Man of lawlessness

[Orthodox Christian]

Hello all, I'm  gingerly tiptoing around anything political with this post. However, there are many events which are happening in this present moment, that when we read the passage in 2 Thessalonions I believe, there seem to be startling parallels.  I don't  necessarily mean certain individuals, but there's  a spirit abroad that is reckless and lawless which is creating havoc in the world. What are your thoughts?

[3DOP]

2 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Hello all, I'm  gingerly tiptoing around anything political with this post. However, there are many events which are happening in this present moment, that when we read the passage in 2 Thessalonions I believe, there seem to be startling parallels.  I don't  necessarily mean certain individuals, but there's  a spirit abroad that is reckless and lawless which is creating havoc in the world. What are your thoughts?

Of course I am interested in my own time. But this reckless spirit abroad, in which I also believe, has been doing this in everyone's time. 

I tend to think that the moderators are only trying to keep the crazy Republican and Democrat Americans from boring fights we can watch on what...some cable channel? I can't remember. Anyway, I think they might permit your political concerns that overlap into religion. Or your religious concerns that overlap into politics. Keep tiptoeing as you can...but try to inexplicitly say what you are getting at.

Is there some new thing of which I have not heard? Being naturally a newshound, I don't always succeed, but I try to be ignorant. What is the newest Leviathan info?  

[Navidad]

6 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Hello all, I'm  gingerly tiptoing around anything political with this post. However, there are many events which are happening in this present moment, that when we read the passage in 2 Thessalonions I believe, there seem to be startling parallels.  I don't  necessarily mean certain individuals, but there's  a spirit abroad that is reckless and lawless which is creating havoc in the world. What are your thoughts?

I agree with 3DOP. Can you be more specific about your concerns? I am 77 years old and can testify that crazy things have been going on in the world my entire life and for millennia previously. My father was an avid and knowledgeable preacher on prophetic themes throughout the 1950s and 70s. He believed fervently that then current events indicated the end times. Well, respectfully, he was wrong. Tell us more about your concerns. 

[InCognitus]

14 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Hello all, I'm  gingerly tiptoing around anything political with this post. However, there are many events which are happening in this present moment, that when we read the passage in 2 Thessalonions I believe, there seem to be startling parallels.  I don't  necessarily mean certain individuals, but there's  a spirit abroad that is reckless and lawless which is creating havoc in the world. What are your thoughts?

I agree with 3DOP and Navidad above.

I see 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 as describing the works of Satan as the "man of lawlessness" throughout time.  In verse 7 Paul says, "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is removed."  He's not taken out until Christ returns.  

[The Nehor]

While things are bad right now relative to a lot of other recent times things have been much worse in term of lawlessness in many areas of the world throughout history since that was written. I see nothing special about this specific instance except that we happen to be living in it right now.

[3DOP]

On 5/23/2026 at 3:34 AM, Orthodox Christian said:

Hello all, I'm  gingerly tiptoing around anything political with this post. However, there are many events which are happening in this present moment, that when we read the passage in 2 Thessalonions I believe, there seem to be startling parallels.  I don't  necessarily mean certain individuals, but there's  a spirit abroad that is reckless and lawless which is creating havoc in the world. What are your thoughts?

OC.

I am the first of several who pooh poohed your idea. I was thinking strongly your way as recently as Covid. We still are interested in your own thoughts. Just because others have been wrong about it many times doesn't mean that Christians can always dismiss the antichrist in their own times. I am leaning towards dismissal these days. But I keep somewhat away from the news. So I would like to hear what concerns you. It is likely something of which I have not heard.

Edited May 24 by 3DOP

[3DOP]

Going back to Navidad's good father who preached that it was the end time through the 50's and 70's, I am remembering 88 reasons the rapture is happening in 1988. I was a premillenial Baptist preacher myself at that time who, whether it was silly or not, paid some attention to that. Four years later I was amillenial. Seven years later, I was Catholic. I haven't really made much effort at end times prophecy now for over thirty years. Covid felt like the world was ending. It wasn't about Daniel or Revelation. It was just life in this world then. It felt oppressive. But that wasn't the end either. I am just explaining why I am skeptical now. Maybe I am falsely conditioned to ignore signs of the times?

 

[Calm]

33 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Maybe I am falsely conditioned to ignore signs of the times?

Too much “crying wolf” has happened?

