Same with James White.

 

I definitely do not classify the vast majority of evangelicals as anti-Mormon. I don’t even classify ministries that target Mormons all anti-Mormon.  If they focus on disproving our faith as opposed to converting us to theirs, I would think that qualifies, especially if they sensationalize stuff.  Thus a number of them are and all of those so far I have seen identify themselves Evangelical iirc, though perhaps they would identify themselves also as fundamentalist. I would describe fundamentalist as a subgroup of evangelicals, but understand why some evangelicals see them as a separate branch of Christianity. I try to be careful not to use evangelical for its more fundamentalist version to respect evangelicals who do not denigrate the LDS faith. 
 

wiki appears to see it as a subset as well:

Quote

Fundamentalism is sometimes mistakenly confused with evangelicalism, of which it is a politically conservative subset.

Richard Abanes was certainly one of the nicer anti-Mormons I’ve met, got to know him pretty well for an online acquaintance as well as meeting in person as he hung out on this and the other board I was a part of.  Gave me two of his books (maybe just the Harry Potter one, but I had his One Nation Under Gods….may have purchased it as part of my dissection of his claims…he challenged us to do it and we had quite a few lively discussions).  Also a CD of his songs.  Liked his voice.  Wished he had stuck to singing.   

We talked privately as well. He asked me to help edit one of his books to make it more accurate, but I think we had a different definition of accurate. I turned him down as I didn’t see him altering much from criticism already given him. He identified as evangelical, he also pretty much intentionally misrepresented some LDS beliefs and definitely sensationalized it and admitted to using language LDS often found offensive ( “celestial sex” was the clearest example we discussed) so it would be more appealing for other Protestants rather than accurately present LDS beliefs.

Edited Sunday at 04:39 AM by Calm

[bsjkki]

Another perspective. Could this change help better meet the needs of LDS service members? 
 

@Navidad Sorry for my sharp response but it seemed you were denying my lived experience and I had just spent hours (I know…not healthy) scrolling X and reading so-called ‘friends’ tell me we’re not Christian and spreading vile stuff. That’s why I mentioned PTSD. I grew up in a home with religious conflict and my dad’s church’s frequently and often bashed ‘Mormons’ from the pulpit. I was grateful the reverse never happened. 

[Calm]

Hopefully that will be the result.p (more LDS chaplains, it is a good point).

But as far as acting to avoid lawsuits, not sure that’s a guarantee with this administration and they are likely to get plenty of lawsuits now with the removal of previously approved faiths.

Edited Sunday at 04:46 AM by Calm

[InCognitus]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

I am sorry, but  I can't just sit back and read "how much evangelicals denigrate you." Please tell me which Evangelicals denigrate you? Can you name any Evangelicals from Evangelical universities who denigrate you? Which Evangelical denominations denigrate you? Once again, I must simply suggest you are confusing Evangelicals with Fundamentalists. 

Maybe you need to define "Evangelicals" for us so I can answer this question better, but I have loads of experience with Christians that identify as "evangelical" that have denigrated me and my faith. 

My neighbor when I lived in Tempe, Arizona (in the 2000's), found out that I am a Latter-day Saints and invited me to a meeting at "Concerned Christians" (in Mesa, Arizona), a group whose web page (currently) says they are "Bringing the Biblical Jesus to the Latter-day Saints".  I went to a couple of their meetings with my neighbor (that was very entertaining). Their entire mission is to preach the bad news (non-gospel) to Latter-day Saints.

And I had multiple experiences at the Easter Pageant at the Mesa, Arizona temple, year after year, of people from Alpha and Omega Ministries bashing my faith (they align with Evangelical and Reformed Protestant theology), and also people from MRM and others.  

[Notatbm]

Not that I know anything but my 22 yrs experience in combat roles in the army taught me the Mormon church has less than zero cachet in the military. No one is gonna care if they are labeled as Christian’s or not. 
 

they won’t be caught dead at the grog bowl, but Jesus would. 

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP8skqDSv/
 

 

[The Nehor]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

Read the military.com article, lots more detail and commentary.  They are obviously not happy about the change….and for very good reasons imo if accurate.

https://www.military.com/dod-officially-drops-180-faiths-from-militarys-recognized-religion-list

 

How is religious liberty and practice helped by making so many religions invisible?

They also contrasted it with the previous Trump administration, implying imo that Trump is just letting Hegseth do what he wants.

 

Believe the unhinged reasons the appointed administration gives off the cuff. Don’t believe the PR people who come in afterwards to try to give more palatable reasons. 

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Another perspective. Could this change help better meet the needs of LDS service members? 
 

