Why were people so against Joseph Smith.

[Dario_M]

Btw i feel sorry for what have happend with Joseph Smith. But now we have figured out that he wasn't that bad after all we can safely say that this poor guy had so manny false accusations against him. Exactly what my gut feeling was telling me for quite a while.

So now we know this, i still have a hard time understanding why some ex mormons still feel like the LDS community had lied to them. It can't have much to do with Joseph Smith anymore.  Because he is not the fraud that many people think he is. 

Edited September 25, 2024 by Dario_M

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Dario_M said:

But why did she managed to win the war against England? Like her Angels had predicted? Don't you find that odd? 

She didn’t win the war. She was dead long before it concluded. She was a propaganda tool. The dauphin and his savvy mother used her visions as a way to legitimize his claim to the throne. However Joan was seen as dangerous. While treated as either a saint or a heretic the ‘on the ground’ accounts of her paint her as erratic and mentally ill. Charles manipulated events to allow her capture. He knew she was a dangerous symbol. The decision to kill her probably seemed logical but turned out to be a mistake. Once she was dead she was even more useful as a martry with no risk of her erratic nature causing problems.

While she was an important figure I doubt the English would have won even if Joan had never shown up. They were overextended and teetering.

Now Joan is a symbol and one that can be used by almost anyone. During World War 2 she was a heroine to the Vichy government, the Free French resistance under DeGaulle, and the Communist movement opposed to both.

Currently she is used in France as a feminist figure while also a symbol of France’s alt-right. She seems to be a blank vessel to pour your beliefs into these days.

[Snodgrassian]

For some people, the stories about Joseph lead them down a different path than you. The truth is, we don’t know who is telling the truth and who is lying. All sides of the argument have their reasons for believing what they do. 
 

Personally, I can’t give Joseph an easy pass on some parts of his history. The faithful perspective just doesn’t land with me at this time in my life. Maybe it will someday, I am open to it. To me that doesn’t really even matter though. I am in my current status because of other things I personally have witnessed and I just don’t think it is a healthy environment for me or my family. I love my friends and family that still active and I have great relationships with them, I am lucky. I am still the same person I have always been. 
 

@Dario the church has changed and will continue to change. Many believe that should be expected, some believe that reasons for changes point to an alternative outcome with the church. The stories and history of Joseph Smith have never been as accessible as they are today, and the red flags of his history were not always discussed in Church or even easily accessible to all members like it is now. This is one reason why the Church has released the book series “Saints.” It is a much more thorough history of the early church, though some still believe many things are left out. 
 

Religion is complicated yet fascinating. Many people who left are passionate about their experiences, and like me, feel like they were mislead and made critical life decisions based on incomplete information. Many people who left are angry because they lost relationships with loved ones. Just like sports, art, politics, etc. people like to discuss/argue their point of view. That is th point of discussion boards like this.

I learn a bunch for most of the posters of this board, that is why I return to it from time to time.

Dealing with detractors is a part of life, in all avenues of life. It is hurtful at times when it is a topic that is special to you, but opposition is an important part to learning and hopefully strengthening.
 

 

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

She didn’t win the war. She was dead long before it concluded. She was a propaganda tool. The dauphin and his savvy mother used her visions as a way to legitimize his claim to the throne. However Joan was seen as dangerous. While treated as either a saint or a heretic the ‘on the ground’ accounts of her paint her as erratic and mentally ill. Charles manipulated events to allow her capture. He knew she was a dangerous symbol. The decision to kill her probably seemed logical but turned out to be a mistake. Once she was dead she was even more useful as a martry with no risk of her erratic nature causing problems.

Are we talking about the same person? Jeanne did fight in the war as well. Her angels told her what needed to happen and because all the people, soldiers did what she told them to do they won the battle. 

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

While she was an important figure I doubt the English would have won even if Joan had never shown up. They were overextended and teetering.

Now Joan is a symbol and one that can be used by almost anyone. During World War 2 she was a heroine to the Vichy government, the Free French resistance under DeGaulle, and the Communist movement opposed to both.

World war 2? This girl lifed in the 1500s i believe we are not talking about the same person Nehor. 

 

Edited September 25, 2024 by Dario_M

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Are we talking about the same person? Jeanne did fight in the war as well. Her angels told her what needed to happen and because all the people, soldiers did what she told them to do they won the battle.

She participated in some battles. By her own account she did not use a weapon. She carried a banner and functioned almost like a mascot. I don’t mean to downplay the courage that can take. She could get killed doing that and she was eventually captured during a battle. 

She wasn’t a military strategist. That is a myth not supported by the actual account. She was a symbol.

3 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

World war 2? This girl lifed in the 1500s i believe we are not talking about the same person Nehor. 

I was talking about how she is viewed and used as a symbol after her death.

[Dario_M]

57 minutes ago, Snodgrassian said:

For some people, the stories about Joseph lead them down a different path than you. The truth is, we don’t know who is telling the truth and who is lying. All sides of the argument have their reasons for believing what they do. 

