Preoccupation with the Afterlife

[Meerkat]

On 7/26/2018 at 10:54 AM, mfbukowski said:

Then become a Pragmatist AND a Mormon.

Pragmatism teachers that religious beliefs are true when they provide comfort and direction in this life.

Since we have no certainty, usually, about the afterlife, if you live a good life here the after life is just gravy.

And while picking a paradigm of what would give you the greatest joy in the afterlife why not make it becoming like God if you do your very best here?

That guarantees that you are doing your best here to become the most perfect human you can be and hoping for greater growth later.

Is there a better Paradigm available to mankind?

Know anybody that believes that?

I know how my perceptions changed through Christ.  Terrible operation recoveries became reasons for gratitude for what He was willing to suffer for me.  Watching two beloved family members endure the destruction and revovery from addiction is teaching me charity, patience and the healing power of Christ's Atonement in my life (healing from the grief, concern, confusion about how this could happen,) and theirs through watching them learn and progress, as am I and my beloved wife.  God, knowing the end from the beginning, sent them into our loving home.  We have learned things about the Savior's Atonement that I don't believe we would have learned in any other way.  And I praise the Lord for it.

There are certain things that are true that make other critical things true.  First and foremost is Jesus Christ's life, teachings and sacrifice for us all.  I have embraced it all with joy.  Second is the eternal nature of my relationship with my wife. As non members we had the pastor write the words "till death do us part" out of our wedding ceremony.  It was a deep personal revelation that idea was offensive to us and to God.  We were so in love.  When we found the Church on our honeymoon, Eternal Marriage was one pillar in our testimony it is true.  And third is that the Book of Mormon is true.  Those three things are foundational in my life.

Struggling through recessions, businesses, raising a family, Church service and the physical challenges that come with aging, I have become an eternal pragmatist through these experiences.  There are certain things I know and own that no one can take from me.  One is that I am the son of my ancestors.  I feel their thoughts going through my mind.  I see their expressions on my face.  I feel their love, their cheerfulness, their hopes for me, their hopes for themselves.  I feel their help for my family working beyond the veil.  I feel their desperate pleading from beyond the veil "Don't forget me.  Don't forget Uncle Wes.  Although I died at age 30 from devastating arthritis, I am better now.  And Wes is here.  Please help us.  We feel just like you do about each other."  When we attended the Temple to do their work after years of searching for Wes, we felt great joy.  My wife said "I don't think I'm feeling my joy.  I'm feeling theirs."

My young ministry companion runs every day during the school year, and three times per week in the summer.  He is in great physical shape-- spiritually too.  I believe that in what some call this veil of tears, and it is at times such a place, we are lifting spiritual weights.  We are becoming more fit for His Kingdom.  We are learning great lessons that are preparing us for what we need to know over yonder.  The beautiful part of this life now is that signs do follow them that believe.  Do the thing.  Know the doctrine.  Do the sacred Temple work for Your kindred dead.  Experience increased energy, at least that is my experience.  Experience miraculous answered prayers. Experience connection from beyond the veil.  Experience frequent signs from above strengthening faith and purpose.  Experience lessons we will be teaching others in eternity.  Mankind truly is that they might have joy.

"Lives of great men all remind us We can make our lives sublime.  And, departing, leave behind us footprints in the sands of time.  Footprints that perhaps another, sailing o'er life's solemn main, A forlorn and shipwrecked brother, Seeing may take heart again.  Let us then be up and doing With a heart to any fate.  Still achieving, still pursuing.  Learn to labor, and to wait."

From A Psalm of Life by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow.

Preoccupation with the Afterlife is a great subject.  Preparation for the Afterlife is what this life is for, in my opinion.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I know how my perceptions changed through Christ.  Terrible operation recoveries became reasons for gratitude for what He was willing to suffer for me.  Watching two beloved family members endure the destruction and revovery from addiction is teaching me charity, patience and the healing power of Christ's Atonement in my life (healing from the grief, concern, confusion about how this could happen,) and theirs through watching them learn and progress, as am I and my beloved wife.  God, knowing the end from the beginning, sent them into our loving home.  We have learned things about the Savior's Atonement that I don't believe we would have learned in any other way.  And I praise the Lord for it.

