Upcoming LDS seminary building on HS campus brings mixed reactions

[JAHS]

Upcoming LDS seminary building on Cienega HS campus brings mixed reactions

The Church wants to have a seminary building on a high school campus but residents are concerned that such a religious bulding should not be build on school property.
"
Many Vail neighbors say they're concerned about the separation of church and state with the seminary being on campus. Vail Unified School District's director of communications, Darcy Mentone, says it's the students' choice to participate.

The Vail School District would be allowing religious classes to be taught on a public school campus by unvetted persons during the school instructional day. 

In the 1948 case McCollum v. Board of Education [oyez.org], the court established that religious groups CANNOT teach religious classes inside public schools. In 1952 Supreme Court ruled in Zorach vs. Clauson that release time for religious instruction did not violate the constitution as long as the classes were held OFF of the school site. Our Arizona Revised Statutes echos this sentiment by stating in ARS 15-806 that “Any religious instruction or exercise takes place at a suitable place away from school property.”

This building, wanting to be built on tax payer funded school property, which according to Darcy Mentone has been in the works for thirteen years, yet VUSD parents and community members were never informed of this until March 11th, 2025 during a school board meeting, when most parents were not in town as it was held during spring break for the district, will violate the law if used during instruction time to teach religion."

__________________________
Has there been any other situations where a seminary building was located on school property?

Edited March 29, 2025 by JAHS

[webbles]

I don't know if the seminary building for the Pine View High School in St. George is on school property or not, but it sure looks like it is.  The parking lot for the school surrounds it completely.

For the Cienega HS but it seems like the church is actually donating the building to the school.  And then they will rent it for 10 years.  I wonder if that somehow changes the legalities.  One of the school spokesperson said something about it being a club or similar to a club, which doesn't sound right.

[Rain]

13 hours ago, webbles said:

I don't know if the seminary building for the Pine View High School in St. George is on school property or not, but it sure looks like it is.  The parking lot for the school surrounds it completely.

For the Cienega HS but it seems like the church is actually donating the building to the school.  And then they will rent it for 10 years.  I wonder if that somehow changes the legalities.  One of the school spokesperson said something about it being a club or similar to a club, which doesn't sound right.

I know of several seminaries that look like they are on high school property, but are not - including both my junior and senior high schools.  Sometimes it can be hard to tell.

Edited March 29, 2025 by Rain

[blackstrap]

If the Church donates the building to the school, then not only are religious classes being taught  ON school property , but IN a school building. 

Many years ago in my area we held seminary in one of the town's school buildings. Nothing came of it. Now we have a totally separate building for seminary near the school but not on the property. Release time is approved. 

[Calm]

If the info is correct (actually on school property that is designated as to be used by the school) it seems highly problematic.  If the property is owned by the school district but designated for multiple uses (a store or gym could lease the land and build on it and then when the lease is up, a different business/organization leases it), that would be different, but as far as I know, that is not how land connected to the school districts work?  The city doesn’t zone land for schools with the idea that land can be an investment/income producing property for the school?

[Calm]

Quote

"After ten years, I mean I can't predict the future, but it's possible that that room will either continue to be used as a seminary, it can possibly be turned into a community room type space for all kinds of different groups," said Mentone. "We don't know what's going to happen but I do trust that our governing board makes really good fiscal decisions."

https://www.kgun9.com/news/community-inspired-journalism/vail/lds-seminary-coming-to-cienega-high-school-is-raising-concerns
It doesn’t make sense to me for the Church not to expect to continue to lease the building after ten years.  Why would they build the building there if they intended to find another location in ten years?  I am wondering if they tried to buy the land and were refused.  13 years is a long time to be discussing this.  My guess is it’s a compromise as the school wants to retain control in case they need to expand into that land some day.

The Church wouldn’t pay property tax if they owned the land, correct?

Edited March 29, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

I wonder how long it would take to walk to some of the open areas.  Maybe they are zoned only for homes though.

