Caffeinated soda

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, california boy said:

some of the girls copped to drinking a 44-ounce soda up to six times a week.

But that could be sugar free. Did the young women (would young men this age be referred to as “boys”, I wonder ) specify it was sugar in their comments or was it assumed?

Edited September 19, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, california boy said:

I do think the scientific evidence of drinking coffee being more healthy than soda drinks is pretty conclusive.  

Like sparkling water, what you add to coffee affects the benefits/costs. A lot of people add sugar and unhealthy fats to their coffee. 

I don’t think one can conclude across the board that coffee drinking in large amounts is healthier than soda drinking in large amounts. 44 oz of coffee 6 times a week…what’s that around 38 cups of coffee weekly even without the additions of creamer, sugar or flavorings.  I suspect that’s beyond the healthy limit.  Of course, most people don’t drink even iced coffee in that amount, but do most people drink soda in that amount?

Edited September 19, 2024 by Calm

[Rain]

3 minutes ago, california boy said:

Of course.  When the effects of caffeine has come up with friends, what I have learned is that it effects everyone differently.

I agree. I felt I personally needed to quit caffeine years ago and found my kidney levels stabilized, but I don't think everyone needs to give it up for their kidneys.

3 minutes ago, california boy said:

 A lot of people can only have caffeine in the mornings.  Others have an afternoon cutoff.  My partner can have a cup of coffee right before he goes to bed and sleeps like a baby.   

None of that negates the health benefits of coffee that most people get and that personal decision people can make about their health is instead tied to temple worthiness.

 

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, california boy said:

.  My partner can have a cup of coffee right before he goes to bed and sleeps like a baby.   

Sleep studies show that while it may feel that way, it usually isn’t.  I will try and find a link though I read that months ago, so tell me if it’s no big deal so I don’t have to dig that hard. 

I am not mentioning this as a defense for soda, but just for health info. I hardly ever drink soda, if sugared I find it a waste of calories and if sugar free it tastes like crap.  I think the consumption levels of soda are ridiculous, especially since I just came across allegedly new research suggesting the low nutrient density but tasty foods eaten in large amounts much actually damage the nerves that help with satiation.  Need to see that confirmed before I will make the claim, but if so, we are not doing our kids or ourselves favors to allow long term consumption of high sugar products (I believe occasional indulgence is not an issue) whether it’s soda or sugar/fat laden coffee.

Edited September 19, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

Oh great, another health risk for kids…

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Some retailers sell pure caffeine powder in bulk. It is marketed as a dietary supplement. Parents need to be aware that many teens and young adults take it for an energy boost. Others consume caffeine powder in an attempt to enhance performance or lose weight.

Caffeine powder is highly potent, and a safe serving size is extremely small. It is nearly impossible to measure caffeine powder accurately in the home. As a result the risk of an accidental, lethal overdose is high.

https://sleepeducation.org/sleep-caffeine/#:~:text=Caffeine also can reduce the,be stronger in older adults.

[Calm]

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Up to 500 mg of caffeine can be found in commercially available 16-oz servings of brewed coffee.⁸ The use of similarly high doses of caffeine-containing beverages, including energy drinks has led to a doubling of caffeine-related emergency department visits from 2007-2011.⁹The increase in ED visits in association with cardiovascular and other adverse events has been labeled a “rising public health problem in the US” and has led the Food and Drug Administration to investigate the cardiovascular safety of high caffeine content beverages.¹⁰Importantly, the adverse effects of caffeine intake are not limited to the cardiovascular system but also produce significant sleep disruptive effects, particularly when taken later in the day or when multiple doses are utilized.¹¹One recent population-based study of 18- to 58-year-olds (mean age = 28.5 years of age) estimated that 90% of individuals consume caffeine in the afternoon (12:00-18:00) and 68.5% of people consume caffeine in the evening (18:00-00:00).¹²

https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.3170#:~:text=The magnitude of reduction in,6 hours prior to bedtime.