@Navidad Sorry for my sharp response but it seemed you were denying my lived experience and I had just spent hours (I know…not healthy) scrolling X and reading so-called ‘friends’ tell me we’re not Christian and spreading vile stuff. That’s why I mentioned PTSD. I grew up in a home with religious conflict and my dad’s church’s frequently and often bashed ‘Mormons’ from the pulpit. I was grateful the reverse never happened. 

I don’t buy it. Does this guy have inside information? So did they reach out to Wiccans and ask them if they wanted to be delisted? Doubt it.

[Kenngo1969]

11 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hey amigo, I ain't no creedal Christian either! Never was; never will be. What percentage of non-LDS, non-Catholic Christians would you guess are creedal?

Honestly, I don't have any idea.   I simply know that we [Latter-day Saints] and we [you and I] are not.

[Navidad]

10 hours ago, Buckeye said:

All of them. I support including all religious faiths on the pentagon list (and those of no faith). My point is the government should not decide which groups are Christian or not. Just include them all. 

Great. If you are a member of the LDS church, I hope you also support including us all on the heavenly list! Best wishes!

[Navidad]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

Read the military.com article, lots more detail and commentary.  They are obviously not happy about the change….and for very good reasons imo if accurate.

https://www.military.com/dod-officially-drops-180-faiths-from-militarys-recognized-religion-list

 

How is religious liberty and practice helped by making so many religions invisible?

They also contrasted it with the previous Trump administration, implying imo that Trump is just letting Hegseth do what he wants.

 

Calm mentioned Hegseth. Does any here on this forum know what is his religious affiliation? Not some broad generalization (I dislike them). But of what church is he a member? What church does he attend? That might help us understand with much more specificity (I always liked that word!). 

[Navidad]

10 hours ago, bluebell said:

My anti-Mormon experiences were mostly with baptists but foursquare church attendees were usually meaner about it.

Faith Evangelical in Billings Montana worked tirelessly to stop the temple from being built, for example, and protested people trying to attend after it was finished. 

The Foursquare Church as a denomination is not Evangelical. The only thing I know about "Faith E" church is what I read on their website. There is no denominational affiliation listed and no places of training of the pastors. Their statement of faith is very generic of conservative Christianity. Their pastoral staff is 100% male. Based on all of that they are a bit difficult to categorize. It would seem they are either Fundamentalist or very conservative Evangelical. I can't suggest anything more than that. I would need to listen to 10 to 20 of the pastor's sermons to get a better idea. I don't know if the E stands for evangelistic, evangel, or evangelical??? Each means something different.  

[Buckeye]

16 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Calm mentioned Hegseth. Does any here on this forum know what is his religious affiliation? Not some broad generalization (I dislike them). But of what church is he a member? What church does he attend? That might help us understand with much more specificity (I always liked that word!). 

He’s a follower of a Christian Nationalist evangelical pastor who teaches women she be excluded from the vote  

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20260506-hegseth-s-church-brings-its-christian-nationalism-to-washington

[Navidad]

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

https://www.kylebeshears.com/p/what-constitutes-evangelical-anti

This guy does a good job of calling out anti-Mormon rhetoric in evangelical circles 

Hi bluebell: Thanks for pointing out this website. I enjoyed reading it. I would love to dialogue with the fellow who wrote it and indeed may do so. My challenge to him would be that he seems to fail to recognize the existence of Fundamentalists on the Christian perspective. He never mentions them as more characteristic of what he identifies as the anti-fringe of what he is talking about. For me, not recognizing a difference between Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism is like a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints not recognizing a religious or theological difference between the LDS Church, and the Strangites, LeBarons, or FLDS. Sometimes the Evangelical word is used like the Mormon word. It is all encompassing, which is easy but not accurate. I would imagine that the author of this website has less association with Fundamentalists than with members of the LDS church. Anyway, enough of a response. Thanks for pointing out this website. It is a genuine step in the right direction. I will see if the author will dialogue with me regarding his definitions of terms. Take care. 

[Navidad]

11 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I quite like and appreciate Pastor Jeff on YouTube's hello saints. He's a solid example of an evangelical who is genuinely being respectful in his differences with LDS members. But he's also in multiple episodes noted both his own prejudices before doing his channel and what he sees in other evangelical protestant Christians who've done similar or worse. 

 

I don't know the denominational pedigree of the teens who would bully my friends or regurgitate falsehoods about us they received from their pastors. Couldn't tell you the name of the faith leaders on the Christian radio channel my mom liked who would give specials or passing comments about "the mormons." They rarely if ever id'd as fundamentalists. It was usually baptists or non-denominational or (yes) evangelical. It doesn't change the sting of the experience and the second hand prejudice it gave me that has taken me years to work through.

I should note it's not just evangelical groups. There's plenty of negative stereotypes given to Latter-Day Saints from varying circles. But it does happen. 