There are certain things that are true that make other critical things true.  First and foremost is Jesus Christ's life, teachings and sacrifice for us all.  I have embraced it all with joy.  Second is the eternal nature of my relationship with my wife. As non members we had the pastor write the words "till death do us part" out of our wedding ceremony.  It was a deep personal revelation that idea was offensive to us and to God.  We were so in love.  When we found the Church on our honeymoon, Eternal Marriage was one pillar in our testimony it is true.  And third is that the Book of Mormon is true.  Those three things are foundational in my life.

Struggling through recessions, businesses, raising a family, Church service and the physical challenges that come with aging, I have become an eternal pragmatist through these experiences.  There are certain things I know and own that no one can take from me.  One is that I am the son of my ancestors.  I feel their thoughts going through my mind.  I see their expressions on my face.  I feel their love, their cheerfulness, their hopes for me, their hopes for themselves.  I feel their help for my family working beyond the veil.  I feel their desperate pleading from beyond the veil "Don't forget me.  Don't forget Uncle Wes.  Although I died at age 30 from devastating arthritis, I am better now.  And Wes is here.  Please help us.  We feel just like you do about each other."  When we attended the Temple to do their work after years of searching for Wes, we felt great joy.  My wife said "I don't think I'm feeling my joy.  I'm feeling theirs."

My young ministry companion runs every day during the school year, and three times per week in the summer.  He is in great physical shape-- spiritually too.  I believe that in what some call this veil of tears, and it is at times such a place, we are lifting spiritual weights.  We are becoming more fit for His Kingdom.  We are learning great lessons that are preparing us for what we need to know over yonder.  The beautiful part of this life now is that signs do follow them that believe.  Do the thing.  Know the doctrine.  Do the sacred Temple work for Your kindred dead.  Experience increased energy, at least that is my experience.  Experience miraculous answered prayers. Experience connection from beyond the veil.  Experience frequent signs from above strengthening faith and purpose.  Experience lessons we will be teaching others in eternity.  Mankind truly is that they might have joy.

"Lives of great men all remind us We can make our lives sublime.  And, departing, leave behind us footprints in the sands of time.  Footprints that perhaps another, sailing o'er life's solemn main, A forlorn and shipwrecked brother, Seeing may take heart again.  Let us then be up and doing With a heart to any fate.  Still achieving, still pursuing.  Learn to labor, and to wait."

From A Psalm of Life by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow.

Preoccupation with the Afterlife is a great subject.  Preparation for the Afterlife is what this life is for, in my opinion.

Beautiful post! Thank you!

[cinepro]

On 7/26/2018 at 12:48 AM, Rivers said:

I'm not saying that a belief in an afterlife isn't important.  I believe an afterlife must logically exist if there is a benevolent God.  But preoccupation with the afterlife shouldn't come  at the expense of what matters here in mortality.  This is why I sometimes struggle with the church's practice of work for the dead.  Do we spend too much time thinking about the afterlife in the LDS church?

 

It might be just me, but I've become more and more aware of the imbalance between emphasis on serving dead people (i.e. the Temple) and emphasis on serving living people (i.e. serving in the community) over the years.  My ward does a few service activities each year (Christmas food drive, food shelter sign ups at the end of the year, day of service in the spring, Eagle Scout projects), but it's nothing compared to the emphasis on going to the Temple. 

Honestly, it kind of feels like a missed opportunity.  I wonder what would happen if a certain amount of care for the poor or other community service became part of the requirements for a Temple Recommend?

Edited August 1, 2018 by cinepro

[Meerkat]

5 hours ago, cinepro said:

It might be just me, but I've become more and more aware of the imbalance between emphasis on serving dead people (i.e. the Temple) and emphasis on serving living people (i.e. serving in the community) over the years.  My ward does a few service activities each year (Christmas food drive, food shelter sign ups at the end of the year, day of service in the spring, Eagle Scout projects), but it's nothing compared to the emphasis on going to the Temple. 

Honestly, it kind of feels like a missed opportunity.  I wonder what would happen if a certain amount of care for the poor or other community service became part of the requirements for a Temple Recommend?

