Preoccupation with the Afterlife

[Rivers]

I don't come to this board as often as I used to but there's but this subject has been on my mind a lot.  I have been paying  some attention to a couple of prominent religious Jewish thinkers.  Jews don't focus much on the afterlife.  Their view of the afterlife is quite vague compared to that of mainstream Christianity and especially Mormonism.  Jews put more emphasis on creating a moral society in the here and now.  This is a viewpoint for which I have come to have a lot of respect.  I really don't like the idea of suffering through this life while putting all your eggs the afterlife basket.  While life is always going to be hard, our goal should be creating Heaven here on earth the best we can.  I believe this is what Jesus means when he says that the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.  

This should especially be the case for gay and lesbian members of the church.  I hate for them to be in the mindset that they just need to suffer through a celibate life or mixed-orientation marriage in hopes of everything being set right in the world to come.  Nor am I saying that they all need to leave the church in order to find happiness.  I want them and everybody else to find happiness here in this life whether inside or outside the church.  I don't suffer through boring sacrament meetings so I can earn a spot in the Celestial Kingdom.  I go because I find joy in fellowship with my ward family and getting my much needed spiritual boost for the coming week.  We don't need to wait for the afterlife to be "filled with the love of God" as spoken by King Benjamin and sharing that love with others.  This is what we should all be striving for.

I'm not saying that a belief in an afterlife isn't important.  I believe an afterlife must logically exist if there is a benevolent God.  But preoccupation with the afterlife shouldn't come  at the expense of what matters here in mortality.  This is why I sometimes struggle with the church's practice of work for the dead.  Do we spend too much time thinking about the afterlife in the LDS church?

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 minutes ago, Rivers said:

Do we spend too much time thinking about the afterlife in the LDS church?

In a typical day, the thought of an afterlife literally never enters my mind once. I really don't know where you are getting this from. The whole point of 'Mormonism' is to make people happy in the here and now so that they can be happy forever:

'And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still'.

'And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy'.

'But learn that he who doeth the works of righteousness shall receive his reward, even peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come'.

Eternal life for a Latter-day Saint is just the logical continuation of having already found heaven on earth.

[Jane_Doe]

7 hours ago, Rivers said:

Do we spend too much time thinking about the afterlife in the LDS church?

Day to day, the LDS emphasis on the afterlife is VERY low.  Rather, you're going to Sacrament meetings focused on service, loving you family, having testimony of Christ, repenting here & now, etc.  Things we do now to become more like Christ.  

[Glenn101]

7 hours ago, Rivers said:

I don't come to this board as often as I used to but there's but this subject has been on my mind a lot.  I have been paying  some attention to a couple of prominent religious Jewish thinkers.  Jews don't focus much on the afterlife.  Their view of the afterlife is quite vague compared to that of mainstream Christianity and especially Mormonism.  Jews put more emphasis on creating a moral society in the here and now.  This is a viewpoint for which I have come to have a lot of respect.  I really don't like the idea of suffering through this life while putting all your eggs the afterlife basket.  While life is always going to be hard, our goal should be creating Heaven here on earth the best we can.  I believe this is what Jesus means when he says that the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.  

This should especially be the case for gay and lesbian members of the church.  I hate for them to be in the mindset that they just need to suffer through a celibate life or mixed-orientation marriage in hopes of everything being set right in the world to come.  Nor am I saying that they all need to leave the church in order to find happiness.  I want them and everybody else to find happiness here in this life whether inside or outside the church.  I don't suffer through boring sacrament meetings so I can earn a spot in the Celestial Kingdom.  I go because I find joy in fellowship with my ward family and getting my much needed spiritual boost for the coming week.  We don't need to wait for the afterlife to be "filled with the love of God" as spoken by King Benjamin and sharing that love with others.  This is what we should all be striving for.

I'm not saying that a belief in an afterlife isn't important.  I believe an afterlife must logically exist if there is a benevolent God.  But preoccupation with the afterlife shouldn't come  at the expense of what matters here in mortality.  This is why I sometimes struggle with the church's practice of work for the dead.  Do we spend too much time thinking about the afterlife in the LDS church?

 

I agree with much of what you have said except that I do not struggle with the church's practice of doing work for the dead. 

[carbon dioxide]

7 hours ago, Rivers said:

I'm not saying that a belief in an afterlife isn't important.  I believe an afterlife must logically exist if there is a benevolent God.  But preoccupation with the afterlife shouldn't come  at the expense of what matters here in mortality.  This is why I sometimes struggle with the church's practice of work for the dead.  Do we spend too much time thinking about the afterlife in the LDS church?

