Why were people so against Joseph Smith.

[Analytics]

15 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Thanks for your opinion. 

- I don't understand why people thought that. Joseph Smith was bussy decipher the golden plates as God has commanded him to do. From what i've read it WERE the other people trying to steel the golden plates from Joseph Smith. On may think that those other people were the treasure diggers. 

He did other things besides writing the Book of Mormon, which included money digging.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Joseph_Smith_and_money_digging

15 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

- What? He created a bank? This was 200 years ago in 1820. Did banks even existed at that time? And Joseph Smith was a poor farmer btw. He had no money

He created a bank in 1836, and it failed in 1837.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirtland_Safety_Society

15 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

- Well ... i absolutely don't believe this. This sounds like gossips to me. Who made the statement that Joseph Smith lied to his wife? What had investigaters to do with Joseph Smiths business? And who made the statement that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy?

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Joseph_Smith_hid_polygamy_from_the_general_Church_membership

15 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

- Are you sure those where LDS members? It's most likely that those people were from a different church and where hating on Joseph Smith and his church. Wich happend a lot and they were given Joseph Smith a hard time. Were is the proof that Joseph Smit burnt down any paper? Sounds like gossips to me. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauvoo_Expositor

[SeekingUnderstanding]

6 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

He was searching those Golden plates. 

From your church’s website:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/joseph-smiths-1826-trial?lang=eng

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Members on the board!? What do you think about Joseph Smith? And do you like his character? 

I formerly put him on a pedestal in a sort of way, while an active believing member for most my life until one day I saw that he had some flaws, one being he married other men's wives and single women behind Emma's back. I hadn't known, and it started my faith crisis. But I still think if I were to go back to be active in any church, the LDS is in my DNA and I have many stories of my ancestors of their sacrifice and their testimony of the church that I hold dear and would stay a member of the LDS church.

In my heart though, I don't believe there is any one true church but believe the church is true as far as it doing good and bearing good fruit, except I don't think that polygamy was good fruit. I think just like the prophets in the Bible, Joseph wasn't perfect. I'm sure he had some great things about him or else how could Emma still love him so much. And his children etc. So you can have your opinion and others on this board and in the church, can have theirs. We all just form these opinions with our life experience. I don't think the LDS church forces it's members to only believe what they are told to believe, we have our agency.  

Also, if you go to the church website and put in general conference it will bring up all the general conferences and you can watch for talks about Joseph Smith. As well as get to know the First Presidency which is Pres Oaks being the 1st counselor as was told to you or next in line for president of the church. Here's a link for the April 2024 conference: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2024/04?lang=eng

 

Edited September 24, 2024 by Tacenda

[Dario_M]

2 minutes ago, Analytics said:

He did other things besides writing the Book of Mormon, which included money digging.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Joseph_Smith_and_money_digging

He created a bank in 1836, and it failed in 1837.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirtland_Safety_Society

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Joseph_Smith_hid_polygamy_from_the_general_Church_membership

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauvoo_Expositor

I'm not even going to read those links. 

[Dario_M]

3 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

From your church’s website:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/joseph-smiths-1826-trial?lang=eng

My eyes allready hurt. Like i said a lot of people where a big blockade in his way. And even if he was searching for some silver then let the poor guy he was poor. He was not trespassing while he was searching for silver or so.

[VCC]

They were always against those who followed the right path, brother.

[InCognitus]

Because it was prophesied that such would be the case.  This is from Joseph Smith's account of the first visit of Moroni to him in 1823: 

"He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people."  (Joseph Smith—History 1:33)

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

36 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

And even if he was searching for some silver then let the poor guy he was poor. He was not trespassing while he was searching for silver or so.

The issue isn't that he was looking for silver because he was poor. The issue is that he made money by claiming the ability to see hidden treasure in the earth, then claiming whenever they got close that it sunk deeper into the ground...

[Dario_M]

26 minutes ago, VCC said:

They were always against those who followed the right path, brother.

This.💯

[LoudmouthMormon]

Hey Dario - you might want to spend some time asking yourself why you are so resistant to considering that Joseph might have had some flaws.   If you expect a prophet to be perfect, you will only be able to maintain that belief as long as you can avoid reading history.

Do you think Joseph suddenly became infallible and perfect and 100% right all the time only after the Angel visited him, or do you believe he was perfect before?

Here's a thought exercise - think about the flaws humans have.  Ask yourself if a prophet could have any of those flaws.  If you don't think they could have them, then you probably should also stop believing the Bible is scripture, because those apostles and Old Testament prophets had some severe flaws:

Quote

Could a prophet...

Kill? Jg 14:19 (Samson); Ex 2:11-16 (Moses).

 Lie? Gen 12:10-29 (Abraham); Jer 38:24-28 (Jeremiah); 1 Ki 2:8-9 (David); 2 Ki 8:10 (Elisha); and Mt 26:69-75 (Peter).

 Get drunk? Genesis 9:21 (Noah).

 Boast? 2 Cor 11:16 (Paul).

 For a small fee, use his supernatural powers to tell where to find lost animals? 1 Sam 9:6-8, 20.

 Prophesy of an event which fails to occur? Jon 3:1-10; Jer 18:5-10.

 Gamble? Jg 14:12-20.

 Be angry at God? Jon 4:1, 9.

 Believe something unscientific? Lev 11:6; Deu 14:7 (the hare does not chew the cud).

 Curse children? 2 Ki 2:23-25 (Elisha).

 Want vengeance? Ps 137:9; Jer 18:19-23.

 Contradict a former prophet? Mt 19:3-8 compare Deu 24:1-4 (divorce); 2 Sa 24:1 compare 1 Ch 21:1 (who caused David to sin?); Ex 34:7 compare Ez 18:20 (are children punished for the sins of their fathers); Ex 23:7 compare Ro 4:5 (does God justify the ungodly?).

 Fail to understand a revelation? Ac 10:3, 17; 1 Cor 13:9-12.

 Advocate divorce? Ezra 9, 10:3, 11, 19, 44.

 Institute strange sounding rituals? Ex 29.