Quote

 

Caffeine content in beverages and foods is increasing in terms of dose and availability, with recent estimates of total daily caffeine consumption suggesting that the average person consumes 319.32 ± 180.94 mg of caffeine per day.¹² Information on the sleep-disrupting effects of high doses of caffeine taken in the afternoon and early evening is important, given the increasingly popular use of caffeinated energy drinks and the high caffeine content of premium coffee.¹³ Such investigations are also critical due to increased caffeine use in younger age groups, where chronic sleep restriction is also increasingly common.^8,14,15 Indeed, recent data show that in younger samples, 37% report first use of caffeine during the day at 17:00 or later.¹⁶

 

Edited September 19, 2024 by Calm

[california boy]

49 minutes ago, Calm said:

Sleep studies show that while it may feel that way, it usually isn’t.  I will try and find a link though I read that months ago, so tell me if it’s no big deal so I don’t have to dig that hard. 

I am not mentioning this as a defense for soda, but just for health info. I hardly ever drink soda, if sugared I find it a waste of calories and if sugar free it tastes like crap.  I think the consumption levels of soda are ridiculous, especially since I just came across allegedly new research suggesting the low nutrient density but tasty foods eaten in large amounts much actually damage the nerves that help with satiation.  Need to see that confirmed before I will make the claim, but if so, we are not doing our kids or ourselves favors to allow long term consumption of high sugar products (I believe occasional indulgence is not an issue) whether it’s soda or sugar/fat laden coffee.

I don't think it would really matter much to me because I am just going on what my partner does and says.  Sometimes he does have difficulty getting to sleep on occasion, but not usually when he drinks coffee close to bed time.  I personally drink very little coffee, so I can't really comment on drinking it before bed, but I do occasionally have a diet Coke right before going to bed.  That doesn't seem to effect me either.  In general, I am one of those guys who as soon as I shut my eyes, I  am out like a light.

 

ETA: I just saw your second post listing the study that you mentioned.  It kinda supports what I have seen.  Not everyone has a problem sleeping when having caffeine late in the evening.  From your post.  Looks like 68.5%  of people are able to consume caffeine in the evening.  That is a much higher percentage than I thought it would be.

Quote

One recent population-based study of 18- to 58-year-olds (mean age = 28.5 years of age) estimated that 90% of individuals consume caffeine in the afternoon (12:00-18:00) and 68.5% of people consume caffeine in the evening (18:00-00:00)

Edited September 19, 2024 by california boy

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I just ran across this article that talks about how some Mormons handle the Word of Wisdom and the real health issues involved. Oddly, this came from seeing how some members heavily use soda on the whole "Mormon Wives" series.  I have seen members of my own family use excessive amounts of soda but would feel like they were going to hell if they had a cup of coffee.  Those same siblings also wonder why they have a hard problem with their weight.  From the article

 

 

Also, in the Mormon culture, caffeine seems to be vilified as being something to be avoided at all costs.  The science shows that while caffeine in large quantities may not be good for everyone, it does have many positive reasons for consuming it.  From Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine.  And from the Mayo Clinic.

My point is that having caffeine in one's diet may actually be a very important health benefit to some people.  To make it a litmus test of being worthy to go to the temple seems very arbitrary and actually counter to the idea of a good health code to live by. Too bad members are not allowed to make this personal choice for themselves.

Why are they harping on sugar stuff though?  That makes no sense and makes the author sound like they are really grasping for straws.  

 

 

 

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, california boy said:

I don't think it would really matter much to me because I am just going on what my partner does and says.  Sometimes he does have difficulty getting to sleep on occasion, but not usually when he drinks coffee close to bed time.  I personally drink very little coffee, so I can't really comment on drinking it before bed, but I do occasionally have a diet Coke right before going to bed.  That doesn't seem to effect me either.  In general, I am one of those guys who as soon as I shut my eyes, I  am out like a light.

 

ETA: I just saw your second post listing the study that you mentioned.  It kinda supports what I have seen.  Not everyone has a problem sleeping when having caffeine late in the evening.  From your post.  Looks like 68.5%  of people are able to consume caffeine in the evening.  That is a much higher percentage than I thought it would be.

I am very fussy about this because we have a sleep problem epidemic, kids’ natural sleep cycles are being destroyed by early morning school (shouldn’t start before ten imo) and because my doctors ignored it was a sleep problem for decades leading my own issue to get severe when if they had cared more about quality of sleep, I might be relatively normal going off of my siblings. 