Are the End Times supposed to be the worse times for humanity since getting kicked out of the Garden?  Never had an End Times interest, so only know it’s supposed to get very, very bad….

Pulling from Google…if it’s supposed to be the worse, it seems like it will be pretty obvious.

The Black Death, possibly 50% of the European population and 33% of the Middle East (10% global).  

The Great Dying of the Americas (90% of the indigenous population, again about 10% of the global population)

1918 Influenza:  3-6% global

El Niños of 1875-78: famines killing about 4% global.

WW II:  3% global

Sounds like the Toba Supervolcano was possibly the worst as there might have been from a thousand to 10,000 individuals left (though debated).  Never studied this in detail, so don’t know how credible this theory is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youngest_Toba_eruption

One should never underestimate the ability of human stupidity to create disasters though.  Add human greed into the mix….

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_campaign

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine

Edited May 24 by Calm

[longview]

59 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Covid felt like the world was ending. It wasn't about Daniel or Revelation. It was just life in this world then. It felt oppressive. But that wasn't the end either.

This was merely a "dry run" by the Deep State for implementing and testing out implements of mass control and shaking out systems of oppression. With billions of dollars shelled out to hospitals for hyping Covid deaths (e.g. $40,000 "subsidy" for reporting each incident). ETC ETC ETC

[3DOP]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Too much “crying wolf” has happened?

Are the End Times supposed to be the worse times for humanity since getting kicked out of the Garden?  Never had an End Times interest, so only know it’s supposed to get very, very bad….

Pulling from Google…if it’s supposed to be the worse, it seems like it will be pretty obvious.

The Black Death, possibly 50% of the European population and 33% of the Middle East (10% global).  

The Great Dying of the Americas (90% of the indigenous population, again about 10% of the global population)

1918 Influenza:  3-6% global

El Niños of 1875-78: famines killing about 4% global.

WW II:  3% global

Sounds like the Toba Supervolcano was possibly the worst as there might have been from a thousand to 10,000 individuals left (though debated).  Never studied this in detail, so don’t know how credible this theory is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youngest_Toba_eruption

One should never underestimate the ability of human stupidity to create disasters though.  Add human greed into the mix….

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_campaign

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine

Yes calm. A lot of the sky is falling. My first interest in religion came in my early twenties. I was watching the show that came on after the Tonight Show with Carson. Late Night Show??? The name escapes me. Hal Lindsey wrote the Late Great Planet Earth and was plugging this book with host Tom Snyder. 

Lindsey was trying to demonstrate why Bible prophecy about the end was upon us. In effect, crying wolf. That was mid 70's. Snyder was kind of mocking Lindsey. "You mean we are all just going to fly off into space," asking about the Rapture. Tom thought it was amusing. It scared me. I went and got this book, and then I started reading this old Bible that was given to my Dad years before. Nobody missed it. I was also listening to Christian radio on the sly. 

 A couple of years later, I went to a church for the first time. That was hard. I was scared. Heh. I forget that I got snagged through that stuff. Thank God for Hal Lindsey!

 

[Navidad]

7 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Yes calm. A lot of the sky is falling. My first interest in religion came in my early twenties. I was watching the show that came on after the Tonight Show with Carson. Late Night Show??? The name escapes me. Hal Lindsey wrote the Late Great Planet Earth and was plugging this book with host Tom Snyder. 

Lindsey was trying to demonstrate why Bible prophecy about the end was upon us. In effect, crying wolf. That was mid 70's. Snyder was kind of mocking Lindsey. "You mean we are all just going to fly off into space," asking about the Rapture. Tom thought it was amusing. It scared me. I went and got this book, and then I started reading this old Bible that was given to my Dad years before. Nobody missed it. I was also listening to Christian radio on the sly. 

 A couple of years later, I went to a church for the first time. That was hard. I was scared. Heh. I forget that I got snagged through that stuff. Thank God for Hal Lindsey!

