Anti LDS sites that make a lot of money off their youtubes/podcasts that are against the church.

[Teancum]

21 hours ago, Frank11 said:

And John Dehlin is unwittingly helping with this too.

Dehlin would be the first one to say that he would be pleased for anything he has or is doing to have impacted changes for the positive in the church.  But I guess positive is in the eye of the beholder.

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Dude has an axe to grind, a chip on his shoulder, a pre-concluded conclusion, a bias against for-profit companies, and nothing else.  Dude makes the classic blunder of asserting "the company charges a lot, therefore the owners must be rich", and mistaking his assertion for proof.  But all he really discovers, is that Mormons are building Mormon temples. 

Knowing some of the contractors that do church work and some about their owners, it is pretty clear some are making a substantial sum of $$ doing construction work for the church.

[Teancum]

18 minutes ago, rpn said:

But tithing is giving wholly to God through the church, not to any church leaders.   (Yes I know that some of tithing reaches those who serve full time or who otherwise wouldn't have rent or other things.)

So what?  That does not negate my point.

[smac97]

19 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Dehlin would be the first one to say that he would be pleased for anything he has or is doing to have impacted changes for the positive in the church.  

I don't believe this a jot.

[LoudmouthMormon]

11 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Knowing some of the contractors that do church work and some about their owners, it is pretty clear some are making a substantial sum of $$ doing construction work for the church.

And would you say they are "getting rich"?   If so, please share what you consider that bar.  The word means different things to different people.

I remember, for example, that certain folks used to rail on how it was unfair to be a millionaire. That sort of talk died down substantially about 5-7 years ago, coincidentally about the same time one of the louder and better-known complainers became one.  Now it's unfair to be a billionaire.  Millionaires are ok, what with having to save for retirement, and building equity in our homes and all that.

Open question to anyone: When you think about an individual working for an employer that builds temples being a millionaire, does your brow furrow with disapproval as you consider things like lucrative kickbacks or nefarious backroom deals involving tithing money?

[Teancum]

4 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

And would you say they are "getting rich"?   If so, please share what you consider that bar.  The word means different things to different people.

I remember, for example, that certain folks used to rail on how it was unfair to be a millionaire. That sort of talk died down substantially about 5-7 years ago, coincidentally about the same time one of the louder and better-known complainers became one.  Now it's unfair to be a billionaire.  Millionaires are ok, what with having to save for retirement, and building equity in our homes and all that.

Open question to anyone: When you think about an individual working for an employer that builds temples being a millionaire, does your brow furrow with disapproval as you consider things like lucrative kickbacks or nefarious backroom deals involving tithing money?

I do not have a definition of getting rich.  Means different things to different people.  Some people would view me as rich.  I would view myself as upper middle class.  But for someone living paycheck to paycheck I imagine I would appear rich to them.

And I am not upset at all about construction contractors making money building for the church.  Someone needs to be hired to do it. The main question is whether or not a preference is given to those with family or other connections to the church.  That may raise eyebrows. No I do not think there are nefarious backroom deals involving tithing. 

[Teancum]

12 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I don't believe this a jot.

Meh.  I don't care. Just my opinion based on what he says.  He could be lying.

[Analytics]

On 8/18/2024 at 10:49 AM, Tacenda said:

 

My reactions...

0:35: “the act of monetizing the loss of faith has become a thriving industry...the top organization critical of our church made three-quarters of a million dollars [in gross revenue]."

Either this guy doesn’t know what the term “thriving industry” means, or he is hoping his listener does not. Less than a million dollars is a tiny amount of revenue. And this is the largest organization of only a handful in the entire “industry”? 

3:45: “yes, the church has significant reserves. And what do they do with those reserves? They spend over $1 billion a year in philanthropy, helping people..."

This is patently dishonest. The $1 billion dollars doesn’t come from the “reserves.” It comes directly from fast offering donations, tithing donations, and other humanitarian donations. 100% of the investment income from the reserves goes straight back to commercial investments to make the reserves even bigger. 

This whole thing is so misguided. It presumes that building faith is good and destroying faith is evil. The ironic part about this is that if the Church wasn’t dishonest and manipulative in the first place, people wouldn’t feel deceived and angry when they decide it isn’t for them. So apparently, this guy thinks he is being righteous by lying about the Church’s reserves because that is intended to build faith, but it is evil to tell the truth about the reserves because that harms faith. 

His moral compass needs calibration.