Sleep quality is not just about how fast you get to sleep, but if you get enough time in the deeper sleep stages for healing to occur, etc. The study I referred to and need to find a link to said even when the person slept the same amount, they did not get as deep as sleep as usual if taking caffeine later even when they thought they were.

This would likely show up as an health issue if late consumption was habitual rather than occasional.

I was getting 13 hours of sleep when I went to the doctors first and still was suffering sleep deprivation because I never went into deep sleep (one of the sleep docs analyzed my study 20 years later as me running a marathon all night).  My husband was a deep sleeper, within 5 minutes of laying down back then, so we were clueless about this except for the fact I often was ripping off the sheets and occasionally ended up upside down on the bed.  Other than that, I thought I was having great sleep once I was asleep.  Sleep is more complicated than time the lights go out (as I am sure you know, just have to say it).

Edited September 19, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Sleep studies show that while it may feel that way [sleep is not affected], it usually isn’t.  I will try and find a link though I read that months ago, so tell me if it’s no big deal so I don’t have to dig that hard. 

 

I think this is where I saw it.  Because it’s Huberman who sometimes pushes the claims too far, I am waiting on seeing more info on it.  But just sharing this info as a caution as poorer quality sleep followed by caffeine use can be a vicious cycle as can other sleep issues.  Also including the caution not to ingest caffeine too soon.

Watch the clip for the explanation, I was hoping for a transcript.  In brief, Walker*** says it drops the depth quality by about 30%, which is equivalent to ten years of aging (not sure what that last means).  They go on to talk about alcohol.  Definitely not helpful for sleep.  Iirc, the suggestion was to if you want to drink alcohol on a regular basis, have it for breakfast to not affect sleep.  Needs to be very occasional because it fragments sleep.  You might not remember waking up, but you will be.  It also blocks REM sleep, which is necessary for emotional health.  Growth hormone production can drop as well.  Testosterone can be reduced….

Quote

Specifically, for caffeine, Dr. Huberman mentions that it's best to wait 90 to 120 minutes after waking before ingesting caffeine, especially if you haven't gotten enough sleep, to prevent disruption of your sleep architecture 2.

In terms of when to stop drinking caffeine during the day, the advice varies based on individual sensitivity. Dr. Huberman notes that for some people, consuming caffeine as late as 4 or 5 PM does not affect their ability to fall asleep 3. However, he emphasizes that research shows the architecture and depth of sleep may be compromised, even if you are able to fall and stay asleep. For better sleep quality, it is ideal to stop caffeine intake at least eight hours before bed, and preferably 10 to 12 hours before going to sleep 4.

I should also mention some people have paradoxical effects with caffeine, so I am not insisting this is the case for everyone.  It may be helpful with ADHD, but I don’t know if it has been studied for sleep for ADHD.  Just urging caution and to pay attention to more than just time of falling asleep.

https://ai.hubermanlab.com/s/xfOoTWki

***https://psychology.berkeley.edu/people/matthew-p-walker

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Walker_(scientist)

Edited September 19, 2024 by Calm

[california boy]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Why are they harping on sugar stuff though?  That makes no sense and makes the author sound like they are really grasping for straws.  

I don't know for sure, but I think it is probably because many Mormons think they are living this healthy diet by not drinking coffee, when other eating habits like drinking 44oz of soda daily has a much bigger risk of causing health problems.  

There are numerous studies showing coffee can actually be beneficial to body health.  I know of no study. that shows heavy amounts of soda are a healthy choice.

[Raingirl]

4 minutes ago, california boy said:

I don't know for sure, but I think it is probably because many Mormons think they are living this healthy diet by not drinking coffee, when other eating habits like drinking 44oz of soda daily has a much bigger risk of causing health problems.  

There are numerous studies showing coffee can actually be beneficial to body health.  I know of no study. that shows heavy amounts of soda are a healthy choice.