[california boy]

22 hours ago, Calm said:

I wonder how long it would take to walk to some of the open areas.  Maybe they are zoned only for homes though.

I attended all my seminary classes in the ward building that was about 7 mines from my high school   I think that is pretty common outside of the Jello bubble.  There is no real compelling reason for the Church needing to build on or even near any high school.

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I attended all my seminary classes in the ward building that was about 7 mines from my high school   I think that is pretty common outside of the Jello bubble.  There is no real compelling reason for the Church needing to build on or even near any high school.

 

Did you have released time?

[california boy]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

Did you have released time?

No.  But is that necessary?  No religion had any release time in high school.  It seemed to work fine to just go to seminary before school every morning.

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, california boy said:

But is that necessary?

I think it is since kids should not be required to wake up so early.

Quote

One change in the body during puberty is closely related to how you sleep. There is a shift in the timing of your circadian rhythms. Before puberty, your body makes you sleepy around 8:00 or 9:00 pm. When puberty begins, this rhythm shifts a couple hours later. Now, your body tells you to go to sleep around 10:00 or 11:00 pm.

The natural shift in a teen's circadian rhythms is called "sleep phase delay." The need to sleep is delayed for about two hours. At first, teens may appear to be suffering from insomnia. They will have a hard time falling asleep at the usual time. While they begin going to sleep later, they still need an average of nine hours of sleep at night. 

https://www.uclahealth.org/medical-services/sleep-disorders/patient-resources/patient-education/sleep-and-teens

[ZealouslyStriving]

40 minutes ago, california boy said:

No.  But is that necessary?  No religion had any release time in high school.  It seemed to work fine to just go to seminary before school every morning.

The Church isn't to blame that no other church or religion took advantage of the release time option for religious education. The option has been available to everyone- we didn't get some type of special waiver.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

The Church isn't to blame that no other church or religion took advantage of the release time option for religious education. The option has been available to everyone- we didn't get some type of special waiver.

This is just disingenuous. It was literally created for the church. The option might be available to others but they aren’t structured to use it. It is not a special waiver but the option was crafted to specifically fit the Church’s needs.

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I think it is since kids should not be required to wake up so early.

https://www.uclahealth.org/medical-services/sleep-disorders/patient-resources/patient-education/sleep-and-teens

A real problem for seminary outside the Mormon corridor. It probably screwed me up some. Then again it is probably a minor element in my general screweduppedness.

[ZealouslyStriving]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

This is just disingenuous. It was literally created for the church. The option might be available to others but they aren’t structured to use it. It is not a special waiver but the option was crafted to specifically fit the Church’s needs.

You are misinformed:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorach_v._Clauson#:~:text=Article-,Zorach v.,Clause of the First Amendment.

 

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

A real problem for seminary outside the Mormon corridor. It probably screwed me up some. Then again it is probably a minor element in my general screweduppedness.

 

[JAHS]

7 hours ago, california boy said:

No.  But is that necessary?  No religion had any release time in high school.  It seemed to work fine to just go to seminary before school every morning.

Sometimes that works OK. But in my California town the kids have two sessions of seminary they can go to in the morning before school. One is at 6AM for those who have an early morning school class and another time at 7AM. Then after school they might have other school activities or sports and they sometime dont get home till 6PM.
When my kids got home from school they would crash and have to sleep for a couple hours. Then they still had homework to do.
So it's not an easy thing for everyone to do. 

 

Edited March 30, 2025 by JAHS

[Rain]

7 hours ago, california boy said:

No.  But is that necessary?  No religion had any release time in high school.  It seemed to work fine to just go to seminary before school every morning.

When you have a school of 3000 and 2000 are going to seminary released time works better. 

 

[california boy]

19 hours ago, Rain said:

When you have a school of 3000 and 2000 are going to seminary released time works better. 

 

But all of those 2000 students do have a chapel they meet at every sunday for instruction.  Building a special building just for seminary still isn't necessary.  It is a duplication of other meeting places that the church already owns.  And I bet those meeting houses are a lot closer to the high school than mine was in the Mormon belt.