 

With luv 

BD

Of course it happens. There is no denying that. There is also no point in using a broad brush to identify those who are well-known for identifying themselves by what they are against, not by what they are for. It bullies and regurgitates (especially the latter) when my LDS friends simply identify anti-Mormonism with a broad brush (Evangelicals) that shows little understanding of the differences in conservative Christianity since the beginning of the twentieth century. The 1890s through the 1920s was a tumultuous time in LDS doctrine and history. Ditto for non-LDS Christianity in the USA. 

It is identical to what I would be doing if I simply used the term Mormon to refer to all the branches that have sprung up of the followers of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. I imagine you would not be pleased with me if I continually attributed the actions of the FLDS to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with no recognition of the significant differences. I teach people not to do that on the non-LDS Christian side of the debate. However, it appears that no one on the LDS side of the debate is teaching the significant differences between non-LDS Christianity. It goes back to previous discussions on this forum about how the LDS seem reasonably disinterested in learning about other faiths. That is a generalization, but it may be one that holds water (an old Mennonite saying). Evangelicals split from Fundamentalists. There is no denying that. Even my keyboard doesn't recognize the difference! It refuses to allow me to type  Fundamentalist with a capital F! It points out that it should be a small f! Hogwarts! Errr......Hogwash!    Baloney! Fundamentalism is a distinct grouping within both LDS and non-LDS Christianity.

There is indeed a spectrum among the Evangelical community as there is among the LDS community. But more important is the differences between different kinds of Mormons and between different kinds of non-LDS Christianity. Take care and very best wishes. 

[Navidad]

11 hours ago, Rain said:

Both in my husband's mission and in my mission we had Assemblies of God congregations doing so.  They say on their website they are evangelical. A missionary in my mission was a member of that church and grew very concerned about her mormon friends because all of the big classes and anti-mormon things the churches in her area were putting on so she looked into this church and joined it. 

I met so many people who declared themselves baptist and evangelical and would denigrate the church.

i know this is a big thing for you, but I have so much experience with people telling me they are evangelical and then saying so many things about the church. 

if you have a problem with it, then maybe instead of trying to correct those of us with bad experiences, you should try to correct those who say they are evangelical and denigrate members of the church.  

But don't you recognize that the LeBarons call themselves Mormons? As do the Strangites and many in the Community of Christ? The Assembly of God is a giant denomination, one of the fastest growing in the world. There are Assembly of God groups (churches, and sub-groups) that are Fundamentalist, that are Evangelical, and that are Mainstream). The latter three classifications exist in all branches of Christianity, perhaps even in the Mormon community as a whole. Yet there are major differences between them.

Yes it is a big thing for me. That is not reason to dismiss it as also being theologically correct. It is a big thing for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints not to be identified as the same as the FLDS, is it not? Should I dismiss the reality of the differences because it is a "big thing?" I think not. I could go even further (farther?) and suggest that the LDS Church is just one church among the many restorationist churches in Christianity. I could suggest that the Mennonites and Moravians were restorationist churches that existed hundreds of years before the LDS church. Therefore, they (LDS, Mennonites, and Moravians) are all the same "thing." I think that would bring howls of protest from certain members of this forum. They would propose I don't know what I am talking about. You know what? They would be right . . . if I claimed that. But I have studied the differences, so I don't claim that. So, yes, it is a big thing for me; that does not, however, negate the accuracy of my thing! Study the history of 20th century Christianity in the USA, you might notice the big thing! Take care. 

[Navidad]

10 hours ago, bsjkki said:

My pastor growing up did. Loved to tell my dad his wife and kids were going to hell, show the Godmakers. My list is long. We had anti-Mormon flyers on our cars frequently after church.  I don’t care if you believe me. I grew up Mormon and as a born again Christian. We want to be friends and find common ground. They do not. 

I don't deny your experience. I would never do that. I would suggest that your pastor and the makers of the Godmakers, who I know, are Fundamentalists. I don't deny anti-Mormonism. That would be silly of me. I deny that there is no difference between Evangelicals and Fundamentalists and that they are just points on the same spectrum. Tell me where your pastor went to college, if you know. What kind of Baptist was your church? The differences between Baptists are as significant as the differences between Mormon groups. I have worked with independent Baptists, Southern Baptists, Reformed Baptists, and American (Northern) Baptists. The differences are huge. Some are predominantly Fundamentalists, other predominantly Evangelical, and others Mainstream. The tendency is non-LDS Christianity today is for Fundamentalists to identify as Evangelicals, even though they despise some Evangelical tenets. There is much less tendency for Fundamentalists to identify as Mainstream and virtually not tendency for Mainstream non-LDS Christians to identify as Fundamentalist. 

[Navidad]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

I and others on this and another board as well as in stuff written to FAIR have been denigrated by individuals who identified themselves as Evangelical.  Most of them never identified what denomination they belonged to and actually it was difficult to get them to speak of their own faith.  Their focus was on telling us they were wrong.