 

Hi My Friend: I grew up inside the hardcore prophetic movement of Darby and Scofield (1917 edition). As a boy, I was never home during the summers because my dad and I were constantly traveling to the great Bible conferences held during the summer all over the eastern United States. For my LDS friends, Bible conferences were like rustic resorts for Fundamentalists to vacation over the summer, receive morning and evening Bible teachings from many of America and Europe's great conservative Bible teachers (prophets in a forthtelling sense). The music was wonderful, softball was plentiful, fishing, and always a kids camp connected. One of my favorites, by the way, was Letourneau Christian Camp in Canandaigua, New York, on Lake Canandaigua, very close to the area of the founding of the LDS church. My dad was right in the middle of it as a prominent Bible teacher. He was very academic about it; not very hell-fire and brimstone, but more into the Greek, Hebrew, and geographical significance of it all. I remember the massive charts, showing in minute detail what would happen when (not by date, but by event). This was premillennial, pre-tribulational prophecy at its most influential for the thinking Fundamentalist. I often stayed with my dad in the adult conference center instead of in the kid's camp. I enjoyed the music and teaching of the adult camp. Since my dad was a speaker, we got to stay in the nice speaker's cabin, where each speaker had a private bedroom, and they all stayed up real late exchanging theories and debating the importance of Meschek and Tubal. 

My dad wrote little pamphlets, which were all the rage back then. "Why I am a Friend of the Jews," "In Times Like These," "What is the Fate of the Jew?" "Is Israel Palestine?" and on and on. At sixteen years of age, I preached my first sermon at our church, which was semi-Mennonite and semi-pre-millennial (Mennonites in those days were amillennial). My sermon was on Ezekiel 38 and the influence of Gog and Magog. I was well-trained! Or at least well-exposed. That is why I have always been so interested in Woodruff's Desert or Sunset Revelation. It is prophetic teaching at its finest. It is interesting that the Brethren did not find it to be official revelation for the Church.  If he had the revelation a few years later as president, it might have been a revelation, and the church's view of eschatology might today be according to that revelation. Who knows? 

I say all this to inform my friends about the world in which I grew up where prophetic teachings were the norm. Daily routines were amended depending on what was happening in the Middle East. That movement has lost its potency in the Evangelical post-Fundamentalist world of today. Of course such prophetic interest remains, especially in independent non-denominational Bible churches and conservative Baptist circles. It has nowhere near the influence today that it had in the forties and fifties and then in the late sixties and seventies. I worked for Jerry Falwell, Sr., in the late seventies when he was moving towards Evangelicalism and away from his Southern Fundamentalist roots. As I remember, he never had the passion for prophecy that some of his preacher friends had. I hope this simple historical review of what it was like to grow up in the heart of one example of the prophetic movement in the United States, England, and Scotland is interesting for those who may not be familiar with it. 

Edited May 25 by Navidad
fix grammar and typos

[Tony uk]

I have been reading these posts with interest, finally gave in and decided to add my thoughts.

 Maybe the end of times will be a long drawn out process. It could be possible, the beginning will set the stage for things to get set in motion until the eventual end. If the 'beginning' of the end has started. It may have been recent, it may have started centuries ago. Jesus did warn about impending wars and so on. 

[3DOP]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Hi My Friend: I grew up inside the hardcore prophetic movement of Darby and Scofield (1917 edition). As a boy, I was never home during the summers because my dad and I were constantly traveling to the great Bible conferences held during the summer all over the eastern United States. For my LDS friends, Bible conferences were like rustic resorts for Fundamentalists to vacation over the summer, receive morning and evening Bible teachings from many of America and Europe's great conservative Bible teachers (prophets in a forthtelling sense). The music was wonderful, softball was plentiful, fishing, and always a kids camp connected. One of my favorites, by the way, was Letourneau Christian Camp in Canandaigua, New York, on Lake Canandaigua, very close to the area of the founding of the LDS church. My dad was right in the middle of it as a prominent Bible teacher. He was very academic about it; not very hell-fire and brimstone, but more into the Greek, Hebrew, and geographical significance of it all. I remember the massive charts, showing in minute detail what would happen when (not by date, but by event). This was premillennial, pre-tribulational prophecy at its most influential for the thinking Fundamentalist. I often stayed with my dad in the adult conference center instead of in the kid's camp. I enjoyed the music and teaching of the adult camp. Since my dad was a speaker, we got to stay in the nice speaker's cabin, where each speaker had a private bedroom, and they all stayed up real late exchanging theories and debating the importance of Meschek and Tubal. 