[california boy]

20 hours ago, JAHS said:

Sometimes that works OK. But in my California town the kids have two sessions of seminary they can go to in the morning before school. One is at 6AM for those who have an early morning school class and another time at 7AM. Then after school they might have other school activities or sports and they sometime dont get home till 6PM.
When my kids got home from school they would crash and have to sleep for a couple hours. Then they still had homework to do.
So it's not an easy thing for everyone to do. 

 

Sounds very similar to where I grew up, and is the common practice anywhere outside of the Mormon belt.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

But all of those 2000 students do have a chapel they meet at every sunday for instruction.  Building a special building just for seminary still isn't necessary.  It is a duplication of other meeting places that the church already owns.  And I bet those meeting houses are a lot closer to the high school than mine was in the Mormon belt.

The advantage of the released time for places in high density members are fewer teachers needed and less driving (even when church is closer). It also means that the teachers can have this as a full time job verses labor intensive callings in every ward/stake.  

One advantage for the school is slightly smaller class sizes. I saw this when I was in high school. I had early morning seminary and had driver's Ed scheduled for 4th hour.  When there were too many driver's Ed students they worked with the seminary - they had early morning driver's Ed and the early morning seminary students switched to driver's Ed and went to 4th hour seminary.  

It's not like the schools only release for religious things.  Some places also release students for work.  

I'm not saying there should be released time seminary. I'm just saying there are some advantages with released time for schools with a large population of members. 

Edited March 31, 2025 by Rain

[The Nehor]

22 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

You are misinformed:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorach_v._Clauson#:~:text=Article-,Zorach v.,Clause of the First Amendment.

That is the case law that makes laws like this pass constitutional muster but the specific laws used in Utah and Idaho to allow it there are crafted to fit LDS requirements. Acting like the laws were created to be general is a bit disingenuous. Could other religions use them? Sure. Would they fit what they wanted? Maybe but that would be coincidence and not deliberate.

[Peacefully]

Forget the kids, I needed my sleep before work, lol. It would have been great if my kids had the option to do it at some other time, and on campus would have been even better. This is just eight years of me grudgingly getting up early talking, lol. 

Edited March 31, 2025 by Peacefully

[webbles]

13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

That is the case law that makes laws like this pass constitutional muster but the specific laws used in Utah and Idaho to allow it there are crafted to fit LDS requirements. Acting like the laws were created to be general is a bit disingenuous. Could other religions use them? Sure. Would they fit what they wanted? Maybe but that would be coincidence and not deliberate.

You sure about that?  Release Time is a really old concept.  Wiki says it was discussed in 1905 in New York and first implemented in 1914 in Indiana.  Most of the case law around release time is from outside of Utah and Idaho.  I know that Utah used to allow kids to get school credit from the Old and New Testament courses, but that was struct down in the 1970s by an appeals court.  But they recently changed that because of another appeals court case in the 4th District dealing with South Carolina that ruled in the 2010s that school credit from release time courses is permissible.

https://www.releasedtime.org/statelaws lists related laws and statutes in all the states and I don't see Utah being all that much different from the other states.  It even looks like Utah would be a fairly easy state for other religions to take advantage of release time.

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, Peacefully said:

Forget the kids, I needed my sleep before work, lol. It would have been great if my kids had the option to do it at some other time, and on campus would have been even better. This is just eight years of me grudgingly getting up early talking, lol. 

They can opt to do it online now - at least, that's been an option in my stake since COVID.

 

Edited March 31, 2025 by Amulek

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That is the case law that makes laws like this pass constitutional muster but the specific laws used in Utah and Idaho to allow it there are crafted to fit LDS requirements. Acting like the laws were created to be general is a bit disingenuous. Could other religions use them? Sure. Would they fit what they wanted? Maybe but that would be coincidence and not deliberate.

You can never admit when you are wrong can you?

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

You can never admit when you are wrong can you?

The sample size is too small to draw any reliable conclusions from it.