 

Yeah that's why i find it super annoying that some people call him a fraud while that isn't even certain. The real truth about Joseph Smith isn't clear because his enemies have manipulated his image. 

57 minutes ago, Snodgrassian said:

Personally, I can’t give Joseph an easy pass on some parts of his history. The faithful perspective just doesn’t land with me at this time in my life. Maybe it will someday, I am open to it. To me that doesn’t really even matter though. I am in my current status because of other things I personally have witnessed and I just don’t think it is a healthy environment for me or my family. I love my friends and family that still active and I have great relationships with them, I am lucky. I am still the same person I have always been. 
 

Well...i'm so happy for you. 

57 minutes ago, Snodgrassian said:

@Dario the church has changed and will continue to change. Many believe that should be expected, some believe that reasons for changes point to an alternative outcome with the church. The stories and history of Joseph Smith have never been as accessible as they are today, and the red flags of his history were not always discussed in Church or even easily accessible to all members like it is now. This is one reason why the Church has released the book series “Saints.” It is a much more thorough history of the early church, though some still believe many things are left out. 
 

Religion is complicated yet fascinating. Many people who left are passionate about their experiences, and like me, feel like they were mislead

 

In wich way has the church mislead you then? Isn't it just so that you wanted to follow the herd? Because... you know...Nowadays it is fashionable to leave the LDS church. Everyone encourages it. 

57 minutes ago, Snodgrassian said:

and made critical life decisions based on incomplete information. Many people who left are angry because they lost relationships with loved ones. Just like sports, art, politics, etc. people like to discuss/argue their point of view. That is th point of discussion boards like this.

That's not really the church fault. That's more the problem within the familys itself. The church can't do anything about that. 

57 minutes ago, Snodgrassian said:

I learn a bunch for most of the posters of this board, that is why I return to it from time to time.

Okay. 

 

Edited September 25, 2024 by Dario_M

[Dario_M]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

She participated in some battles. By her own account she did not use a weapon. She carried a banner and functioned almost like a mascot. I don’t mean to downplay the courage that can take. She could get killed doing that and she was eventually captured during a battle. 

Okay  ....yeah luckily we're talking about the same person. 

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

She wasn’t a military strategist. That is a myth not supported by the actual account. She was a symbol.

 

Okay i didn't knew that.

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I was talking about how she is viewed and used as a symbol after her death.

Yeah she died on the stake.

[CV75]

On 9/24/2024 at 1:52 AM, Dario_M said:

I just had read a link about the life of Joseph Smith. @Calm had given me that link so i could study a bit about Joseph Smiths life. And i think he had a really tough life. People did not believed him when he told them about his revelations from God. When God told Joseph Smith that he needed to decipher the golden plates, a lot of people tried to steel the golden plates because they wanted to make money from it. Later on his translated scriptures were stolen, so it's quite well posible that his original storie has been changed  Joseph Smith has been beaten up as well aften from what i've red. Till the moment he got murdered. Why were people so horible for him? Why had he so many enemies. Even now most people can't say 1 positive thing about Joseh Smith. I don't understand why. That poor guy had so many enemies. It's just said if i think about it. All he wanne do was restore a new church. As God had told Joseph Smith to do. But so many people were against his mission. Mission Restore. 💪

From what I’ve seen, the reasons for dissatisfaction seem to be the history and narrative for its founding (that Joseph Smith lied); The Book of Mormon; revisited race issues (the ban); unmet spiritual needs (a lot of competition out there); changes in beliefs and/or conversion to another faith; life crises; experiencing poor leadership; feeling judged or misunderstood by other members; a sense of incompatibility with their LGBTQ identity; parents were naïve, parochial and uniformed about the real world (multi-generational families),or used the Church as a crutch or an escape from life failure or trauma (convert families). Many have navigated and reconciled these issues so as to remain in the Church. I would say the fewest people need a boogeyman or a punching bag to deal with their negative feelings, but they certainly make themselves known! And then of course there is spiritual laziness, selfishness and materialism, sin, and so forth – these folks probably don’t care enough to say anything and just move on.

Social issues change over time, but I think the more interpersonal reasons, reflecting the worst of human nature, have been part of the Church experience from the beginning, along with the best. People face opposition in all things, and choose what to do about it.

We may make decisions whatever the information and opportunity we have at hand, but bias really drives these decisions, and bias is founded in the complex array of mental states and psychological modules employed within the context of our personalities and developmental stages, some of which are spiritual, whether that term is used in a religious or secular sense.