When I was diagnosed with liver disease, I was given dietary guidelines.  They, of course, included a list of things not to eat.  It also included instructions to drink x amount of coffee daily.  I shared this information with a few people in the church.  The most common reaction was the assumption that I would decline to add coffee to my diet.  

[california boy]

4 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

When I was diagnosed with liver disease, I was given dietary guidelines.  They, of course, included a list of things not to eat.  It also included instructions to drink x amount of coffee daily.  I shared this information with a few people in the church.  The most common reaction was the assumption that I would decline to add coffee to my diet.  

I am not surprised.  The Church has demonized coffee for decades.  It is difficult to all the sudden realize that it can have health benefits.  

I remember visiting my grandfather when I was young.  He used to drink decaffeinated Sanka in the mornings with his breakfast.  I was sure he would never make it to the Celestial Kingdom.  I look back on that now and realize how utterly ridiculous that idea was, as if nothing else he ever did in his life mattered.  

[bluebell]

17 minutes ago, california boy said:

I don't know for sure, but I think it is probably because many Mormons think they are living this healthy diet by not drinking coffee, when other eating habits like drinking 44oz of soda daily has a much bigger risk of causing health problems.  

There are numerous studies showing coffee can actually be beneficial to body health.  I know of no study. that shows heavy amounts of soda are a healthy choice.

Do many mormons think that though? 

I don't actually know any members who aren't aware of how unhealthy sugar soda is, or that believe that not drinking coffee alone (or tea) makes a person healthy.  You could probably make an argument for members believing that when it comes to alcohol, but I've never really see it with coffee (but there are probably a few members out there who have espoused the idea).

We do believe that the Wow is a law of health in general but when you ask people why we don't drink coffee a lot of members seem to be more comfortable seeing is an example of obedience rather than health.

[Malc]

On 9/18/2024 at 6:51 PM, MustardSeed said:

One thing I do know for sure is when my dad was called to be a bishop in the 1980s, he was told that he could no longer drink Coke. (He was a Pepsi drinker anyway lol but also obedient so he abstain while he served.). 
he also had to shave his beard. It was a tough time for our family.🤪

In the mid 70s I was told I could not have a Temple Recommend until I shaved off the beard that I had had for almost my entire adult life.

I went back the next day, clean shaven, and my wife cried herself to sleep that night.

[Malc]

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Edited September 20, 2024 by Malc
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[Malc]

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Edited September 20, 2024 by Malc
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[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, Malc said:

In the mid 70s I was told I could not have a Temple Recommend until I shaved off the beard that I had had for almost my entire adult life.

I went back the next day, clean shaven, and my wife cried herself to sleep that night.

That is crazy.  I've never heard that before.  Lots of people having to shave to work in the temple, but I've never heard of it just to attend.  That policy must not have lasted very long.

[Stargazer]

45 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

When I was diagnosed with liver disease, I was given dietary guidelines.  They, of course, included a list of things not to eat.  It also included instructions to drink x amount of coffee daily.  I shared this information with a few people in the church.  The most common reaction was the assumption that I would decline to add coffee to my diet.  

Heh. I would expect you to add coffee. 

The Word of Wisdom is not the gospel. 

When my wife's cancer had advanced past the point where the pain wasn't being covered by the meds they had been giving her, and the final med (can't remember which one now) was not yet being prescribed, she bridged the gap with marijuana. That along with the prescribed meds she did have covered the gap for about three weeks, and then we went to the final med and she stopped the MJ because it wasn't needed. By the point, MJ was legal in our state, so no law was being broken. I felt no WoW violation was occurring.

 

[Malc]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That is crazy.  I've never heard that before.  Lots of people having to shave to work in the temple, but I've never heard of it just to attend.  That policy must not have lasted very long.

This, like many other crazy things, happened in Scotland.

My wife, who was brought up in the church in Mexico, sometimes cannot decide whether to laugh or cry at some of the stories I tell her from that time. 

Unfortunately, as a Branch President, and as a counselor in a District Presidency, I thought, said, and did things that I'm now ashamed of - especially my judgmental attitude. My only real defence is that I joined the church in that environment, and had nothing to compare my experiences with.

[Stargazer]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That is crazy.  I've never heard that before.  Lots of people having to shave to work in the temple, but I've never heard of it just to attend.  That policy must not have lasted very long.