I don't follow you here, Cinepro. Members of the church do much good in the world that isn't reported. Occasionally you may hear of the yellow shirts helping in a disaster. But the church is moving away from micromanaging its members. The new emphasis on ministering has a completely different flavor from requiring people to do what they want to do anyway. The Church no longer measures Temple attendance or home teaching in the way it used to. I like it much better. I like Joseph Smith's statement "I teach people correct principles, and let them govern themselves!"

Edited August 1, 2018 by Meerkat

[cinepro]

3 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I don't follow you here, Cinepro. Members of the church do much good in the world that isn't reported. Occasionally you may hear of the yellow shirts helping in a disaster. But the church is moving away from micromanaging its members. The new emphasis on ministering has a completely different flavor from requiring people to do what they want to do anyway. The Church no longer measures Temple attendance or home teaching in the way it used to. I like it much better. I like Joseph Smith's statement quote I teach people correct principles, and let them govern themselves!"

For the next six months, try this experiment.  Keep track of how many times you hear about "going to the Temple" (whether a specific trip or activity, or general encouragement or discussion) at Church, and how many times you hear about "helping the poor in our community" (whether a specific activity or project,  or general encouragement).

Six months from now, tell me which one the Church thinks is more important, and to what degree.

Edited August 1, 2018 by cinepro

[Calm]

4 hours ago, cinepro said:

It might be just me, but I've become more and more aware of the imbalance between emphasis on serving dead people (i.e. the Temple) and emphasis on serving living people (i.e. serving in the community) over the years.  My ward does a few service activities each year (Christmas food drive, food shelter sign ups at the end of the year, day of service in the spring, Eagle Scout projects), but it's nothing compared to the emphasis on going to the Temple. 

Honestly, it kind of feels like a missed opportunity.  I wonder what would happen if a certain amount of care for the poor or other community service became part of the requirements for a Temple Recommend?

May be ward differences....my current ward does constant living service projects, but also does temple work.  Often it is presented as a way to develop greater personal understanding of the temple and not just the service aspect.

I do think it is very important to develop good habits of serving the living, I gave been in wards I think did fantastic jobs and wards I have been very dissapointed in from what I knew (but also realize I was not locked into everything so could have been unaware).  I think it may be easier to emphasize temple work because you don't really have to do much figuring out of logistics or searching for ideas.  It is a more or less ready made service project.  When leaders have limited time or feel awkward about asking people if they would like help, I can see why they might fall into templework as a routine.

The change in ministering is putting an even stronger focus on serving the community in my ward.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Calm

[Meerkat]

52 minutes ago, cinepro said:

For the next six months, try this experiment.  Keep track of how many times you hear about "going to the Temple" (whether a specific trip or activity, or general encouragement or discussion) at Church, and how many times you hear about "helping the poor in our community" (whether a specific activity or project,  or general encouragement).

Six months from now, tell me which one the Church thinks is more important, and to what degree.

It's easy to forget about the dead.  We are dotting the earth with Temples.  Next time you attend the Temple, look around and see how much Temple work is being accomplished.  Regarding helping the poor in our area, the church promotes the pathways program and also has self-reliance seminars that are open to the community to help people provide better for themselves. The church provides addiction recovery service for addicts and a separate one for family members. All those services are offered at no or low cost to the community. If you look at your contributions form at church or online, there used to be a section for contributing to Temple Patron fund and Perpetual education fund that have been removed because the funds have grown so large that they are now self-funding, thanks to the generosity of the members. The only area that I see is underserved in the church right now is Temple service. Yesterday our Quorum president send out a blast email requesting someone to go and administer a blessing to a brother who is in the hospital. The work was done. The church is very organized to take care of community emergencies. We had a flood in our area, and the stake president ask everyone after sacrament meeting to go home, put on their work clothes and go down to a local trailer park to clean out the mud and the debris. The Church is very organized to help people when there is a need. If you knew that there was someone in need that you were assigned to minister to, you would help them wouldn't you? Or you would get the help for them.   If you had a neighbor who was in need, you would help them wouldn't you? What are your priorities? Sounds like you spend too much time in the temple, and you are feeling an obligation to do more in the community. Lord bless you. More power to you. In my life and in our area, I feel the church's emphasis is right on the mark.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Meerkat

[Nofear]

8 hours ago, cinepro said:

It might be just me, but I've become more and more aware of the imbalance between emphasis on serving dead people (i.e. the Temple) and emphasis on serving living people (i.e. serving in the community) over the years.  My ward does a few service activities each year (Christmas food drive, food shelter sign ups at the end of the year, day of service in the spring, Eagle Scout projects), but it's nothing compared to the emphasis on going to the Temple. 