[Dario_M]

9 minutes ago, CV75 said:

From what I’ve seen, the reasons for dissatisfaction seem to be the history and narrative for its founding (that Joseph Smith lied); The Book of Mormon; revisited race issues (the ban); unmet spiritual needs (a lot of competition out there); changes in beliefs and/or conversion to another faith; life crises; experiencing poor leadership; feeling judged or misunderstood by other members; a sense of incompatibility with their LGBTQ identity; parents were naïve, parochial and uniformed about the real world (multi-generational families),or used the Church as a crutch or an escape from life failure or trauma (convert families). Many have navigated and reconciled these issues so as to remain in the Church. I would say the fewest people need a boogeyman or a punching bag to deal with their negative feelings, but they certainly make themselves known! And then of course there is spiritual laziness, selfishness and materialism, sin, and so forth – these folks probably don’t care enough to say anything and just move on.

I'm agree. There are so many reasons why people leave the church. But i always cringe when people say that they have left the church because Joseph Smith was a fraud. Or people who say that they left because the church is an cult. Those people think that they are well informt. But they aren't. 🧐

9 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Social issues change over time, but I think the more interpersonal reasons, reflecting the worst of human nature, have been part of the Church experience from the beginning, along with the best. People face opposition in all things, and choose what to do about it.

Well...my experience in the church is that people are really nice though. And even wanna please others (like me😇). I've mostely conflicts with people outside of the church. Allthough it's not that bad in the Netherlands though. But when i was in Portugal life was a disaster for me. 

9 minutes ago, CV75 said:

We may make decisions whatever the information and opportunity we have at hand, but bias really drives these decisions, and bias is founded in the complex array of mental states and psychological modules employed within the context of our personalities and developmental stages, some of which are spiritual, whether that term is used in a religious or secular sense.

Yea agree. 

[CV75]

16 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

I'm agree. There are so many reasons why people leave the church. But i always cringe when people say that they have left the church because Joseph Smith was a fraud. Or people who say that they left because the church is an cult. Those people think that they are well informt. But they aren't. 🧐

Well...my experience in the church is that people are really nice though. And even wanna please others (like me😇). I've mostely conflicts with people outside of the church. Allthough it's not that bad in the Netherlands though. But when i was in Portugal life was a disaster for me. 

Yea agree. 

By and large, the people in the Church are among the finest I know. No other people, as a group, have consistently (for over 50 years from the time of my conversion), treated me in as Christlike a fashion!

[Dario_M]

27 minutes ago, CV75 said:

By and large, the people in the Church are among the finest I know. No other people, as a group, have consistently (for over 50 years from the time of my conversion), treated me in as Christlike a fashion!

Is that so. Well...i'm really happy for then. 

But uhm.. are you still in the church? Or havd you also left the church? Sorry for my curiousity. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

Is that so. Well...i'm really happy for then. 

But uhm.. are you still in the church? Or havd you also left the church? Sorry for my curiousity. 

I am in the Church, happily, and plan to remain so (on both counts)! --  

[Dario_M]

1 minute ago, CV75 said:

I am in the Church, happily, and plan to remain so (on both counts)! --  

Aawh that's good brother. 💪 it's refreshing to know that there are still real church members out there. 

[manol]

On 9/24/2024 at 8:44 AM, Dario_M said:

Members on the board!? What do you think about Joseph Smith? And do you like his character? 

I am no longer a member of the LDS Church.  I like many of the teachings that came through Joseph Smith.   I find a great deal of value in many of them.

I do not feel entirely qualified to evaluate his character because I cannot clearly see what was in his heart.  My impression of him is actually very positive.  Not that I think he was infallible, but overall I think he was the real deal. 

That being said, there are controversial topics on which I'd really like to sit down with him and hear his side of the story.  I will probably have to stand in line for that because my guess is a lot of people will want to sit down and have a conversation with him, and most of them are going to be in line ahead of me.

@Dario_M if the Holy Spirit tells you that what came through Joseph Smith (the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants, the LDS Church, and so forth) is the path of greatest light for YOU, then FOLLOW THAT PATH!! 

[Dario_M]

5 hours ago, manol said:

I am no longer a member of the LDS Church.  I like many of the teachings that came through Joseph Smith.   I find a great deal of value in many of them.

You're not a member anymore? 

5 hours ago, manol said:

I do not feel entirely qualified to evaluate his character because I cannot clearly see what was in his heart.  My impression of him is actually very positive.  Not that I think he was infallible, but overall I think he was the real deal. 

Yeah i believe he was a good person too. 

5 hours ago, manol said:

That being said, there are controversial topics on which I'd really like to sit down with him and hear his side of the story.  I will probably have to stand in line for that because my guess is a lot of people will want to sit down and have a conversation with him, and most of them are going to be in line ahead of me.

Uhm...a conversation with who? 

 

5 hours ago, manol said:

@Dario_M if the Holy Spirit tells you that what came through Joseph Smith (the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants, the LDS Church, and so forth) is the path of greatest light for YOU, then FOLLOW THAT PATH!! 

I will i will. The LDS church always have done me good. Thank you for your honest opinion. 

Edited September 26, 2024 by Dario_M