My dad wrote little pamphlets, which were all the rage back then. "Why I am a Friend of the Jews," "In Times Like These," "What is the Fate of the Jew?" "Is Israel Palestine?" and on and on. At sixteen years of age, I preached my first sermon at our church, which was semi-Mennonite and semi-pre-millennial (Mennonites in those days were amillennial). My sermon was on Ezekiel 38 and the influence of Gog and Magog. I was well-trained! Or at least well-exposed. That is why I have always been so interested in Woodruff's Desert or Sunset Revelation. It is prophetic teaching at its finest. It is interesting that the Brethren did not find it to be official revelation for the Church.  If he had the revelation a few years later as president, it might have been a revelation, and the church's view of eschatology might today be according to that revelation. Who knows? 

I say all this to inform my friends about the world in which I grew up where prophetic teachings were the norm. Daily routines were amended depending on what was happening in the Middle East. That movement has lost its potency in the Evangelical post-Fundamentalist world of today. Of course such prophetic interest remains, especially in independent non-denominational Bible churches and conservative Baptist circles. It has nowhere near the influence today that it had in the forties and fifties and then in the late sixties and seventies. I worked for Jerry Falwell, Sr., in the late seventies when he was moving towards Evangelicalism and away from his Southern Fundamentalist roots. As I remember, he never had the passion for prophecy that some of his preacher friends had. I hope this simple historical review of what it was like to grow up in the heart of one example of the prophetic movement in the United States, England, and Scotland is interesting for those who may not be familiar with it. 

Navidad. 

This thread is bringing up old and rarely recalled memories. That first church I went to? It was nearest my house. I had picked up a friend from the other side of town one Sunday morning to go to a church. Everytime we spotted one, I would lost my nerve. After going all the back towards where I lived...I knew there weren't  any more places to go. 

The preacher had a Scofield and was studying the book of Revelation. I was interested in that through Hal Lindsay. Within a year I was with a bunch of young kids mainly from the South and Midwest who had grown up in that environment...Hyles-Anderson. I had not been in any states except on the West Coast. I came in January. This was in the Chicagoland area, after the blizzard that probably...the memories...late leaving Portland...finding a bus...and the roads...getting in around midnight...sleeping on the floor for a week...I stayed.

I am glad. It was a part of my continuing journey in and out of fringe Christianity. The pastor of that  church was what is now called a Sovereign Citizen. While I was at college he got locked up for for rolling around town with a license plate that said 1611 AV. For the rest of you, 1611 is the year of the translation of the Authorized Version, or King James Bible. He preached on the evils of insurance while I was away. Good night (that is a Hyles expression that I have retained.) There were people buying property up in the hills and building makeshift homes without permits, trying to make livings without Social Security cards but happy that they have a refuge when Antichrist takes over. He lived with his family in a school bus for a few years. Up in the hills.

I don't have regrets. Everything in my life has informed who I am now. I made my choices and many weren't what I would advise. Anyway, maybe this sheds light on my first reaction to Orthodox Christian.

Prophesy isn’t always connected with lunacy. I need to remember that. Again OC, I hope we don't run you off because of experiences. Keep your social. Get building permits, etc. I use a bank now. I don't use cash very often. So far, so 👍. 

Everybody I knew including the pastor eventually became more normal in less than ten years. But that last book of the New Testament? I will say this. It is easy to misunderstand. If it makes you crazy 🤪,  you have misunderstood something.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 25 by 3DOP

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Navidad. 

This thread is bringing up old and rarely recalled memories. That first church I went to? It was nearest my house. I had picked up a friend from the other side of town one Sunday morning to go to a church. Everytime we spotted one, I would lost my nerve. After going all the back towards where I lived...I knew there weren't  any more places to go. 

The preacher had a Scofield and was studying the book of Revelation. I was interested in that through Hal Lindsay. Within a year I was with a bunch of young kids mainly from the South and Midwest who had grown up in that environment...Hyles-Anderson. I had not been in any states except on the West Coast. I came in January. This was in the Chicagoland area, after the blizzard that probably...the memories...late leaving Portland...finding a bus...and the roads...getting in around midnight...sleeping on the floor for a week...I stayed.

I am glad. It was a part of my continuing journey in and out of fringe Christianity. The pastor of that  church was what is now called a Sovereign Citizen. While I was at college he got locked up for for rolling around town with a license plate that said 1611 AV. For the rest of you, 1611 is the year of the translation of the Authorized Version, or King James Bible. He preached on the evils of insurance while I was away. Good night (that is a Hyles expression that I have retained.) There were people buying property up in the hills and building makeshift homes without permits, trying to make livings without Social Security cards but happy that they have a refuge when Antichrist takes over. He lived with his family in a school bus for a few years. Up in the hills.