 

I don't think LDS are too preoccupied by the afterlife.  I think we keep things balanced.  What we do in this life does affect us in the afterlife.  So we need to focus on what we are doing now as it will affect us later.  Sort of like working people who also focus some time on planning for retirement.  One does not focus all their time on their investments, social security benefits,, and the rest while they are 40 but one does take some time out to plan for retirement. Temple work is important for us to do not only for ourselves but doing work for people who passed on who can't do it themselves.  We are helping our fellow brothers and sisters by baptisms for the dead. 

Edited July 26, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[CV75]

8 hours ago, Rivers said:

I don't come to this board as often as I used to but there's but this subject has been on my mind a lot.  I have been paying  some attention to a couple of prominent religious Jewish thinkers.  Jews don't focus much on the afterlife.  Their view of the afterlife is quite vague compared to that of mainstream Christianity and especially Mormonism.  Jews put more emphasis on creating a moral society in the here and now.  This is a viewpoint for which I have come to have a lot of respect.  I really don't like the idea of suffering through this life while putting all your eggs the afterlife basket.  While life is always going to be hard, our goal should be creating Heaven here on earth the best we can.  I believe this is what Jesus means when he says that the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.  

This should especially be the case for gay and lesbian members of the church.  I hate for them to be in the mindset that they just need to suffer through a celibate life or mixed-orientation marriage in hopes of everything being set right in the world to come.  Nor am I saying that they all need to leave the church in order to find happiness.  I want them and everybody else to find happiness here in this life whether inside or outside the church.  I don't suffer through boring sacrament meetings so I can earn a spot in the Celestial Kingdom.  I go because I find joy in fellowship with my ward family and getting my much needed spiritual boost for the coming week.  We don't need to wait for the afterlife to be "filled with the love of God" as spoken by King Benjamin and sharing that love with others.  This is what we should all be striving for.

I'm not saying that a belief in an afterlife isn't important.  I believe an afterlife must logically exist if there is a benevolent God.  But preoccupation with the afterlife shouldn't come  at the expense of what matters here in mortality.  This is why I sometimes struggle with the church's practice of work for the dead.  Do we spend too much time thinking about the afterlife in the LDS church?

 

It's really one life as far as God is concerned, and the more we can integrate the stages (estates) the more godly, godlike and happy we will be. So we prepare to bring spirits into the world, facilitate their rebirth while in the world (on both sides of the veil), and prepare to bring spirits into God's world.

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, Rivers said:

I don't come to this board as often as I used to but there's but this subject has been on my mind a lot.  I have been paying  some attention to a couple of prominent religious Jewish thinkers.  Jews don't focus much on the afterlife.  Their view of the afterlife is quite vague compared to that of mainstream Christianity and especially Mormonism.  Jews put more emphasis on creating a moral society in the here and now.  This is a viewpoint for which I have come to have a lot of respect.  I really don't like the idea of suffering through this life while putting all your eggs the afterlife basket.  While life is always going to be hard, our goal should be creating Heaven here on earth the best we can.  I believe this is what Jesus means when he says that the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.  

This should especially be the case for gay and lesbian members of the church.  I hate for them to be in the mindset that they just need to suffer through a celibate life or mixed-orientation marriage in hopes of everything being set right in the world to come.  Nor am I saying that they all need to leave the church in order to find happiness.  I want them and everybody else to find happiness here in this life whether inside or outside the church.  I don't suffer through boring sacrament meetings so I can earn a spot in the Celestial Kingdom.  I go because I find joy in fellowship with my ward family and getting my much needed spiritual boost for the coming week.  We don't need to wait for the afterlife to be "filled with the love of God" as spoken by King Benjamin and sharing that love with others.  This is what we should all be striving for.

I'm not saying that a belief in an afterlife isn't important.  I believe an afterlife must logically exist if there is a benevolent God.  But preoccupation with the afterlife shouldn't come  at the expense of what matters here in mortality.  This is why I sometimes struggle with the church's practice of work for the dead.  Do we spend too much time thinking about the afterlife in the LDS church?

 

Then become a Pragmatist AND a Mormon.

Pragmatism teachers that religious beliefs are true when they provide comfort and direction in this life.

Since we have no certainty, usually, about the afterlife, if you live a good life here the after life is just gravy.