 

Edited August 22, 2024 by Analytics

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Analytics said:

My reactions...

0:35: “the act of monetizing the loss of faith has become a thriving industry...the top organization critical of our church made three-quarters of a million dollars [in gross revenue]."

Either this guy doesn’t know what the term “thriving industry” means, or he is hoping his listener does not. Less than a million dollars is a tiny amount of revenue. And this is the largest organization of only a handful in the entire “industry”? 

3:45: “yes, the church has significant reserves. And what do they do with those reserves? They spend over $1 billion a year in philanthropy, helping people..."

This is patently dishonest. The $1 billion dollars doesn’t come from the “reserves.” It comes directly from fast offering donations, tithing donations, and other humanitarian donations. 100% of the investment income from the reserves goes straight back to commercial investments to make the reserves even bigger. 

This whole thing is so misguided. It presumes that building faith is good and destroying faith is evil. The ironic part about this is that if the Church wasn’t dishonest and manipulative in the first place, people wouldn’t feel deceived and angry when they decide it isn’t for them. So apparently, this guy thinks he is being righteous by lying about the Church’s reserves because that is intended to build faith, but it is evil to tell the truth about the reserves because that harms faith. 

His moral compass needs calibration.

 

Good points. I guess the church can redeem itself and continue making better choices.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Analytics said:

Either this guy doesn’t know what the term “thriving industry” means, or he is hoping his listener does not. Less than a million dollars is a tiny amount of revenue. And this is the largest organization of only a handful in the entire “industry”? 

Wouldn’t that depend on how many people are involved or rather get paid?

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Wouldn’t that depend on how many people are involved or rather get paid?

I was wondering the same.  Thriving generally means flourishing and/or growing.  Considering the increase of anti-mormon youtubes, instagrams, and tiktox over the last couple of years, thriving would seem like an accurate word.  I also don't understand how a quarter of a million for one organization isn't accurately described as thriving either.  If my neighbors honey business was making that much, thriving would be the perfect word.

[Analytics]

53 minutes ago, Calm said:

Wouldn’t that depend on how many people are involved or rather get paid?

46 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I was wondering the same.  Thriving generally means flourishing and/or growing.  Considering the increase of anti-mormon youtubes, instagrams, and tiktox over the last couple of years, thriving would seem like an accurate word.  I also don't understand how a quarter of a million for one organization isn't accurately described as thriving either.  If my neighbors honey business was making that much, thriving would be the perfect word.

The video we’re talking about was made by Ron C. Rhodes, who wrote an Interpreter paper on the same topic, An Analysis of the Financial Incentives in Attacking the Restoration. According to that paper, the entire “industry” he’s talking about contains two organizations, Mormon Stories with $740k of revenue, and Mormon Discussions with a total revenue of $327k. Adding that up, this entire thriving “industry” has a revenue of a hair over $1 million per year.

Throw the entire “industry” together and it would qualify as a successful small business that, when compared to other successful small business, is smaller than average.

In contrast, the U.S. honey industry is $350 million per year, and the market for electric cars is something like $80 billion per year.

The two top earners in this “industry" are the CEO’s of the two organizations, John Dehlin and Bill Reel, who make $234k and $100k per year, respectively. To many people that may sound like a lot of money, but compared to what they could both make in the private sector, it really isn’t. The assertion that John Dehlin walked away from his career at places like Microsoft and Bain to go into the Mormon podcast business because that’s where the real money is just ludicrous.

I’d guess this entire “industry” has about 15 full-time equivalent employees who make, on average, $50k per year. That isn’t bad, I guess. But my point remains--the extraordinarily few people who went into this didn’t do so in order to get rich.

Dehlin has been successful, but his success isn’t measured in dollars and isn’t driven by causing faith crises. His success is driven by having really smart and interesting people on as guests.

[Duncan]

19 minutes ago, Analytics said:

The video we’re talking about was made by Ron C. Rhodes, who wrote an Interpreter paper on the same topic, An Analysis of the Financial Incentives in Attacking the Restoration. According to that paper, the entire “industry” he’s talking about contains two organizations, Mormon Stories with $740k of revenue, and Mormon Discussions with a total revenue of $327k. Adding that up, this entire thriving “industry” has a revenue of a hair over $1 million per year.

Throw the entire “industry” together and it would qualify as a successful small business that, when compared to other successful small business, is smaller than average.

In contrast, the U.S. honey industry is $350 million per year, and the market for electric cars is something like $80 billion per year.