I don't have regrets. Everything in my life has informed who I am now. I made my choices and many weren't what I would advise. Anyway, maybe this sheds light on my first reaction to Orthodox Christian.

Prophesy isn’t always connected with lunacy. I need to remember that. Again OC, I hope we don't run you off because of experiences. Keep your social. Get building permits, etc. I use a bank now. I don't use cash very often. So far, so 👍. 

Everybody I knew including the pastor eventually became more normal in less than ten years. But that last book of the New Testament? I will say this. It is easy to misunderstand. If it makes you crazy 🤪,  you have misunderstood something.

Jack Hyles and Jerry Falwell represented differing cultural representations of American Fundamentalism. They had an on-and-off-again relationship, mostly off, as I remember. My dad represented yet a third branch of Fundamentalism, the great teachers of the prophetic passages of the Bible. They were conservative by today's standards, but not radical. My upbringing was characterized by a strict "word of wisdom" defined by all the worldly things my sisters and I were not allowed to participate in. Our standard joke was we were not allowed to have premarital sex because it led to dancing! Any type of dancing was forbidden. I have never quite figured out how the LDS church has been so conservative and yet so pro-dancing! Ha! That again just shows the diversity of beliefs/doctrine that were probably more culture than anything else! 

 

 

 

 

[Navidad]

1 minute ago, Navidad said:

I just replied to 3DOP's message and somehow my reply got attached to his. Here it is separately. Jack Hyles and Jerry Falwell represented differing cultural representations of American Fundamentalism. They had an on-and-off-again relationship, mostly off, as I remember. My dad represented yet a third branch of Fundamentalism, the great teachers of the prophetic passages of the Bible. They were conservative by today's standards, but not radical. My upbringing was characterized by a strict "word of wisdom" defined by all the worldly things my sisters and I were not allowed to participate in. Our standard joke was we were not allowed to have premarital sex because it led to dancing! Any type of dancing was forbidden. I have never quite figured out how the LDS church has been so conservative and yet so pro-dancing! Ha! That again just shows the diversity of beliefs/doctrine that were probably more culture than anything else! 

 

Edited May 25 by Navidad
confusion

[3DOP]

17 minutes ago, Navidad said:

 

That is good one about pre marital sex leads to dancing. And yeah we perceived Falwell as less fundamental.

Shoot...the day I arrived at our no dancing college, I was warned very nicely by a gal later that day, that I shouldn't  have shaken her hand when we met. Dancing? Unless somebody  of the opposite sex fell down or was having trouble on ice, no touching! I got engaged at that place and I obeyed. I also refused the holding an ink pen to my future wife's cheek as a form of intimacy. You'd see that now and again. My wife never gave the least indication that she would have liked that!

 

[3DOP]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

 

I always had a soft spot and still do, for Br. Falwell. I think I was disappointed when he took Baptist off the name of the school. But by '89 I took Baptist off my church. All I knew previous to that was that Larkin and the dispensationalists knew the Scriptures and interpreted them in a consistent, coherent way. Then I discovered there were other ways that were also consistent. That was a crisis. At the end it came down to LDS or Catholic for me. I left the Protestant scene not because they all sounded bad. No! They all sounded good, from Lutheran to the Reformed. I even looked into Anglicanism. I never really knew much about Pentecostalism. I am sure they aren't stupid though. You and I disagree on a visible church and priesthood and that stuff. Ecclesiology. 

My wife's parents went to a good Baptist Church in Tennessee. Good man, with a good school too, was pastor. A mature Bob Jones guy my own father's age. Bob Jones guy. He let me preach there once when I was visiting. Next thing I hear the church was split. Do you remember a mid-trib rapture movement? This brother caught up with that and that is how serious people were about little distinctions. A good loving man with a strong ministry in the town. He shouldn't have even told anybody. How often do you need to preach on that. 

I don't know if you know, but by the late 70's Hyles NEVER spoke about eschatology. The college? I took a class Daniel and Revelation. The whole semester was moral stories from the first chapters of Daniel and the seven churches in Revelation. It was good but not what one expected. Same thing with Ezekiel. I have never known why they had that strategy. Maybe they had differing opinions on the staff? I think you shouldn't make the end time prophecy a deal killer. 