That is very weird. It had to be a very local thing. When they first organized the Düsseldorf stake in Germany in 1972ish, the branch president of the Oberhausen branch was rocking a nice beard. The GA who organized the stake told him when calling him to be the bishop that normally they asked bishopric members to shave their beards, but he thought this brother's beard was fine, and said he could keep it. He had had a temple recommend before this. 

 

[Malc]

 

Quote

 

In 1975, Vaughn J. Featherstone made it clear in a conference address that the 1972 bulletin from the First Presidency on prohibiting soft drinks with caffeine was in full effect.

I was over in England a while back and a bishop asked me, “What is the Church’s stand on cola drinks?” I said, “Well, I can’t remember the exact wording of the bulletin, but I remember seeing the bulletin when I was a stake president. The Church, of course, advises against them.”

He said, “Well, I have read the Priesthood Bulletin, but that isn’t what it says to me.”

And I said, “Would you get your Priesthood Bulletin? Let’s read it together.” And so we found under the heading “Cola Drinks”: “… the leaders of the Church have advised, and we do now specifically advise, against use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs. …” (The Priesthood Bulletin, Feb. 1972, p. 4.)

He said, “Well, you see, that doesn’t mean cola.”

I said, “Well, I guess you will have to come to your own grips with that, but to me, there is no question.” You see, there can’t be the slightest particle of rebellion, and in him there is. We can find loopholes in a lot of things if we want to bend the rules of the Church.

 

 

https://mormonscholar.org/is-caffeine-against-the-word-of-wisdom/

[Calm]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

because many Mormons think they are living this healthy diet by not drinking coffee, when other eating habits like drinking 44oz of soda daily has a much bigger risk of causing health problems.  

 

But the young women from the description seemed to acknowledge that this was a guilty pleasure if I interpreted the commentary correctly rather than promoting it as healthy.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Malc said:

In the mid 70s I was told I could not have a Temple Recommend until I shaved off the beard that I had had for almost my entire adult life.

I went back the next day, clean shaven, and my wife cried herself to sleep that night.

Had to have been local, I am certain I knew men with beards going to the temple when a teen, but admit it may be a false memory.  My husband had a beard oof and on by mid 80s, solid by late 80s iirc and had no issues ever with a temple recommend, though had to shave it when serving in a bishopric and as a high councilor, urgh….

I feel for your wife, but my reaction was anger that the Stake President condescendingly made it into a test of obedience to his personal leadership as if accepting the calling wasn’t enough.  If he had just said “I would like that, yes” or “it’s a rule”, I would have had little problem with it as I accept there are benefits to a uniform look plus he was the SP and if his leadership style included policing beards, so be it and while I am not into conforming for the sake of conforming, I get that my husband doesn’t care, but to make it about my and my husband’s righteousness to submit to him personally in obedience, equating faithfulness to giving in to his preferences….yeah, that pissed me off. 

added:  I see for you it was in Scotland.  

I love my husband, but he looks like a teddy bear unshaven.  I much prefer the distinguished professor look of a nicely trimmed beard.  Especially given he is a distinguished professor.  Feels better to touch as well than when he needed a shave, which he would by evening.

I have been angry at leaders just a few times in my life.  That was one, the other I remember was when the bishop flippantly dismissed my concerns about letting the Scouts (13 of them) go off on an overnight camp somewhere in the mountains in an old beat up van with one leader, contrary to the Church and Scouts Canada’s regulations….like in set in stone regulation.  If I had reported it, I would not have been surprised if Scouts Canada had made moves to pull the ward’s permission to host a troop.  Back then it didn’t occur to me to threatened to report it outside the Church, I was so flabbergasted that the bishop of the ward, the protector of the church’s wishes at the local level would so casually ignore church rules.

Edited September 20, 2024 by Calm

[bluebell]

59 minutes ago, Malc said:

 

 

https://mormonscholar.org/is-caffeine-against-the-word-of-wisdom/

I'm not seeing 'advised not to' and 'prohibited' to be at all the same thing.  I think Featherstone was playing a little fast and loose with that interpretation.