The two top earners in this “industry" are the CEO’s of the two organizations, John Dehlin and Bill Reel, who make $234k and $100k per year, respectively. To many people that may sound like a lot of money, but compared to what they could both make in the private sector, it really isn’t. The assertion that John Dehlin walked away from his career at places like Microsoft and Bain to go into the Mormon podcast business because that’s where the real money is just ludicrous.

I’d guess this entire “industry” has about 15 full-time equivalent employees who make, on average, $50k per year. That isn’t bad, I guess. But my point remains--the extraordinarily few people who went into this didn’t do so in order to get rich.

Dehlin has been successful, but his success isn’t measured in dollars and isn’t driven by causing faith crises. His success is driven by having really smart and interesting people on as guests.

Bill also has a side hustle of marrying people, I have no idea how many weddings he does though

https://getordained.org/find-a-minister/61475

IIRC he works in a pawn shop and so he would get more money doing his podcast than working his retail job

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Analytics said:

To many people that may sound like a lot of money, but compared to what they could both make in the private sector, it really isn’t.

For Dehlin perhaps.  Did Bill ever share his income before he went into the antimormon field?  My memory is he was a salesman beforehand and when working with FAIR he was very much trying to make his own private premium access which people paid to watch a thing.  One difficulty as I understand it that was run into was when he used stuff he worked on with FAIR on his premium early access channel contrary to the agreement with FAIR. I am assuming he did not understand the restriction in the same way FAIR understood it, not that he was trying to get away with using a volunteer charity to make money for him just in case anyone assumes that is what I think he was doing, I do think he was using FAIR to boost his visibility with the longterm goal of increasing subscribers and therefore income, but FAIR saw the relationship as mutually beneficial to begin with and if someone up top missed the fact that he was producing pay to play material from the beginning and assumed he was the typical volunteer who didn’t not expect any income from their efforts, that’s on them.  It just didn’t seem to me he was someone that wasn’t concerned about money in the sense he couldn’t just put in a ton of his time into a no paying gig, even just in free time, he had to at least cover his expenses.  It’s not like FAIR hasn’t had members leave because they couldn’t afford the time needed to volunteer, especially those with young families.

I am only curious about this for accuracy as I don’t like to ‘file away’ speculation if it’s not labeled as such in my head and it bugs me to leave it as ‘unknown source’.  So is this speculation or do you have more than assumption to believe Bill was paid on the higher end of sales or whatever he was doing than typical (it’s 50,000 a year in Utah, though I think he was in California when he first showed up in the board which would be around $80,000).

Edited August 22, 2024 by Calm

[bluebell]

57 minutes ago, Analytics said:

The video we’re talking about was made by Ron C. Rhodes, who wrote an Interpreter paper on the same topic, An Analysis of the Financial Incentives in Attacking the Restoration. According to that paper, the entire “industry” he’s talking about contains two organizations, Mormon Stories with $740k of revenue, and Mormon Discussions with a total revenue of $327k. Adding that up, this entire thriving “industry” has a revenue of a hair over $1 million per year.

Throw the entire “industry” together and it would qualify as a successful small business that, when compared to other successful small business, is smaller than average.

In contrast, the U.S. honey industry is $350 million per year, and the market for electric cars is something like $80 billion per year.

The two top earners in this “industry" are the CEO’s of the two organizations, John Dehlin and Bill Reel, who make $234k and $100k per year, respectively. To many people that may sound like a lot of money, but compared to what they could both make in the private sector, it really isn’t. The assertion that John Dehlin walked away from his career at places like Microsoft and Bain to go into the Mormon podcast business because that’s where the real money is just ludicrous.

I’d guess this entire “industry” has about 15 full-time equivalent employees who make, on average, $50k per year. That isn’t bad, I guess. But my point remains--the extraordinarily few people who went into this didn’t do so in order to get rich.

Dehlin has been successful, but his success isn’t measured in dollars and isn’t driven by causing faith crises. His success is driven by having really smart and interesting people on as guests.

I still think it comes down to someone’s perception of “thriving“ And that the word is pretty subjective.

My neighbor probably doesn’t clear $1000 a year with their honey, but they’ve got a lot of really healthy bees and they’ve been increasing their hive numbers and compared to earlier years I wouldn’t be surprised if their profits have doubled or even tripled.

Obviously, you would not consider that thriving, but I would.