 Give counsel not approved by the Lord? 2 Sa 7:1-5 (Nathan).

 Worship false gods? 1 Ki 11:9-10.

 Accept a position as the chief of magicians, astrologers, and soothsayers? Dan 5:11.

 Break God's moral law? Jg 16:1 (Samson visits a prostitute); 2 Sa 11 (David and Bathsheba).

 Give two contradictory prophecies? 1 Ki 22:14-18?

 Lie to another prophet in the name of the Lord? 1 Ki 13:11-32.

 Accuse God of deception and betrayal? Jer 20:7.

 Go out in public naked? Is 20:1-6 (Isaiah); 2 Sa 6:20-22 (David); Mic 1:8 (Micah).

 Attribute doubtful characteristics to God? 2 Sa 6:6-7 (God kills in anger); Ex 7:3 (God hardens Pharoah's heart); 2 Sa 24:1, 10 (God punishes David for a sin he "moved" him to commit); 1 Ki 22:9-23 (God causes prophets to lie); Ez 14:9 (God deceives prophets); Am 3:6 (God is the cause of evil in a city); Ez 20:25-26, 31 (God gave laws and judgments which were not good, including child sacrifice); Hos 9:15-16 (God hates and curses); Deu 20:10-11, Lev 25:44 (God commands and condones slavery); 1 Sa 16:14, 18:10 (God sends evil spirits to influence men); 2 Th 2:11 (God will delude men); Ex 32:14, Deu 28:68, Am 7:3, 6, Jonah 3:9, 10, Jer 26:13; 2 Sa 24:16 (God changes his mind).

 Be wrong about what God wants?  1 Chronicles 17, verses 2-5:
1 NOW it came to pass, as David sat in his house, that David said to Nathan the prophet, Lo, I dwell in an house of cedars, but the ark of the covenant of the LORD remaineth under curtains.
2 Then Nathan said unto David, Do all that is in thine heart; for God is with thee.
3 And it came to pass the same night, that the word of God came to Nathan, saying,
4 Go and tell David my servant, Thus saith the LORD, Thou shalt not build me an house to dwell in.

Teach doctrines which contradict earlier scriptures or were totally unknown to earlier prophets?   Peter's revelation concerning the consumption of unclean animals (Acts 10:9-20) contradicts earlier revelations given to Moses (Leviticus 10:10-11; 11:4-47; 20:22-26; Deuteronomy 14:1-20). Paul received a revelation that the Gentiles would be heirs with Israel through adoption in Christ. He taught that this information had been hidden from earlier generations (Romans 11:25; 16:25-26; Ephesians 1:5, 9-10; 2:11-13, 19; 3:3-6, 9; Colossians 1:26-27).

 

You have some thinking do to, my friend. 

For me, I believe God chooses imperfect people to do His will, because he doesn't have any perfect people to choose.  Because we're all imperfect.  

I mean, if you ask the people who knew Joseph the most, who knew him personally the best, they pretty much mostly confirm his good character, his genuineness, his honesty.  They believe that Joseph believed in what he was doing.  But that's different from expecting him to never screw up.

[InCognitus]

4 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Could a prophet...

You brought back a lot of memories with this post, as this list goes back a long way.  I have a saved post of this from Arden Eby on January 21, 1996.   

[Dario_M]

24 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

The issue isn't that he was looking for silver because he was poor. The issue is that he made money by claiming the ability to see hidden treasure in the earth, then claiming whenever they got close that it sunk deeper into the ground...

My brain also sunks deeper into my throat right now. Maybe i need a little break. 

[Dario_M]

30 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Because it was prophesied that such would be the case.  This is from Joseph Smith's account of the first visit of Moroni to him in 1823: 

"He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people."  (Joseph Smith—History 1:33)

 

 

That's so vague. That could mean anything. You see too much behind it. 

[Dario_M]

27 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Hey Dario - you might want to spend some time asking yourself why you are so resistant to considering that Joseph might have had some flaws.

Yes but it depends on wich flaws people claims he has. 

27 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

   If you expect a prophet to be perfect, you will only be able to maintain that belief as long as you can avoid reading history.

Only Jesus Christ was perfect. For the rest nobody is perfect. Prophets are also not perfect. We are all humans. 

27 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Do you think Joseph suddenly became infallible and perfect and 100% right all the time only after the Angel visited him, or do you believe he was perfect before?

No but i do believe that an Angel had visit him and given him instructions. Those things happen all the time.

Look at Jeanne d'arc for example. She was also visited by angels and they gave her instructions on what she needed to do. And what she needed to do was winning the war against England. And...because of her angels France won the war against England!

27 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Here's a thought exercise - think about the flaws humans have.  Ask yourself if a prophet could have any of those flaws.

Offcourse. But the heavy accusations against Joseph Smith are not just some flaws. 

27 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

You have some thinking do to, my friend. 

Really?

27 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

For me, I believe God chooses imperfect people to do His will, because he doesn't have any perfect people to choose.  Because we're all imperfect.  

This is exactly what i also believe. 

27 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I mean, if you ask the people who knew Joseph the most, who knew him personally the best, they pretty much mostly confirm his good character, his genuineness, his honesty.  They believe that Joseph believed in what he was doing.  But that's different from expecting him to never screw up.

I'm sure he did so. 

Edited September 24, 2024 by Dario_M

[JVW]

I have a lot of respect and admiration for Joseph, but I recognize that he also made a lot of mistakes. I am not going to look up sources and I'm a bit rusty on the specifics of church history, so don't quote me on all of this, but he definitely screwed up several times in some major ways.

The good:

- he was very compassionate towards the sick and afflicted because of what he endured through his childhood. He almost died from the surgery on a bone infection in his leg, so his parents sent him to live on the coast with his uncle, thinking the fresh air would give him a shot to live. Due to this experience he always had a soft spot for the sick and weak.

- he stood up for what he believed in, even as a youth. One time he got in a fight with a grown up and was almost drowned because the guy was beating up one of his friends.