And while picking a paradigm of what would give you the greatest joy in the afterlife why not make it becoming like God if you do your very best here?

That guarantees that you are doing your best here to become the most perfect human you can be and hoping for greater growth later.

Is there a better Paradigm available to mankind?

Know anybody that believes that?

Edited July 26, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, Rivers said:

This is why I sometimes struggle with the church's practice of work for the dead.  Do we spend too much time thinking about the afterlife in the LDS church?

The reason I do family history is because of the knowledge it gives me of who I am and where I am from. I look at the stories of my ancestors and it gives me a knowledge that one of my parents Generations back actually live through many of the trials and I'm experiencing now.

I think in terms that her genes are within me. If she was able to do it then I can do it too. After all she was my grandma, even if she was 10 Generations back.

Family history for us fills the role that Saints do for Catholics.

Catholics view Saints as we might think of exalted ancestors, people to whom we can relate who had problems just as we do.

They take that much farther of course to the point of nearly worshiping those people.

But my point is simply that family history has a lot of pragmatic lessons that we can learn and use today. It's not completely about the afterlife at all for me.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

I don't think LDS are too preoccupied by the afterlife.  I think we keep things balanced.  What we do in this life does affect us in the afterlife.  So we need to focus on what we are doing now as it will affect us later.  Sort of like working people who also focus some time on planning for retirement.  One does not focus all their time on their investments, social security benefits,, and the rest while they are 40 but one does take some time out to plan for retirement. Temple work is important for us to do not only for ourselves but doing work for people who passed on who can't do it themselves.  We are helping our fellow brothers and sisters by baptisms for the dead. 

And of course the Commandment is "to turn our hearts". For me that is the real benefit. 

If we are not turning our hearts and learning something about those people we are getting far less benefit in this life from this teaching than we might.

Edited July 26, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Rivers]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Then become a Pragmatist AND a Mormon.

Pragmatism teachers that religious beliefs are true when they provide comfort and direction in this life.

Since we have no certainty, usually, about the afterlife, if you live a good life here the after life is just gravy.

And while picking a paradigm of what would give you the greatest joy in the afterlife why not make it becoming like God if you do your very best here?

That guarantees that you are doing your best here to become the most perfect human you can be and hoping for greater growth later.

Is there a better Paradigm available to mankind?

Know anybody that believes that?

I guess I must be a pragmatist.

[The Nehor]

If I did not believe things would ultimately get better I would be out of the Church very quickly. This may change if I ever start having a happier life I suppose.

[Jeanne]

I apologize in advance that my comments and questions do not pertain to the direct subject of the OP.  I was just wondering as it has been said many times in sudden deaths in my own family and friends...that when something happens suddenly that the spirit gets to a place where they can make a choice.  A choice whether to return to the mortal sphere or to stay.  This was said about my mom...so I am asking if anyone here has had an experience like that.  Thanks!

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I apologize in advance that my comments and questions do not pertain to the direct subject of the OP.  I was just wondering as it has been said many times in sudden deaths in my own family and friends...that when something happens suddenly that the spirit gets to a place where they can make a choice.  A choice whether to return to the mortal sphere or to stay.  This was said about my mom...so I am asking if anyone here has had an experience like that.  Thanks!

I have heard this said a few times where someone received this offer and accepted the opportunity to return. I suspect it is not universal. I have never heard a report of anyone getting this offer and rejecting it but there are obvious reasons for that.

[BonhoefferFan]

On 7/26/2018 at 7:54 PM, mfbukowski said:

Then become a Pragmatist AND a Mormon.

Not bad advice. 

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, BonhoefferFan said:

Not bad advice. 

Holy cow.

Bonhoeffer? Are you LDS?

That's kind of the direction I am headed.

[Exiled]

I think preoccupation with the afterlife cannot be diminshed too much from the brethren's perspective. Otherwise, the reason for church would diminish. For me, when I became sure enough that views of the afterlife were merely religious speculation not based on anything other than a desire to believe in whatever, my interest in attending church went to close to zero. Church can be monotonous at times and why go unless there is some real reward at the end of the day?

[clarkgoble]

I confess what always seemed unique to Mormonism was the blurring of the distinction between life and afterlife. There was no "magic" that just transforms you as in some forms of Protestantism. If you're like something here, you'll be like that there. So overcoming bad habits and learning just has to be done with no shortcut provided by death. If anything I think Mormons go a bit too far that direction, downplaying the effects of genetics a tad too much in all this.