If the anti-Mormon industry had five “full-time“ employees two years ago and now they have 15, I would consider that thriving as well.  

 

[LoudmouthMormon]

1 hour ago, Analytics said:

The two top earners in this “industry" are the CEO’s of the two organizations, John Dehlin and Bill Reel, who make $234k and $100k per year, respectively. To many people that may sound like a lot of money, but compared to what they could both make in the private sector, it really isn’t. The assertion that John Dehlin walked away from his career at places like Microsoft and Bain to go into the Mormon podcast business because that’s where the real money is just ludicrous.

I’d guess this entire “industry” has about 15 full-time equivalent employees who make, on average, $50k per year. That isn’t bad, I guess. But my point remains--the extraordinarily few people who went into this didn’t do so in order to get rich.

Pretty much totally agree.

History and context is cool: I'd note that with the advent of the internet, the antimormon industry grew pretty quickly, and faster than the faithful responses for a while.  The '90's and 2000's were lit.  My hobby was going into bookstores (both Christian and plain old bookstores) and looking through their Mormon section.  I did this in probably 5 states over the years.  Pretty much every mainstream bookstore that had a Christian section had an adjacent Mormon section.  And the books were (until halfway through the 2000's) 100% critical.  Not even a BoM to be found, until maybe 2005-ish.  Zero apologetic works until maybe the 2010's.   

General Conferences were lit, as protestors, sometimes organized and bussed in by organizers, were everywhere.   Usually peaceful, but there was an occasional arrest. 

There were probably 15 or 20 websites, discussion groups, forums that had a Mormon specific board, with most of them geared towards criticism.  The Reachout Trust Countercult forum had a section on Mormons.  The Catholic Answers Forum had a "non-Catholic religions" forum where antimormons ruled the day.  More than a few entire sites solely dedicated to church criticism.  Many would immediately ban anyone with a favorable opinion.  On LDS-friendly sites, it was a quite common occurrence to see people show up pretending to be LDS, try to gain some trust and friends, and then have some "innocent questions" that quickly became full-on antimormon tirades before getting banned.  I heard the phrase "lying for the Lord" used on a handful of occasions, by people justifying their actions.

The live chatrooms were lit.  AOL, Yahoo, MSN all provided free topic rooms where folks could chat live.   Example from 2003 and the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping, courtesy of my archives:

Quote

anskelll (3/17/03 8:27:26 PM): I CHALLENGE THOSE WHO INTERVIEW THE SMART FAMILY, THOSE WHO WILL ONE DAY INTERVIEW ELIZABETH SMART, BRIAN DAVID MITCHELL, AND WANDA EILEEN BARZEE TO QUESTION THEM ABOUT THEIR MORMON FAITH AND THE ROLE THAT IT PLAYED IN THESE EVENTS. I CHALLENGE LAW ENFORCEMENT AND THOSE IN THE LEGAL COMMUNITY THAT HANDLE THIS CASE TO UNDERSTAND THE ROLE THAT MORMONISM PLAYED. WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND THE MORMON CULT, YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THE ELIZABETH SMART CASE! I love you and care about you so much. My goal today is to not only expose the "lie" of Mormonism, but to encourage you in your daily walk with the God of the Bible, with the Jesus of the Bible. Mormonism and other cults are growing fast as Paul said in 2 Timothy chapter 3 said would happen in the days before Christ returns. 
skooterpie97 (8:28:04 PM): lol teh role mormonism played
radday (8:28:06 PM): lol anskell. We all know that mormons get kidnapped more than other religions.
skooterpie97 (8:28:11 PM): hahahaha
skooterpie97 (8:28:13 PM): like this is an lds thing
rhonrush (8:28:15 PM): bye anskell welcome to iggyland
jlcf80 (8:28:19 PM): someone has been smoking somethign
exmormontracey (8:28:20 PM): well the Mormons did a hell of a job trying to find her
ldsdon2001 (8:28:21 PM): Anskelll your in the wrong place to make the challenge

There were dozens of travelling speakers/preachers who would earn a living through speaker's fees, going from church to church, giving sometimes fiery, sometimes lengthy symposiums on why the Mormons are bad/wrong/horrible/evil/scary. 

In '97, we got "Mormon Apologetic, Scholarship and Evangelical Neglect: Losing the Battle and Not Knowing It?" by respected Christian scholars Carl Mosser and Paul Owen, presented at the Evangelical Theological Society Far West Annual Meeting.  Basically calling the antimormon book industry to repentance for being so stupid and useless. 