- he was forgiving. One Saturday night he was woken up in the middle of the night by being dragged out of his home and tarred and feathered by a mob. They tried to poison him but he resisted opening his mouth. One or two of his babies ended up dying as a result of the broken door letting the cold night air come in. One of his teeth was chipped on the stone ground and he had a minor lisp for the rest of his life. The following morning, on Sunday, after staying up all night with his loved ones trying to pick all the tar off of his skin, he preached a sermon. The sermon wasn't used as an excuse to give the middle finger to those who hurt him (many of whom were in the audience), his sermon was focused on the love of Jesus Christ.

- he translated the book of Mormon, received many powerful revelations, and the church that has grown from what he started becomes a better organization with each passing year.

- Evidence suggests that he was faithful to his wife during his years of plural marriage. There is some controversy here, mainly with Fanny Alger, but he only had kids with Emma. And even though they had a rocky marriage, if he was using polygamy for sex he certainly would have had other children like what Brigham did.

The bad:

- lost the 116 pages.

- After Kirtland, when he moved to Missouri, he was pissed about the apostasy that was happening and approached Missouri in a very strict manner. It created an environment for Sidney Rigdon to give the "salt sermon" and the creation of the Danites (basically like a vigilante militia). While in Missouri, the Saints endured a ton of injustice, they were still able to fight and dish it out. I believe that his attitude in Missouri directly resulted in him being jailed in Liberty Jail.

- In Nauvoo, Joseph Smith took too much advantage of his political strength as a religious leader. Both political sides of the state of Illinois were taken advantage of because they each knew that if they got the vote from Joseph they'd get all of the votes from those that followed him and would win elections.

- His destruction of the printing press in Nauvoo shortly before his martyrdom, was a direct attack on the freedom of the press and freedom of speech, and wasn't very Christlike.

- As I understand it, polygamy is an abomination and always has been, and it was dumb of him to misinterpret the new doctrine of sealing to apply it the way that he did. I can understand why he did, but I still think it was stupid.

Conclusion:

Ultimately, I really respect Joseph. I think if everybody was more like him the world would be a better place. Kind of like how captain Moroni is talked about in the book of Mormon. I prefer him in his early years over his later years, but he was a great, yet flawed, man. Could I have been his friend? Probably not, he's not my personality type. But I like the church he founded (or restored) and I like a lot of his teachings.

This list is not comprehensive in either direction, and again, I probably have a bunch of the facts wrong. I can't spend 8 hours trying to source all of this stuff, but I believe that I'm mostly accurate in what I've shared in this post, but maybe not.

[JVW]

Also, you shouldn't be afraid of people sharing their beliefs and opinions. A lot of what we know about church history, even the good aspects of it, come from documents written by anti-Mormons and disaffected church members. Church historians have to swim in this stuff. There is a lot of "anti" stuff that is just really toxic. Just mean and disrespectful. But a lot of it is really interesting and helps paint a more complete picture of the people God is working with to build a church.

[Dario_M]

15 minutes ago, JVW said:

I have a lot of respect and admiration for Joseph, but I recognize that he also made a lot of mistakes. I am not going to look up sources and I'm a bit rusty on the specifics of church history, so don't quote me on all of this, but he definitely screwed up several times in some major ways.

The good:

- he was very compassionate towards the sick and afflicted because of what he endured through his childhood. He almost died from the surgery on a bone infection in his leg, so his parents sent him to live on the coast with his uncle, thinking the fresh air would give him a shot to live. Due to this experience he always had a soft spot for the sick and weak.

- he stood up for what he believed in, even as a youth. One time he got in a fight with a grown up and was almost drowned because the guy was beating up one of his friends.

- he was forgiving. One Saturday night he was woken up in the middle of the night by being dragged out of his home and tarred and feathered by a mob. They tried to poison him but he resisted opening his mouth. One or two of his babies ended up dying as a result of the broken door letting the cold night air come in. One of his teeth was chipped on the stone ground and he had a minor lisp for the rest of his life. The following morning, on Sunday, after staying up all night with his loved ones trying to pick all the tar off of his skin, he preached a sermon. The sermon wasn't used as an excuse to give the middle finger to those who hurt him (many of whom were in the audience), his sermon was focused on the love of Jesus Christ.

- he translated the book of Mormon, received many powerful revelations, and the church that has grown from what he started becomes a better organization with each passing year.

- Evidence suggests that he was faithful to his wife during his years of plural marriage. There is some controversy here, mainly with Fanny Alger, but he only had kids with Emma. And even though they had a rocky marriage, if he was using polygamy for sex he certainly would have had other children like what Brigham did.

The bad:

- lost the 116 pages.

- After Kirtland, when he moved to Missouri, he was pissed about the apostasy that was happening and approached Missouri in a very strict manner. It created an environment for Sidney Rigdon to give the "salt sermon" and the creation of the Danites (basically like a vigilante militia). While in Missouri, the Saints endured a ton of injustice, they were still able to fight and dish it out. I believe that his attitude in Missouri directly resulted in him being jailed in Liberty Jail.

- In Nauvoo, Joseph Smith took too much advantage of his political strength as a religious leader. Both political sides of the state of Illinois were taken advantage of because they each knew that if they got the vote from Joseph they'd get all of the votes from those that followed him and would win elections.

- His destruction of the printing press in Nauvoo shortly before his martyrdom, was a direct attack on the freedom of the press and freedom of speech, and wasn't very Christlike.

- As I understand it, polygamy is an abomination and always has been, and it was dumb of him to misinterpret the new doctrine of sealing to apply it the way that he did. I can understand why he did, but I still think it was stupid.

Conclusion:

Ultimately, I really respect Joseph. I think if everybody was more like him the world would be a better place. Kind of like how captain Moroni is talked about in the book of Mormon. I prefer him in his early years over his later years, but he was a great, yet flawed, man. Could I have been his friend? Probably not, he's not my personality type. But I like the church he founded (or restored) and I like a lot of his teachings.

This list is not comprehensive in either direction, and again, I probably have a bunch of the facts wrong. I can't spend 8 hours trying to source all of this stuff, but I believe that I'm mostly accurate in what I've shared in this post, but maybe not.

This was beautiful to read. I believe your whole post immediately. I don't even need to think about it. I just believe this!