I never think about this stuff. It was so long ago...But you know Navidad. A few years ago you made a remark about how I had tended towards the far fundie side of things and implied I had done that as a Catholic. I had never thought about my journey that way before. There were other things but that observation made me look at myself. Anyway, I am getting less "out there". The Freemasons aren't in charge of the Church, but the Lord is. It belongs to Him. I even believe we went to the moon now! That stuff goes together. Anyway, I've never told you, but I appreciate you for that remark you made. I have pondered it many times.  

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, 3DOP said:

I always had a soft spot and still do, for Br. Falwell. I think I was disappointed when he took Baptist off the name of the school. But by '89 I took Baptist off my church. All I knew previous to that was that Larkin and the dispensationalists knew the Scriptures and interpreted them in a consistent, coherent way. Then I discovered there were other ways that were also consistent. That was a crisis. At the end it came down to LDS or Catholic for me. I left the Protestant scene not because they all sounded bad. No! They all sounded good, from Lutheran to the Reformed. I even looked into Anglicanism. I never really knew much about Pentecostalism. I am sure they aren't stupid though. You and I disagree on a visible church and priesthood and that stuff. Ecclesiology. 

My wife's parents went to a good Baptist Church in Tennessee. Good man, with a good school too, was pastor. A mature Bob Jones guy my own father's age. Bob Jones guy. He let me preach there once when I was visiting. Next thing I hear the church was split. Do you remember a mid-trib rapture movement? This brother caught up with that and that is how serious people were about little distinctions. A good loving man with a strong ministry in the town. He shouldn't have even told anybody. How often do you need to preach on that. 

I don't know if you know, but by the late 70's Hyles NEVER spoke about eschatology. The college? I took a class Daniel and Revelation. The whole semester was moral stories from the first chapters of Daniel and the seven churches in Revelation. It was good but not what one expected. Same thing with Ezekiel. I have never known why they had that strategy. Maybe they had differing opinions on the staff? I think you shouldn't make the end time prophecy a deal killer. 

I never think about this stuff. It was so long ago...But you know Navidad. A few years ago you made a remark about how I had tended towards the far fundie side of things and implied I had done that as a Catholic. I had never thought about my journey that way before. There were other things but that observation made me look at myself. Anyway, I am getting less "out there". The Freemasons aren't in charge of the Church, but the Lord is. It belongs to Him. I even believe we went to the moon now! That stuff goes together. Anyway, I've never told you, but I appreciate you for that remark you made. I have pondered it many times.  

I have a special place in my heart for the Moravian Church. Are you familiar with them? I would join them in a heartbeat if I could. Dr. Lakin is buried on the Liberty University campus. He was very close to Dr. Falwell. I met him numerous times. He was an excellent natural preacher. He could have you laughing one minute and almost crying the next. Too many folks are too certain about too many things, many of which are not essential for salvation. We are all pilgrims, journeying through our lives, migrating to find a place that makes sense for us. We are like kaleidoscopes, turning and turning the thing until we find a design that makes sense for us. I think that congruence in life is when we finally find that design. You are a good man. I am grateful for your wisdom and kindness to me over the years. 

[Calm]

9 hours ago, 3DOP said:

He lived with his family in a school bus for a few years. Up in the hills.

I know an LDS family who did pretty much the same thing with a converted school bus, joined a community out in Southern Utah that was going to live by the original constitution meaning, not all the progressive crap that got attached to it (I was too timid back then to ask about what they thought about slavery).  There was also End Times beliefs woven into it (they were setting up the community by that standard to withstand the troubles to come).

We were out in Wichita, Kanas at the time and it was odd to me they were moving to Utah when they were within spitting distance of Missouri in my mind (just a little over 200 miles from Independence apparently) since when we lived in California and at BYU people talked about moving to Missouri to beat the rush at the end. (Slightly snide here, but it had that vibe)

Edited May 25 by Calm

[Calm]

6 hours ago, 3DOP said:

also refused the holding an ink pen to my future wife's cheek as a form of intimacy.

Huh?  I am trying to imagine how this goes and am not having any success.