Honestly, it kind of feels like a missed opportunity.  I wonder what would happen if a certain amount of care for the poor or other community service became part of the requirements for a Temple Recommend?

Those that advocate frequent temple attendance do so, probably, on the belief that attending the temple serves and benefit those individuals going to the temple. That and other potential less tangible benefits to others the patrons associate with (e.g. prayer roll, the patron becoming a better person and hence more loving to those around them, receiving inspiration).

 

Edit: can ignore (of course). Seems several others already said variations of the same thing.

Edited August 2, 2018 by Nofear

[Kenngo1969]

Sigh.  I hate to come on here to wine-and-moan, but, Rivers, you asked.

I'm not necessarily inordinately preoccupied with the afterlife at the expense of doing what I can in this one to make things as good as I can make them for whomever comes into both my circle of influence and my circle of concern (Hello, Stephen R. Covey! ).  I can tell you, though, that it seems like the second of those two circles is way smaller than the first, but if someone wishes to point out a need that I can fulfill (particularly one which, somehow, I am nearly uniquely suited to fill or am among a relatively-select group which is so situated, but, he!!, I'm not even that picky), s/he's welcome to do so, and I will be happy to help.

Most days, it seems like the most I can do is get to work.  Once I get to work, I'm OK: It's not a bad job; I would have liked it out of high school, or after I got my associates degree, or maybe even after I got my bachelors degree ... but after I got my law degree?   I don't even really like my days off unless I can find an excuse to not howl at the walls: sometimes I can, sometimes I can't.  Honestly, as mind-numbingly, soul-crushingly boring as my job is, it's a relief to be able to go back to work, because, at least there, I know what's expected of me: It ain't a lot, and I'd like a job where that isn't necessarily true, but I ain't holdin' my breath. 

The thing is, I work for a contractor, and this campaign is ending in our office.  ("Yes, you've spent three years working for Company [A]!  You weren't supposed to develop any brand loyalty toward Company [A] despite answering dozens or scores of thousands of phone calls in Company [A]'s name, however, because we are a contractor!"  The thing is, I don't know how that's possible unless Company [A] is among the worst corporate citizens on the planet, and especially since, periodically, Company [A]'s representatives would visit and pull us off the phones to remind us how great Company [A] is.  So, perhaps, once I'm transitioned, kicking and screaming (I've told the powers-that-be that I'm in no hurry) to my new role, I'll develop equal brand loyalty to Company [B ] , but, don't hold your breath.  Yes, Company 's pay and incentives are better, and yes, the mind-numbing, soul-crushing boredom will end (at least for a while), but so will the knowing-what's-expected-of-me, and candidly, I ain't ready for that.

I got my bachelors degree 23 years ago, looked for a related job and ... got a non-benefitted, non-guaranteed-hours, on-call job answering phones for my local sheriff's office for a couple months; then got a job answering phones (technically, we were making the calls, not taking them, but a machine obviated the difference) for a family film company for a few months (which has since faced tens of millions of dollars in FTC sanctions, allegedly for violating the federal do-not-call registry; I haven't heard the latest on that ); then got a job answering phones for a major package delivery company for not quite 2 1/2 years, had a nervous breakdown ...  at the risk of oversimplifying, my core issue was that, although it seems to be the only thing anyone will hire me for, I really don't want to answer phones; then quit that without exactly knowing my next move, then, eventually, got a job as a parking enforcement officer ... I loved it; it beat being cooped up in a cubicle and tethered to a phone all day, every day to smithereens ... but I was only able to keep it for a few months, then eventually swallowed an enormous amount of fear and self-doubt and ... applied to law school!