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Well...i don't believe in that. 

Why would it matter if he did use the same seer stone for treasure hunting as receiving the Book of Mormon if I may ask?

A lot of things sound bad at first glance, especially if we have certain ideas on how a prophet should act, but if one thinks about them in a what would I do if I were him or what is practical, it can then seem not that big of a deal. 
 

Treasure hunting in Joseph’s time was a popular activity, but it wasn’t always done for the same reason that we would do it today, to get rich.  Christians at that time looked on it sort of like helping a soul with unfinished business.  By finding their lost treasure, they could do good works with it.  So greed wasn’t always the motivator to go treasure hunting.  At times it might be a more spiritual endeavour than a financial one.

At least that is the memory of research I read on this. I will try and find it. 

Edited September 24, 2024 by Calm

[Dario_M]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why would it matter if he did use the same seer stone for treasure hunting as receiving the Book of Mormon if I may ask?

Yeah i don't know really actually. 

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

A lot of things sound bad at first glance, especially if we have certain ideas on how a prophet should act, but if one thinks about them in a what would I do if I were him or what is practical, it can then seem not that big of a deal. 
 

Yeah i realize that now. He was just a human. And humans aren't perfect. We all make mistakes. 

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

Treasure hunting in Joseph’s time was a popular activity, but it wasn’t always done for the same reason that we would do it today, to get rich.  Christians at that time looked on it sort of like helping a soul with unfinished business.  By finding their lost treasure, they could do good works with it.  So greed wasn’t always the motivator to go treasure hunting.  At times it might be a more spiritual endeavour than a financial one.

And i'm sure that would be the reason why Joseph Smith went in the woods to treasure hunt. Just for spiritual endeavour purpose. 

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

At least that is the memory of research I read on this. I will try and find it. 

Yeah do that. I'm also want to read it. 

[Pyreaux]

18 hours ago, Dario_M said:

I just had read a link about the life of Joseph Smith. @Calm had given me that link so i could study a bit about Joseph Smiths life. And i think he had a really tough life. People did not believed him when he told them about his revelations from God. When God told Joseph Smith that he needed to decipher the golden plates, a lot of people tried to steel the golden plates because they wanted to make money from it. Later on his translated scriptures were stolen, so it's quite well posible that his original storie has been changed  Joseph Smith has been beaten up as well aften from what i've red. Till the moment he got murdered. Why were people so horible for him? Why had he so many enemies. Even now most people can't say 1 positive thing about Joseh Smith. I don't understand why. That poor guy had so many enemies. It's just said if i think about it. All he wanne do was restore a new church. As God had told Joseph Smith to do. But so many people were against his mission. Mission Restore. 💪

There are two (or more) sides to every story. History is sloppy. Many critics of the church accuse Joseph Smith by favoring the accounts by his avowed enemies, say he was a defrauder and conman.

Some members aren’t siding one way or another because, Joseph did admit in his history that he was guilty of levity and other follies of youth during that time before he brought forth the Book of Mormon.

While some know that after the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith was often the victim of extra-legal persecution and was falsely accused and imprisoned, so satisfied by their belief in him that he was innocent.

Joseph was not a "Money Digger", it was the greedy Nephews of Josiah Stowell

Joseph Smith clearly denied his reputation of being a money-digger in his early days. His enemies claim he spent his time inciting people to dig for treasure after using his abilities to determine where the treasure was buried, which was a known folk practice. Joseph said that the many rumors of him being a "money-digger" were caused by the following story: http://scriptures.lds.org/js_h/1/56#56

Here is the account from "Joseph Smith and His Progenitors" by Lucy Mack Smith

"A short time before the house was completed, a man by the name of Josiah Stoal, came from Chenango County, New York, with the view of getting Joseph to assist him in digging for a silver mine**. He came for Joseph on account of having heard that he possessed certain keys, by which he could discern things invisible to the natural eye.

Joseph endeavored to divert him from his vain pursuit, but he was inflexible in his purpose, and offered high wages to those who would dig for him, in search of said mine, and still insisted upon having Joseph to work for him. Accordingly, Joseph and several others returned with him and commenced digging. After laboring for the old gentleman about a month, without success, Joseph prevailed upon him to cease his operations; and it was from this circumstance of having worked by the month, at digging for a silver mine, that the very prevalent story arose of Joseph's being a money-digger.

During the time that I was thus employed, I was put to board with a Mr. Isaac Hale, of that place; it was there I first saw my wife (his daughter), Emma Hale. On the 18th of January, 1827, we were married, while I was yet employed in the service of Mr. Stoal. (p. 102-103) "

** This project of Stoal's was undertaken from this cause - an old document had fallen into his possession, containing information of silver mines being somewhere in the neighborhood in which he resided.

Joseph was not a "Glass Looker", it was a Hearing Document that never went to Trial

Then, there was the discovery of the Glass-Looker court document concerning an issue that supposedly happened in 1826 with a “Joseph Smith” “Glass-Looker”. Supposing the "glass-looker" document is real, the timing indicates that it may be related to this story. It seems there might have been a hearing where trumped up charges, moved by the greedy nephews who wanted their old uncle to shell out money to pay someone else to dig for buried treasure so they wouldn't have to dirty their hands. As it seems they didn't charge Joseph with anything until after he already convinced Mr. Stowell that he was wasting his money. Which is probably why these charges never made it to trial.

Some dishonest critics are claiming the documents say the Glass Looker document was “a trial” and the Joseph was found “guilty” of “Glass Looking”. That glass looking, aside from being a common folk practice, was in some parts considered a con, thus critics claim he was taken to court, tried and found guilty of a con. However the charge was a “misdemeanor” that was unspecified, and the words “Glass Looker” was placed under his name, was likely their way to distinguish him from other Joseph Smiths. (Joseph Smith - Glass Looker)

Public Record Analysis

There is no reason to question the objectivity of the bills, if they are found to be authentic. However, the question of the bills' authenticity must remain open until a study of the handwriting on the documents can be analyzed, given that the finder of the documents cannot be considered an unbiased source and that the documents were not found in their historical environment (they were removed from the basement by Walters).