Edited May 25 by Calm

[The Nehor]

On 5/24/2026 at 7:06 PM, longview said:

This was merely a "dry run" by the Deep State for implementing and testing out implements of mass control and shaking out systems of oppression. With billions of dollars shelled out to hospitals for hyping Covid deaths (e.g. $40,000 "subsidy" for reporting each incident). ETC ETC ETC

That’s ridiculous. That is exactly what the Reptilians want us to think to distract us from their plans to convert us all into their slave soldiers as part of their invasion of Beta Centauri.

WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!!!!

 

[3DOP]

On 5/25/2026 at 3:43 PM, Calm said:

Huh?  I am trying to imagine how this goes and am not having any success.

It was an environment of ultra-repressed physical safeguards against young people of the opposite sex being allowed to express their affection for another through physical contact.

I know this was not prevalent, but it made a few young men, at least publicly, resort to another material object to "touch" the other affectionate party. I thought the symptom of some to satisfy their natural desires to hold hands or some other sign resulted from what I now consider an excessive policy.

We were allowed to stare into eyes. Listen, cal, this is still embarrassing, I shouldn't have brought it up to respond to Navi's joke above about dancing. I saw the practice of using an ink pen, instead of one's hand to affectionately and tenderly stroke the cheek of the beloved. I disapprove of most public displays of affection among the unmarried. Of course, married people like me think it is disgraceful, undignified, and disgusting. I would rather see the use of a pen though, than the pawing I have seen at family gatherings as well as any public place.

I would not say that about holding hands. "The pen" was cultural in a particular time and place that I observed with disapproval in that I could see it and, it seemed stupid and unsatisfactory. I am sure, that as with pawing, "the pen" fell into public  disuse after marriage.

Maybe some of you assume that they were using the pens to actually draw their love on each other? No. They used paint and brush for that. Just kidding.

All this is something I RARELY think about. It is just opinion. Anyone who wants to try "the pen"? Fine. I will never argue against it if confonted. I have retained my virginity as regards that action, and cannot speak from experience. All in all, it doesn’t seem harmful enough to need to take a position about it as I have. To be honest, I probably should not have raised the question. 

Maybe I need to say again that it was not a prevalent practice. I was just trying to explain the reaction of a few to a repressive approach to pre-marital relationships that did not tolerate hand holding by engaged couples. I think it demonstrates something that strikes me, and me alone, as somewhat weird and disordered. But I don’t consider it worth further analysis!

Cal, I wish you all could see me. I am laughing about making such a long post about something so unwarranted. I am okay with you asking about it. But, I have problems with avoiding giving full expression to my opinions on other trivial matters too. Cal, you are a great internet sister, but this time through my fault, you have brought out the stupid in me. 

Rory

 

 

 

 

 

[theplains]

On 5/23/2026 at 6:54 PM, InCognitus said:

I see 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 as describing the works of Satan as the "man of lawlessness" throughout time.  In verse 7 Paul says, "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is removed."  He's not taken out until Christ returns.  

Several LDS Church teachings use that chapter (usually only verses 1-4 or 1-7) to teach a great 
apostasy occurred after the death of the apostles but she don't account for when the "Wicked" was 
revealed, whose coming what evidenced by "all power and signs and lying wonders".

I believe this great apostasy points to the period just before the Second Coming, not a period that
started two millennia ago.

"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken 
out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit 
of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after 
the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of 
unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they 
might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe 
a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness".

God did not send a strong delusion yet to allow Satan to deceive the people with "all power and 
signs and lying wonders".

The "he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way" I believe is some future event
when the Holy Spirit's restraining influence is taken from the earth. Only then is this evil person 
revealed.

[Calm]

14 hours ago, 3DOP said:

know this was not prevalent, but it made a few young men, at least publicly, resort to another material object to "touch" the other affectionate party. I thought the symptom of some to satisfy their natural desires to hold hands or some other sign resulted from what I now consider an excessive policy.

Quote

Listen, cal, this is still embarrassing

I am sorry I made you feel embarrassed, made things awkward.  I didn’t think of it that way.  To me, it’s just like watching a dance (maybe not the best analogy right now, lol), just how we all interact in rhythms with each other, responding, giving and taking, advancing and retreating.  Some dances look instinctual while others are very formal, maybe even awkward to others, but they are meaningful and possibly beautiful to those performing them.  The only problem I have with dancing is when it’s not done with joy, but resentment (did a few of those in PE class, dance was not my thing, I wanted gymnastics).  If people are happy with their lifestyle choice and not bitter, not feeling trapped, who am I to say it’s limiting and they should change it?  (Referring here encouraging embarrassment or shame, to me that is different than presenting a different morality and saying I believe living this way can lead to greater joy and happiness.)
 