Yeah!  That was the perfect solution!  I never completely got over the fear and self-doubt, which was magnified manifold by constantly being in rooms-ful of people, all of whom were smarter than I am, who got it more easily than I did, and oh, by the way, "Even if, by some miracle (and that's exactly what it would be), you do manage to finish, you'll never get a job!  You think classes are dog-eat-dog?  Careers are even worse!"  I lost my nerve, withdrew, and ... got a job answering phones for a major credit-card company, deciding that as unsure as I was about my prospects for success in and after law school, the one  thing I knew is that I really didn't want to answer phones.

I didn't handle law school well.  I made a few enemies, all of whom were more than happy to come back and tell the Bar why I shouldn't be admitted ... and I wasn't.  OK, what do I do now?    Spent ten years trying to live down my past, trying to rehabilitate myself, et cetera.  Shortly after not being admitted, I sought a psych eval.  I was candid with the evaluator about my prior sins and misdeeds: However I might have been mistreated (and, in certain respects, I was), still, I recognized the brutal fact that I was the one who was most responsible for my plight.  He concluded that my diagnosis was in "sustained full remission" 

After the ten years trying to live down my past and to rehabilitate myself, I sought another evaluation.  Despite the fact that, ironically, the lion's share of that rehabilitation occurred since the initial, comparatively more positive evaluation, this Idiot Evaluator concluded I might have a personality disorder (he didn't rule it out, as the first evaluator had), and, apparently, that I hadn't done enough to rehabilitate myself.  I sued him for malpractice, but, apparently, it's not malpractice to misquote someone in a diagnostic interview, because he did, and he got away with it; apparently, it's not malpractice to quote someone out of context in a diagnostic interview, because he did, and he got away with it; apparently, it's not malpractice essentially to ignore more than fifty pages of documentation describing earnest attempts at rehabilitation, because he did, and he got away with it.

Shortly before filing a Notice of Intent to Commence a Malpractice Action against him with the Division of Occupational Licensing, I got a job ... answering phones ... but, hey, this time, it was with a law firm!  PROGRESS!   Got saddled with a Supervisor From Hell, upon whom I bestowed the well-deserved-if-derisive-sobriquet, She-Who-Could-Not-Possibly-Be-Pleased-But-Who-Still-Must-Be-Obeyed.  She wanted to give me a written reprimand, because, as I said, She-Could-Not-Possibly-Be-Pleased-Yet-Still-Must-Be-Obeyed.  I said, "To he!! with that!", saw the writing on the wall, and quit.

Saw that another company was having a hiring event at Workforce Services in Provo.  Thought, "Well, OK, I'll gin up a resume, get gussied up, and go do the Dog-and-Pony-Show thing."  Got the date wrong, so nobody from that company (I don't even remember what company it was) was there, but someone from my current employer was there.  And the last three years, as they say, is history.

I've come full-circle, and it's been a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiig circle: I suppose I should be grateful even to have a job, and I am.  If I absolutely, positively, have to answer phones, this is the place to do it (but for Company [A], not necessarily for Company ) ... I skimmed my patriarchal blessing the other day: My thought was, "Well, thank God for the Millennium," because that's the only time I can see most of it being fulfilled.

I'm not going to do anything drastic, though I won't deny that the frequent-if-fleeting thought isn't very appealing in some ways.  But to quote the great Jack Nicholson as Melvin Udall, who uttered the line from which the movie's title is taken, I have to ask, "What if this is as good as it gets?"  If this is as good as it gets, I hope I can be forgiven allegedly for being "inordinately preoccupied" with the next life, because this one sure as he!! ain't workin' out all that well.  And again, I'm not going to do anything drastic, but if I got a terminal diagnosis tomorrow ...

Edited August 4, 2018 by Kenngo1969

[Meerkat]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I'm not going to do anything drastic, though I won't deny that the frequent-if-fleeting thought isn't very appealing in some ways.  But to quote the great Jack Nicholson as Melvin Udall, who uttered the line from which the movie's title is taken, I have to ask, "What if this is as good as it gets?"  If this is as good as it gets, I hope I can be forgiven allegedly for being "inordinately preoccupied" with the next life, because this one sure as he!! ain't workin' out all that well.  And again, I'm not going to do anything drastic, but if I got a terminal diagnosis tomorrow ...