If the documents are found to be legitimate, they will confirm the following details:

JS was before the court due to an unspecified misdemeanor charge.
The Justice's fee was $2.68
The court appearance was on March 20, 1826.
JS was held for two days and one night.
12 witnesses were subpoenaed.
Two justices were notified.
The sheriff had a mittimus.
None of this information, however, details the testimony or verdict directly.

Table 2: Public record summary.

Other public records revealed after Walters' finding show the other county Justices were not involved in JS's case. This convinced Walters, who originally claimed it to be a trial, to agreed with others, that the Pearsall accounts represent a pre-trial hearing.

Conclusion, the evidence from published accounts and public records seem to allow one to be fairly certain in concluding that JS was detained and brought before Judge Neely under the disorderly person accusation. However, there is not sufficient evidence to conclude that JS was ever brought before the "Court of Special Sessions" necessary to indict or hand out a verdict.

Further, the use of the Pearsall accounts as official "court records" by Fawn Brodie and others is historically insecure, as the original record is not available for examination or verification. Even if verified, the Pearsall accounts provide incomplete witness accounts, are sometimes self-contradictory, and contradict the only published first-hand account in many critical details.

The accounts are all well removed from the occurrence, the earliest being published forty-seven years after the fact. Given the excitement and negative publicity surrounding the publication of the Book of Mormon and the organization of the Mormon Church in 1830, the lack of published concern over the 1826 incident casts doubt as to its significance. Instead, the increased interest in the incident almost fifty years later seems to coincide with a changing culture in which things such as "seer stones" and digging for treasure were not as publicly acceptable.

https://web.archive.org/web/20061023062210/http://omninerd.com/2006/06/11/articles/55

The Kirtland Safety Society was Legal but subject to Double Standards of the Law

It’s a historic controversy. It was once believed it was 'probably' illegal because it continued to operate when the charter was denied, so the plates they made to print money were changed to be an anti-bank. Which according to an unenforced 1816 act, it was technically illegal. But because it was largely unenforced by many other private “banks” in the area, may show it might not have been, there are apparently several articles from Painseville Republican newspaper in 1837 that said 1816 Act was pretty much obsolete and inoperative, from which there were multiple organizations that ran similar private "banks" at the same time with no prosecution. Insurance companies, savings institutions, the Ohio railroad company, Granville Alexandrian which even paid bank taxes all ran without a charter. The Ohio State Legislature did not even print the 1816 law in its official book of statutes, including in 1824, therefore, it would seem Joseph was simply being singled out to force Joseph out of town, and it worked.

You do understand that most actions taken against the Latter-day Saints were extralegal, brought by non-Mormon vigilantes prejudiced against the Saints' opposition to slavery, their influx into a region, religious teachings and the territorial establishments. The same prejudice by which civil magistrates refused peace warrants, refused to redress personal injuries or property damage and all three branches of state government seemed either paralyzed or supportive of the mob as the Saints were repeatedly dispossessed and expelled from county to county.

From the Hill, Rooker, and Wimmer article:

"In October, 1837, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon were found guilty of unauthorized banking and fined $1000 each. They paid the fines and appealed the verdict. Unfortunately, they were forced to leave Ohio for the safety of their lives before the appeal could be heard. Because of the conviction, however, it is usually concluded the Safety Society was illegal. Critics further charge that Joseph Smith knowingly broke the law. This charge is false. Furthermore, the Safety Society was not illegal. It was legal. The court got the law wrong."

"On January 1, 1823, the Ohio legislature, by resolution, formed a Committee of Revision. The Committee’s mandate was to review all laws of Ohio of a general nature [7] (7 Meaning laws applicable to all of Ohio and not just a specific region), draft revisions and new statutes as necessary, and to discard those statutes that ought to be discarded. The 1816 Act was discarded by the Committee, and a new statute was drafted in its place."

"the Committee of Revision drafted a statute to replace the 1816 Act, which was adopted by the government in 1824 (1824 Act). This Act did not make banking without a charter illegal. The only legal consequence of circulating notes from a bank without a charter was that such notes were deemed null and void in the courts. There is no prohibition against issuing and circulating these notes and no penalty for officers of unchartered banks. Under the 1824 Act, the Safety Society was legal."
(http://byustudies.byu.edu/articleDownload.aspx?title=5302&linkURL=17.4HillRooker.pdf)

Joseph Smith was not Enriched, so did not Defraud and Paid all his Debts

Firstly that bank failure itself was not caused by fraud; such a charge makes no sense. This couldn’t have been Joseph’s design, Joseph didn't get enriched; he lost money and went into debt. Joseph did not profit personally from the bank, and had withdrew his support before the failure. Joseph probably suffered more than anyone from the event. There is no evidence that Joseph was getting rich. He paid more for his stock in the bank than 85% of the subscribers, and he put more of his own money into the bank than anyone else, save one person and expended considerable resources trying to save it. And if Joseph Smith's intent was to defraud, then why did he not simply avoid paying his debt while safely away in Nauvoo under habeus corpus protection?

This series of "charges" seem to be the outdated speculations of Fawn Brodie that supposed Joseph Smith couldn't have paid his debts and what he fled to state it was to avoid doing so. But a dig into historical records shown he could and likely did pay his debts. From a BYU study of the legal records in a Hill, Rooker, and Wimmer article:

"Meticulous research into court records and the papers of Joseph Smith indicate that Joseph’s total cumulative indebtedness over the period [1835-37] was a little over 100,000 rather than in excess of $150,000 as Brodie maintains. There is evidence that at least $60,000 of this debt was subsequently settled possibly much more. Brodie ignores Smith’s assets. We have found that Smith owned land in conjunction with others worth $130,000. Assuming that this was bought entirely on credit which is unlikely, Smith and company held $59,500 in equity as a result of rising land values. Thus Smith and other investors associated with him had assets in excess of their debts when they left Kirtland in early 1838. These assets would likely have been adequate to cover Smith’s business ventures had there been sufficient liquid capital and a continuing prosperity."(McKay White in his FAIR Conference presentation (based on modern findings of Marvin S. Hill, C. Keith Rooker, and Larry T. Wimmer (1976-1977) “The Kirtland Economy Revisited: A Market Critique of Sectarian Economics.” BYU Studies 17) titled, The Kirtland Safety Society: The Myths, the Facts, and the Prophet's Good Name http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/KSS.pdf.)