As time went on, the fire and over-the-top negativity died down, and more "witnessing to your Mormon neighbor in love"  The 2002 winter Olympics in SLC was also a giant letdown, as the locals didn't have horns, and nobody's daughters got abducted and brainwashed into spiritual wifery.  

The bottom dropped out of the antimormon book market.  Eventually nobody could make a buck giving antimormon speeches.  The Countercult Reachout Trust's founder died, funding ran out, and the forum ended.  Catholic Answers' forum also went away.   Plenty of online discussions and fora remained, but nobody's making money off of online hobbies like this.

 

In other words, Dehlin and Reel with their paltry million being the last people standing = we won.  We rose to do battle with a thriving industry, and defeated said industry with our knowledge and facts and patience and human experience and superior arguments and love.  

It's nice to win on occasion.

Edited August 22, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[Frank11]

13 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

n other words, Dehlin and Reel with their paltry million being the last people standing = we won.  We rose to do battle with a thriving industry, and defeated said industry with our knowledge and facts and patience and human experience and superior arguments and love.  

It's nice to win on occasion.

Congratulations on the glorious victory.

Now that the anti-Mormon lies have been refuted by convincing facts, the numbers should return to what they were in the 80s and 90s, when the Internet was not yet in the world.

 But something tells me that probably won't happen, perhaps because the facts speak for themselves and don't really need an explanation from either John Dehlin, Bill Reel on the one hand or FAIR on the other.

 

[webbles]

2 hours ago, Frank11 said:

Congratulations on the glorious victory.

Now that the anti-Mormon lies have been refuted by convincing facts, the numbers should return to what they were in the 80s and 90s, when the Internet was not yet in the world.

 But something tells me that probably won't happen, perhaps because the facts speak for themselves and don't really need an explanation from either John Dehlin, Bill Reel on the one hand or FAIR on the other.

 

Nice graph.  Where did you get it?

[Frank11]

24 minutes ago, webbles said:

Nice graph.  Where did you get it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Membership_statistics_of_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

I think the graphic tends to reflect the development quite well, at least from what I hear. 

[teddyaware]

4 hours ago, Frank11 said:

Congratulations on the glorious victory.

Now that the anti-Mormon lies have been refuted by convincing facts, the numbers should return to what they were in the 80s and 90s, when the Internet was not yet in the world.

 But something tells me that probably won't happen, perhaps because the facts speak for themselves and don't really need an explanation from either John Dehlin, Bill Reel on the one hand or FAIR on the other.

 

President Ezra Taft Benson, as well as other general authorities, have testified that the Book of Mormon provides a mirror image prophetic blueprint of the destiny of the restored church of Christ prior to his Second Coming. Therefore it shouldn’t be at all surprising if the latter-day restored church experiences setbacks and convulsive fits and starts prior to its ultimate triumph and the utter destruction of all its enemies. Please note that in the following very significant and pertinent passages from the Book of Mormon the state of the church, very soon before the resurrected Christ’s appearance and ministry to the Nephites, was anything but hunky dory. As you will see, your false notion that if the restored church is true everything must needs be spiritually strong, sound and healthy in the church grows out of your ignorance of the scriptures.

14 And thus there became a great inequality in all the land, insomuch that the church began to be broken up; yea, insomuch that in the thirtieth year the church was broken up in all the land save it were among a few of the Lamanites who were converted unto the true faith; and they would not depart from it, for they were firm, and steadfast, and immovable, willing with all diligence to keep the commandments of the Lord.

15 Now the cause of this iniquity of the people was this—Satan had great power, unto the stirring up of the people to do all manner of iniquity, and to the puffing them up with pride, tempting them to seek for power, and authority, and riches, and the vain things of the world.

16 And thus Satan did lead away the hearts of the people to do all manner of iniquity; therefore they had enjoyed peace but a few years.

17 And thus, in the commencement of the thirtieth year—the people having been delivered up for the space of a long time to be carried about by the temptations of the devil whithersoever he desired to carry them, and to do whatsoever iniquity he desired they should—and thus in the commencement of this, the thirtieth year, they were in a state of awful wickedness.

18 Now they did not sin ignorantly, for they knew the will of God concerning them, for it had been taught unto them; therefore they did wilfully rebel against God. (3 Nephi 6)

In addition, the following passages from the Doctrine and Covenants plainly reveal that very soon before the Second Coming many within the Church will become so wicked that the Lord will have to send terrible judgements of destruction upon them to purge and cleanse the church of wickedness and impurity. As you can clearly see, you’re ideas are way off base.