As I see it Mormons teach that you have to make heaven. You don't just get taken there.

[clarkgoble]

On 7/26/2018 at 11:54 AM, mfbukowski said:

Then become a Pragmatist AND a Mormon.

But what kind of pragmatist? 

On 7/26/2018 at 11:54 AM, mfbukowski said:

Pragmatism teachers that religious beliefs are true when they provide comfort and direction in this life.

Well William James' variety does anyway. Peirce on the other hand...

[mfbukowski]

44 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

But what kind of pragmatist? 

Well William James' variety does anyway. Peirce on the other hand...

....has no understanding of spiritual experience whatsoever.  😜 

I belong to the one true church of Dewey and James, and then Wittgenstein and the boys, James' apostles.

Stand clear.

Lightening strikes coming! 

 

Edited July 28, 2018 by mfbukowski

[clarkgoble]

That’s not really true. His neglected argument for god rests on such experience. He’s an odd mixture of Christian and a near Buddhist understanding. But the issue is the meaning of truth.

[BonhoefferFan]

On 7/28/2018 at 5:49 PM, mfbukowski said:

Holy cow.

Bonhoeffer? Are you LDS?

That's kind of the direction I am headed.

Yes, I am. 

It is worth noting that going back to the OP and a Jewish understanding of life, the LDS Church has one of the only theologies that allows for the actual creation of Heaven on Earth (City of Enoch) which would normally push towards a concept of social justice and related endeavors.  I think pursuing such activity, making the world a better place, is more in line with my investment in faith than a concern with an afterlife. 

[mfbukowski]

15 minutes ago, BonhoefferFan said:

Yes, I am. 

It is worth noting that going back to the OP and a Jewish understanding of life, the LDS Church has one of the only theologies that allows for the actual creation of Heaven on Earth (City of Enoch) which would normally push towards a concept of social justice and related endeavors.  I think pursuing such activity, making the world a better place, is more in line with my investment in faith than a concern with an afterlife. 

Totally agree, and on the other hand, that attitude could help us communicate better with some of the new "secular religions". For me the afterlife is just "gravy" for serving others and living well here.

If God is a Human Man, humanism becomes theology  

Edited July 29, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

7 hours ago, BonhoefferFan said:

Yes, I am. 

It is worth noting that going back to the OP and a Jewish understanding of life, the LDS Church has one of the only theologies that allows for the actual creation of Heaven on Earth (City of Enoch) which would normally push towards a concept of social justice and related endeavors.  I think pursuing such activity, making the world a better place, is more in line with my investment in faith than a concern with an afterlife. 

( since I can't give you rep points yet)

[BonhoefferFan]

23 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Totally agree, and on the other hand, that attitude could help us communicate better with some of the new "secular religions". For me the afterlife is just "gravy" for serving others and living well here. 

If God is a Human Man, humanism becomes theology   

I think it can help us communicate with older "religious" religions.  I am currently a Divinity School Student (mainstream Protestant School) and I am going hoping to get into non-profit work.  I was never a missionary, and never really interested in proselytizing.  I love the Gospel and love the Church, but I am as content to simply let people be people.  If someone is interested, I will talk to them, but if they are happy being Episcopalian, I am just as content to help them be the best Episcopalian they can be. 

But at the end of the day, correcting social problems is a far more useful exercise of the Gospel than any proselytizing I could do. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, BonhoefferFan said:

I think it can help us communicate with older "religious" religions.  I am currently a Divinity School Student (mainstream Protestant School) and I am going hoping to get into non-profit work.  I was never a missionary, and never really interested in proselytizing.  I love the Gospel and love the Church, but I am as content to simply let people be people.  If someone is interested, I will talk to them, but if they are happy being Episcopalian, I am just as content to help them be the best Episcopalian they can be. 

But at the end of the day, correcting social problems is a far more useful exercise of the Gospel than any proselytizing I could do. 

I tend to agree.

I think the biggest issue for those into Social Gospel is theism. 

Direct experience confirms to me that there is Someone out there, who knows me and has my interest at heart.

If we could get people to accept that and the social gospel I think we would be 80% there.

The other problem as I see it is balancing between individual freedom and the social gospel. 

In my way of seeing it, creating our own worlds even as we live here mirrors what God is said to do, so yes I agree to allow people to take whatever path they need to progress. I think God leads us to the path we need to take even if it's a temporary path on the way to another one.

But we need to be able to follow his direction when we receive it and recognize it.

So the balance between agency and the social unit becomes crucial.