The arrest and charge were made in the spring of 1837, Joseph was in Kirtland until the end of September which Joseph was away on a mission "as appointed to them on the 18th of September." (History of the Church, Vol.2, Ch.36, p.516 and 51  Joseph returned to Kirtland on the 10th of December of that year. Here are History of the Church accounts concerning when they came back, and why they left. (http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/12.4SampsonWim.pdf)

He stood trial and was convicted, not for fraud or enrichment, but of violating the 1816 act and was fined $1000. Apparently the charge was bogus, as he (being innocent) appealed, only the appeal was never heard because they were forced to move. People would attack him verbally and threatened him physically which forced Joseph to leave the city frequently. So, Joseph leaving had nothing directly to do with the KSS, his case was under appeal at the time he fled, and given the potential for successful appeal, it would have been in his interest to have stayed if the legal issues involving the bank were the only thing happening.

Joseph Smith was the second largest shareholder (Backman, 1983), he took out three loans on behalf of the Safety Society (Backman, 1983), and sold personal property for $5000 for further support (Backman, 1983). Joseph Smith paid more per share than 85% of the subscribers (Sampson and Larry T. Wimmer (1972)) and increased his subscription when the Safety Society was in serious trouble (Sampson and Larry T. Wimmer (1972)).

Means failure of the Safety Society would incur great losses for him. Joseph Smith’s behavior is not consistent with someone trying to bleed the organization. The claim Joseph Smith somehow enriched himself is a laugh.

From articles from the Painesville Republican 1836-1841; Joseph Smith attended a hearing that concluded with Justice Flint requiring Joseph Smith to post a $500 bond to keep the peace and appear for trial at the next term of the Court of Common Pleas. 9 June 1837 the case went to trial before Justice Humphrey of the Court of Common Pleas; the court discharged Joseph on the grounds of the insufficiency of the evidence:

"I attended the trial and took down the evidence, but was much surprised to find that no testimony appeared, on which, any reliance could be placed, that went in the least degree to crimination [sic] the respondent, but rather to raise him in the estimation of men and candor. But the Justice of the Peace who had been selected to try the question, decided otherwise, and Mr. Smith was held to bail in the sum of $500, to appear at the Court of Common Pleas, at the next term, which commenced the Monday following, being last week. The trial again came on before the County Court, on Friday last, and resulted in the entire acquittal of Joseph Smith, Jr. of the charges alleged against him. This is said to be the thirteenth prosecution which has been instituted against Joseph Smith, Jr. for the prejudice against him, he has never in a single instance been convicted, on a final trial. This fact shows on the one hand, that a spirit of persecution has existed, and on the other hand it certainly furnishes some evidence that he has for some reason, been falsely accused, and that he is indeed and in truth better than some of his accusers." (Painesville Republican, June 15, 1837)

This was the thirteenth prosecution without a conviction. People were constantly hounding of Joseph Smith with frivolous lawsuits that had no grounds and in most cases for which he was totally acquitted. But then in October, 1837, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon were found guilty of unauthorized banking and fined $1000 each. They paid the fines and appealed the verdict. The 1816 Act wasn't in force in 1837:

"It is doubted, however, by good judges, whether the [1816 Act] is now in force, or if in force, whether it is not unconstitutional, and therefore not binding upon the people." (Painesville Republican, January 19, 1837)

"The law of 1816 ... has long since become obsolete and inoperative....'
"The law of '16 against private banking ... was rejected by the committee and was not republished by the legislature." (Painesville Republican, February 16, 1837)

It would seems the Kirtland Safety Society was prosecuted while the Ohio Railroad Company and the Granville Alexandrian Literary Society were not, because of some sort of bias. Joseph and Oliver were convicted of nothing except by a jury's misapplication of the law that would have easily been overturned on appeal. They did appeal, but they were forced to leave Ohio before the appeal could be heard.

"People who were convinced that Joseph had intended a swindle at the outset attacked him verbally and threatened him physically. This disruption forced Joseph to leave the city frequently..." (Wilford Woodruff, "Wilford Woodruff's Journal," January 6, 1837)

Anti-Mormons caused a run on the bank

It’s been once believed the bank failed because it was a bad investment, after all, the Ohio legislature denied their charter (Bushman 2005, p. 330). Perhaps if the bank had been better funded and capable of redeeming the notes it issued, things would have turned out differently when “Skeptical (and perhaps mean-spirited) customers presented their notes for redemption, and the bank’s pitiful supply of liquid capital was exhausted within days.” “As treasurer and secretary and signers of the notes, Joseph and Rigdon begged the note holders to keep them, promising that the economy would benefit. In June, faced with complete collapse, both resigned. In August, Joseph publicly disavowed the Kirtland notes in the Church newspaper.

McKay White calculated "Safety Society had a reserve ratio of 21%", as compared with today's reserve rates for banks of around 3%. Part of the problem with the KSS reserves was that they were capitalized, in part, by land (more so towards the end of the KSS's existence than at the start). Perhaps the only thing KSS didn't have going for it was a charter,, since it may have been able to find more capital with a charter since it possessed unusual loyalty from the members of its immediate community.