The few I have meant in person also  called themselves Evangelicals.

Given your distinction I try to speak of them as Fundamentalist, but if it happens again and they share they are Evangelical, I am not going to insist they call themselves Fundamentalist and depending on the context, I just might stick with the name they choose to call themselves.

Understood. Even today, there is much less a stigma attached to Evangelical than to Fundamentalist. I would also guess that anyone under fifty might not even be aware of the differences. It is not widely taught, but it is broader than being "Navidad's thing."

[bsjkki]

11 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I don't deny your experience. I would never do that. I would suggest that your pastor and the makers of the Godmakers, who I know, are Fundamentalists. I don't deny anti-Mormonism. That would be silly of me. I deny that there is no difference between Evangelicals and Fundamentalists and that they are just points on the same spectrum. Tell me where your pastor went to college, if you know. What kind of Baptist was your church? The differences between Baptists are as significant as the differences between Mormon groups. I have worked with independent Baptists, Southern Baptists, Reformed Baptists, and American (Northern) Baptists. The differences are huge. Some are predominantly Fundamentalists, other predominantly Evangelical, and others Mainstream. The tendency is non-LDS Christianity today is for Fundamentalists to identify as Evangelicals, even though they despise some Evangelical tenets. There is much less tendency for Fundamentalists to identify as Mainstream and virtually not tendency for Mainstream non-LDS Christians to identify as Fundamentalist. 

No Baptist label at all. 

[Navidad]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

While not all members of MRM are offensive, I have encountered at least one who was.  Unfortunately over 20 years ago and his name eludes me.

They identify as Evangelical.

https://mrm.org

Not impressed with Walter Martin’s kingdom of the cults. He is identified as an evangelical apologist.

Pretty sure Ed Decker identified as evangelical. Google does identify him as such.  Same with James White.

 

I definitely do not classify the vast majority of evangelicals as anti-Mormon. I don’t even classify ministries that target Mormons all anti-Mormon.  If they focus on disproving our faith as opposed to converting us to theirs, I would think that qualifies, especially if they sensationalize stuff.  Thus a number of them are and all of those so far I have seen identify themselves Evangelical iirc, though perhaps they would identify themselves also as fundamentalist. I would describe fundamentalist as a subgroup of evangelicals, but understand why some evangelicals see them as a separate branch of Christianity. I try to be careful not to use evangelical for its more fundamentalist version to respect evangelicals who do not denigrate the LDS faith. 
 

wiki appears to see it as a subset as well:

Richard Abanes was certainly one of the nicer anti-Mormons I’ve met, got to know him pretty well for an online acquaintance as well as meeting in person as he hung out on this and the other board I was a part of.  Gave me two of his books (maybe just the Harry Potter one, but I had his One Nation Under Gods….may have purchased it as part of my dissection of his claims…he challenged us to do it and we had quite a few lively discussions).  Also a CD of his songs.  Liked his voice.  Wished he had stuck to singing.   

We talked privately as well. He asked me to help edit one of his books to make it more accurate, but I think we had a different definition of accurate. I turned him down as I didn’t see him altering much from criticism already given him. He identified as evangelical, he also pretty much intentionally misrepresented some LDS beliefs and definitely sensationalized it and admitted to using language LDS often found offensive ( “celestial sex” was the clearest example we discussed) so it would be more appealing for other Protestants rather than accurately present LDS beliefs.

Ok my friend. I guess this will be last response. How can I possibly argue against Wikipedia, that font of modern religious knowledge? I need to stop because now I am  getting sarcastic. Not a good thing. I will simply suggest that I knew Walter Martin. He was in our home near Philly many times. I also remember firsthand the scoldings he got from the new Evangelical movement for his strident tone in his writing. Those were the early years of the Fundamentalist/Evangelical split in US Christianity. There was the famous Bluebird sermon that the founders of Evangelicalism used to scold the Fundamentalists of the 1950s and 60s, especially Martin.

Most likely, none of you know any of that history, neither did the writer of the Wikipedia article, neither does the 30 year old pastor who wants to model himself after Billy Graham, but who will never wear that prophetic mantle (prophetic as in forthtelling - preaching). I can tell that I need to add an article on this to my website. Then if you all read it on a website you will find it much more credible than reading it in one of Navidad's posts. I guess that was a little snarky, but for once I am not going to delete it. Oh, and next time I want to know something about LDS beliefs I will be sure to check out wikipedia; no need to ask here! Ha! That was funny, wasn't it? Oh, and next time I am in LeBaron (this week), I will accept it when one of the folks there tells me he is Mormon, every bit as Mormon as his LDS cousin! After all, he self-identifies that way, so it must be true! Ok, now I crossed the line. 😇