As LDS, we have plenty of cultural behaviors that look odd and limiting to others that many of us find deeply meaningful and most probably are quite comfortable with them (garments under our clothing are probably the most obvious one for awkward conversations in my experience).

I just have a hard time thinking of how using such a nonromantic, non expressive**** item like a pen would satisfy in even a small way the desire/need for physical contact and not simply aggravate the frustration.  For me, I would prefer avoidance.  But human communication is adaptable and perhaps it can work for some by not replacing, but making a small connection or expression of emotion, so provide some satisfaction.  And then there is the whole flirtation languages….which completely escapes me, I could never do that (thankfully my husband is also straight forward in that sense).

The variety of human behaviours fascinate me.  I currently immersing myself in historical and fantasy shows of ‘ancient times’ of China and they have the very frequently used trope of violation of the no physical contact between sexes rule that is used so much to create conflict…as in they actually have debates in emergencies that it’s better to let a person die than be touched by the opposite sex to save their life (very inconsistently applied in nonemergency situations since it’s a modern audience) because whether the victim or the saviour, the woman’s reputation will be destroyed and she will have to marry the other or be an outcast (and yet that never actually happens in the show, it is pretty much forgotten once they move on to the next crisis in the plot).  So your mention of the pen startled me a bit because it reminded me of some of the ways they depict youth bending the rules.  Drinking from the same place on a cup your love drank from is ultimate romance, but sometimes they have them each holding the end of a sash or hair ribbon between them.  I often think when watching these shows that they go overboard because the portrayal makes it look just so inconvenient (probably why they forget to keep the distance much of the time), but your example reminded me that it can and even does still happen even in places that don’t restrict women to only the family home.

Humans make their own lives so much more complicated than they need to be.  Sometimes I wonder if we are all a little insane.   
 

***I started laughing after labeling a pen non expressive, but I am comparing it to a feather or ribbon in my head…the connotation of a pen itself (as opposed to what it produces) is very mundane, blah, common, cold often and hard, nothing I really associate with emotion.

Edited Thursday at 12:28 AM by Calm

[MiserereNobis]

On 5/25/2026 at 5:44 AM, 3DOP said:

Navidad. 

This thread is bringing up old and rarely recalled memories. That first church I went to? It was nearest my house. I had picked up a friend from the other side of town one Sunday morning to go to a church. Everytime we spotted one, I would lost my nerve. After going all the back towards where I lived...I knew there weren't  any more places to go. 

The preacher had a Scofield and was studying the book of Revelation. I was interested in that through Hal Lindsay. Within a year I was with a bunch of young kids mainly from the South and Midwest who had grown up in that environment...Hyles-Anderson. I had not been in any states except on the West Coast. I came in January. This was in the Chicagoland area, after the blizzard that probably...the memories...late leaving Portland...finding a bus...and the roads...getting in around midnight...sleeping on the floor for a week...I stayed.

I am glad. It was a part of my continuing journey in and out of fringe Christianity. The pastor of that  church was what is now called a Sovereign Citizen. While I was at college he got locked up for for rolling around town with a license plate that said 1611 AV. For the rest of you, 1611 is the year of the translation of the Authorized Version, or King James Bible. He preached on the evils of insurance while I was away. Good night (that is a Hyles expression that I have retained.) There were people buying property up in the hills and building makeshift homes without permits, trying to make livings without Social Security cards but happy that they have a refuge when Antichrist takes over. He lived with his family in a school bus for a few years. Up in the hills.

I don't have regrets. Everything in my life has informed who I am now. I made my choices and many weren't what I would advise. Anyway, maybe this sheds light on my first reaction to Orthodox Christian.

Prophesy isn’t always connected with lunacy. I need to remember that. Again OC, I hope we don't run you off because of experiences. Keep your social. Get building permits, etc. I use a bank now. I don't use cash very often. So far, so 👍. 

Everybody I knew including the pastor eventually became more normal in less than ten years. But that last book of the New Testament? I will say this. It is easy to misunderstand. If it makes you crazy 🤪,  you have misunderstood something.

 

 

 

 

Could this anti-establishment attitude have anything to do with your foray into the Grateful Dead world? Those Oregon ‘93 shows were hot!