"our study suggests that the economic situation in Kirtland was not so bad as students have supposed and that Joseph Smith and other Mormon leaders operated on common assumptions about economic trends had they been able to secure a charter it is likely that the demand on their bank would not have become excessive and thus the institution might have become a successful business enterprise the initiation of the anti banking experiment was unquestionably a mistake but one of political misjudgment rather than intentional fraud. Mormon losses at Kirtland were heavy for some but perhaps not sufficient to explain the degree of disillusionment and protest which followed there is room for a reconsideration of the sources of dissent at Kirtland which maybe undertaken at another time"'

http://byustudies.byu.edu/articleDownload.aspx?title=5302&linkURL=17.4HillRooker.pdf

Perhaps it would have turned out differently if the Anti-Mormons did not [cause] a run on the bank. The KSS officers didn't anticipate a conspiracy by the Church's enemies to gather up as many of the notes as they could, and redeem them for species, rather than using them as legal tender as expected. This threatened to drastically reduce the liquid portion of the reserves below what was viable, thus forcing the officers to suspend species payment, which caused a drastic devaluation of the notes. Attempts were made to bolster the reserves using the sell of KSS subscriptions and land and loans from other banks. However, in the end, it was too little too late, and the Society failed, and the notes then became worthless.

It is impossible to tell for certain, but it is unlikely given the dicey economic conditions beyond the bankers control at the time. There is good reason to believe that Grandison Newell, a farmer and businessman in nearby Mentor, and long-time antagonist against the Church, was heavily involved, if not the primary conspirator and instigator. He, along with several Campbelite parishioners, help organize and fund the affidavit-harvesting trip of Philastus Hurlbut in 1833 (cite), he was instrumental in blocking the KSS first request for a bank charter (cite, see also: Hill, Rooker, and Wimmer, p. 441), and was known to have conspired to thwart the KSS both through litigation and other means (see the witness testimonies in the trial in the spring of 1837 where Newell accused Joseph of conspiring to murder him the case was dismissed for lack of evidence).

Joseph had a strong case for appealing the one judgment that Newell was successful in bringing against him. Of most interest, Newell's lawsuits were, themselves, illegal (see pages 184 and 185), and also hypocritical (Newell was a major stock holder in a railroad company that, around the time of the KSS, issued hundreds of thousands of dollars in bank notes without a charter, which notes also ended up worthless--see p. 185. And, "he defaulted on state debt at the same time he sanctimoniously castigated the inability of Joseph Smith and Later-day Saints to meet their financial obligations." see p. 187)

Joseph was killed by Political Assassins for Power

There are several attempts by our critics to do so, there is no grounds for anyone to condemn Joseph to death, nor even to insinuate wrongdoing on his part. The motivations for the charges against Joseph Smith after the ordering the suppression of the Nauvoo Expositor that lead to his death.

Weren’t all Americans guaranteed the protections found in the Bill of Rights, the first 10 amendments to the United States Constitution? The very first of these is generally taken as a guarantee of the right to practice religion freely? After Joseph’s Smith’s people had been abused and unjustly treated in Missouri with Governor Bogg's "extermination" order against their entire religion. They met with President Van Buren who said he was sympathetic to them, but Van Buren suddenly lost any sympathetic feelings he might have had for the Church. “Gentlemen, your cause is just, but I can do nothing for you. … If I take up for you I shall lose the vote of Missouri.”

They would remember this neglect when the time came for another presidential election. Joseph Smith wrote letters to the five leading candidates, and realized that none of the leading candidates for the presidency would pledge to support redress for the Saints, in the mayor’s office at Nauvoo, It was unanimously decided that Joseph Smith would run for president of the United States on an independent platform. Thus began one of the most fascinating third-party presidential campaigns in American history. He wrote a pamplet called "General Smith’s Views" and offered solutions for many of the nation’s most pressing problems.

The most important plank in Joseph’s platform concerned the powers of the president. Joseph wanted to give the chief magistrate “full power to send an army to suppress mobs … [without requiring] the governor of a state to make the demand."

Eliminating slavery was another important part of his platform. “The Declaration of Independence ‘holds these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness;’ but at the same time some two or three millions of people are held as slaves for life, because the spirit in them is covered with a darker skin.” Instead of simply calling for the abolition of slavery, Joseph Smith’s platform would have Congress “pay every man a reasonable price for his slaves out of the surplus revenue arising from the sale of public lands, and from the deduction of pay from members of Congress.”

In my opinion the solution that would have prevented the Civil War.

The platform also proposed changes to Congress. Joseph wanted to reduce congressional pay from eight dollars to two dollars per day. He wanted to have only two members of the House of Representatives for every one million people.

In addition, Joseph favored extensive prison reform, annexing Oregon and Texas, extending the United States “from the east to the west sea,” but only if Native Americans gave their consent.

1,500 copies of the pamphlet printed and mailed to the president of the United States and his cabinet, the justices of the Supreme Court, senators, representatives, editors of principal newspapers, postmasters, and other prominent citizens.

In the meantime, William Law and others in Illinois were plotting to take the life of Joseph Smith. Dr. Wall Southwick recounted a meeting he had attended in Carthage, Illinois, wherein the enemies of the Prophet had gathered together from every state in the Union but three. They were concerned that Joseph’s “views on government were widely circulated and took like wildfire.” According to Southwick, they believed that if the Prophet “did not get into the Presidential chair this election, he would be sure to the next time; and if Illinois and Missouri would join together and kill him, they would not be brought to justice for it.” (History of the Church, 6: 605–6.) Dr. Southwick’s statement suggests that the Prophet’s presidential campaign was a contributing cause for his assassination.

Here is a free pdf version of a book detailing the conspiracy involving Thomas Ford and the Whig party. I think the authors try to present their material objectively, they do however show they have an anti-Mormon sentiment when talking about later "Mormon vengeance" and the Mountain Meadows massacre, not bothering to mention things like Brigham Young telling them not to do anything. There is a plethora of documentation, factual information and a comprehensive study of the events. The authors successfully argue the assassination was result of conspiracy of local and state politicians.

Junius and Joseph: Presidential Politics and the Assassination of the First Mormon Prophet

https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt4cgn0s

Thomas Ford, was himself part of the Whig conspiracy to murder Joseph Smith. His narrative in 'A History of Illinois' pretty much says Joseph Smith and the Saints got along very well in Illinois until Joseph got involved in state politics. It was determined that a Mormon prophet's candidacy might disrupt the outcome of the 1844 presidential election. Those involved were supporters of Kentuckian Henry Clay, the elder statesman of the American Whig party, and his 1844 bid for the American presidency. The Expositor was merely being used, by those plotting against the Prophet's life, as ammunition for an entirely different scheme.