I loved your piece here.  Very descriptive and insightful.  There is so much to learn in this life.  It's hard to be patient, especially when we try to follow all the formulas for success.  But what if one object is to learn patience?  What if another object is to learn how to understand and forgive obnoxious people (bosses, associates, well meaning (or not) family members, friends, counsellors, authors of self help books, etc.)  What if another object is to learn how to be honest, or kind to those who despitefully use and persecute us.  What if another object is to learn to be kind to ourselves when we persecute ourselves?  Reading your other posts, I believe you are a philosophical man.  I believe we all have to reach some kind of philosophical accomodation with life so that our time here makes acceptable sense in the big picture, and generates some joy in our lives.  The scriptures help me with that, as do the great thoughts of the Stoics, some poets and other philosophers.  I enjoy thinking about things that bring a lot of joy and purpose to my life.  You are a thinker.  Did you ever think about writing?  It's very therapeutic, and can help other people sort out their lives.

Kenngo, you strike me as a positive and uplifting person all the time, even in this vulnerable piece.  Your sense of humor is spot on. There are some wonderful gems in this forum, and you are one of them.  

Probably the best and most helpful insight I have found is from a meeting I attend every week.  It is a prayer:

Serenity Prayer

- Reinhold Niebuhr (1892-1971)

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change; 
courage to change the things I can; 
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time; 
enjoying one moment at a time; 
accepting hardships as the pathway to peace; 
taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it; 
trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will; 
that I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
forever in the next.

There us a lot of wisdom there, and hope.  Like you, my preoccupation is the supreme happiness I expect to find in the next life.  This life, and our decisions are important so we can put the odds in our favor before it's our time to go.  🙄

[Bane]

To me, the afterlife is the only thing that it's all about.  It's the only thing that makes any of it worthwhile.

I know that my first wife waits for me in the Spirit World.  I look forward to being reunited with her.

[CV75]

On 7/26/2018 at 3:48 AM, Rivers said:

I don't come to this board as often as I used to but there's but this subject has been on my mind a lot.  I have been paying  some attention to a couple of prominent religious Jewish thinkers.  Jews don't focus much on the afterlife.  Their view of the afterlife is quite vague compared to that of mainstream Christianity and especially Mormonism.  Jews put more emphasis on creating a moral society in the here and now.  This is a viewpoint for which I have come to have a lot of respect.  I really don't like the idea of suffering through this life while putting all your eggs the afterlife basket.  While life is always going to be hard, our goal should be creating Heaven here on earth the best we can.  I believe this is what Jesus means when he says that the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.  

This should especially be the case for gay and lesbian members of the church.  I hate for them to be in the mindset that they just need to suffer through a celibate life or mixed-orientation marriage in hopes of everything being set right in the world to come.  Nor am I saying that they all need to leave the church in order to find happiness.  I want them and everybody else to find happiness here in this life whether inside or outside the church.  I don't suffer through boring sacrament meetings so I can earn a spot in the Celestial Kingdom.  I go because I find joy in fellowship with my ward family and getting my much needed spiritual boost for the coming week.  We don't need to wait for the afterlife to be "filled with the love of God" as spoken by King Benjamin and sharing that love with others.  This is what we should all be striving for.

I'm not saying that a belief in an afterlife isn't important.  I believe an afterlife must logically exist if there is a benevolent God.  But preoccupation with the afterlife shouldn't come  at the expense of what matters here in mortality.  This is why I sometimes struggle with the church's practice of work for the dead.  Do we spend too much time thinking about the afterlife in the LDS church?

As you pointed out, it's all one life. The plan of salvation is laid out and taught in a way that emphasizes certain things are done to maximize our happiness within the period in which we are living. For example, work for the dead is one way to find happiness; for the living that work is done on this side of the veil, and for the dead it is done on that side.  I don't think the Spirit pushes us into preoccupation and imbalance on any aspect of the plan.

[Kate]

On 7/26/2018 at 9:29 AM, CV75 said:

It's really one life as far as God is concerned, and the more we can integrate the stages (estates) the more godly, godlike and happy we will be. So we prepare to bring spirits into the world, facilitate their rebirth while in the world (on both sides of the veil), and prepare to bring spirits into God's world.

That ☝️Is excellent!