The city council declared the Expositor was a public nuisance and threat to the peace, which was not an exaggeration. The city council therefore ordered the press and the paper destroyed, which was legal. Despite the fact that the Expositor's suppression was legal, it appeared high-handed to critics in Warsaw and Carthage. See, Nauvoo was growing so fast, it was rivaling the size of Chicago, natural rivalry with older citizens in neighboring towns like Carthage (the county seat) and Warsaw (the next largest port city) turned to jealousy and hatred as Nauvoo's economic and political power grew. Warsaw and Carthage newspapers called for extermination of the Mormons.

Stopping the press was legal, but burning the type was not. http://en.fairmormon.org/Nauvoo_Expositor

Nauvoo Expositor destruction was a justifiable action of the Mayor and City council and that it was done in a lawful manner and according to the Nauvoo charter. But it was illegal when taking property rights into consideration, which only means the owners could have sued for the damages, but they never did...

But there was no grounds for anyone to even to insinuate wrongdoing on his part, he was charged with inciting a "riot" which was a (non-criminal) civil affair, and that same charge was unsubstantiated in Nauvoo municipal court since the destruction of the press had been orderly. Joseph and others consented to be brought before another court, headed by a (non-Mormon) justice of the peace, Daniel H. Wells. Wells again discharged them, but did not have the authority to acquit them. Joseph Smith then declares martial law in Nauvoo and calls out the militia to protect the city from anti-Mormon mobs.

Governor Thomas Ford believed that only a state trial would calm the furor over the Expositor, so Governor Ford writes to tell Joseph that he must face charges before the same judge that issued the writ for his arrest, because only this will appease the public (not the law) which was in a very hostile community. Facing a death trap, Joseph and Hyrum leave Nauvoo to seek refuge. Joseph and Hyrum first considered appealing to U.S. President John Tyler but instead decided to cross the Mississippi and escape. he was already out of their hands Until they returned in order to protect the church from being despoiled and driven out if he did not, and proclaiming that he was going to his death. Governor Ford persuaded to let himself be arrested and tried for the "riot," So, , he voluntarily recrossed the Mississippi to be taken into custody, knowing he was going to die, saying he would be going "like a lamb to the slaughter" and would be "murdered in cold blood" (HC 6:555, 559).

Joseph and fifteen others therefore received guarantees of safety and presented themselves in Carthage. They were freed on bail pending the October arrival of the circuit court.

However, Joseph and Hyrum were then jailed by a writ issued by Robert F. Smith, a Methodist minister, justice of the peace, and captain of the Carthage Greys militia. So once they stopped at Carthage, he was incarcerated there without bail, despite the Governor's promises of protection and a fair trial, Governor Ford allowed the Smiths to be imprisoned by their enemies on a wholly new charge of "treason" for having declared martial law in Nauvoo, a legal farce.

Stating that he had to "satisfy the people," and "had no doubt but that they would be immediately dismissed" and so did not keep his promise that the prisoners could go with him to Nauvoo. The Governor Ford ignored clear warnings of danger and disbands all the militia companies, except the hostile Carthage Greys, to guard the jail and took the most dependable troops with him to Nauvoo,

Joseph Smith was not Escaping, was not in a Gun Fight and was not a Murderer

During the governor's absence, the discharged Warsaw militia company then attacks the jail. There were between one hundred and two hundred armed men whom blackened their faces with mud and gunpowder, and then stormed the jail. In less than two minutes, they overcame feigned resistance from the Greys (they had loaded their weapons with gunpowder but no bullets), the mob rushed upstairs, and started firing through the closed unlocked door of the cell keeper's bedroom.

John Taylor has talked about this extensively. I think my source is HC 6:519-631. His brother Hyrum Smith was bracing the door shut and was shot in the face through the door, died instantly in Joseph Smith's arms. John Taylor was shot five times, but survived. Willard Richards didn't get hit. After his brother was killed, Joseph realized they were going to kill them all, So while he was being hit in the chest and collarbone with two shots from the open doorway, he fired 3 shots at the doorway, and then went for the window, and while standing at the window, he was shot with two more from people outside the window and he purposely fell out the second story window. The mob then all ran out of the building, sparing those still alive inside. Joseph fell to the ground and sat up waiting for them. There they continued to riddle an innocent and unarmed man with holes. As rumors spread that the Mormons were coming, the mob dispersed.

What does and does not constitute proper prophetic behavior? What exactly should an innocent man's reaction be when faced with a murderous army that unlawfully started firing at him, at his friends and at his family in a confined space? And what was he guilty of at that time that justified his murder? Because two people Joseph hit through the door were wounded, later died from infection, some critics go as far as to call him a murderer who was trying escaping jail. Silly.

In Conclusion, from the Painesville Republican

"Joseph Smith, Jr. for the prejudice against him... shows on the one hand, that a spirit of persecution has existed, and on the other hand it certainly furnishes some evidence that he has for some reason, been falsely accused, and that he is indeed and in truth better than some of his accusers." (Painesville Republican, June 15, 1837)

Edited September 25, 2024 by Pyreaux

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Look at Jeanne d'arc for example. She was also visited by angels and they gave her instructions on what she needed to do. And what she needed to do was winning the war against England. And...because of her angels France won the war against England!

Woah, woah….woah……are you seriously suggesting God wants the French to survive?

Seems unlikely.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

was guilty of brevity a

Levity…he was at times guilty of brevity, but that is often a good thing. 😛 

[Dario_M]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Woah, woah….woah……are you seriously suggesting God wants the French to survive?

Seems unlikely.

Have you not read the storie about Jeane? It's a true storie. She also got visited by angels that told her what to do. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Have you not read the storie about Jeane? It's a true storie. She also got visited by angels that told her what to do. 

Or she was a schizophrenic or had some other imbalance. I have no idea what the true story is.

[Dario_M]

27 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Or she was a schizophrenic or had some other imbalance. I have no idea what the true story is.

But why did she managed to win the war against England? Like her Angels had predicted? Don't you find that odd? 

Edited September 25, 2024 by Dario_M