24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord. (Doctrine and Covenants 112)

 

[teddyaware]

4 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Error

 

 

Edited August 23, 2024 by teddyaware

[Analytics]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

For Dehlin perhaps.  Did Bill ever share his income before he went into the antimormon field?  My memory is he was a salesman beforehand...

So is this speculation or do you have more than assumption...

I don’t have any additional information on Bill’s income history. I’m merely asserting that as a matter of principle that if Bill was motivated by money, he could make much more than he does if he threw his talents and energy into something in the business world rather than podcasting about Mormonism.

18 hours ago, bluebell said:

I still think it comes down to someone’s perception of “thriving“ And that the word is pretty subjective.

My neighbor probably doesn’t clear $1000 a year with their honey, but they’ve got a lot of really healthy bees and they’ve been increasing their hive numbers and compared to earlier years I wouldn’t be surprised if their profits have doubled or even tripled.  

If somebody’s business would need to grow by a factor of x30 to get their gross revenue up to the poverty line, I wouldn’t call that thriving. Maybe it is thriving as a hobby if it is something they enjoy doing anyway, but as an actual business?

18 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Pretty much totally agree.

History and context is cool: I'd note that with the advent of the internet, the antimormon industry grew pretty quickly, and faster than the faithful responses for a while.  The '90's and 2000's were lit.  My hobby was going into bookstores (both Christian and plain old bookstores) and looking through their Mormon section.  I did this in probably 5 states over the years.  Pretty much every mainstream bookstore that had a Christian section had an adjacent Mormon section.  And the books were (until halfway through the 2000's) 100% critical.  Not even a BoM to be found, until maybe 2005-ish.  Zero apologetic works until maybe the 2010's.   

General Conferences were lit, as protestors, sometimes organized and bussed in by organizers, were everywhere.   Usually peaceful, but there was an occasional arrest. 

There were probably 15 or 20 websites, discussion groups, forums that had a Mormon specific board, with most of them geared towards criticism.  The Reachout Trust Countercult forum had a section on Mormons.  The Catholic Answers Forum had a "non-Catholic religions" forum where antimormons ruled the day.  More than a few entire sites solely dedicated to church criticism.  Many would immediately ban anyone with a favorable opinion.  On LDS-friendly sites, it was a quite common occurrence to see people show up pretending to be LDS, try to gain some trust and friends, and then have some "innocent questions" that quickly became full-on antimormon tirades before getting banned.  I heard the phrase "lying for the Lord" used on a handful of occasions, by people justifying their actions.

The live chatrooms were lit.  AOL, Yahoo, MSN all provided free topic rooms where folks could chat live.   Example from 2003 and the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping, courtesy of my archives:

There were dozens of travelling speakers/preachers who would earn a living through speaker's fees, going from church to church, giving sometimes fiery, sometimes lengthy symposiums on why the Mormons are bad/wrong/horrible/evil/scary. 

In '97, we got "Mormon Apologetic, Scholarship and Evangelical Neglect: Losing the Battle and Not Knowing It?" by respected Christian scholars Carl Mosser and Paul Owen, presented at the Evangelical Theological Society Far West Annual Meeting.  Basically calling the antimormon book industry to repentance for being so stupid and useless. 

As time went on, the fire and over-the-top negativity died down, and more "witnessing to your Mormon neighbor in love"  The 2002 winter Olympics in SLC was also a giant letdown, as the locals didn't have horns, and nobody's daughters got abducted and brainwashed into spiritual wifery.  

The bottom dropped out of the antimormon book market.  Eventually nobody could make a buck giving antimormon speeches.  The Countercult Reachout Trust's founder died, funding ran out, and the forum ended.  Catholic Answers' forum also went away.   Plenty of online discussions and fora remained, but nobody's making money off of online hobbies like this.

My recollection of those days is different. Back then, the Church was actually growing in the United States, and members of other religions were leaving their churches to join yours. The so-called “anti-Mormon” industry of the times was driven by Evangelicals who saw Mormonism as a threat and who focused on issues such as whether the Mormon Jesus was the “real” Jesus. Further, before the Internet if you wanted to learn about the issues surrounding Mormonism’s history and past teachings, your only option was to turn to an anti-Mormon book, be it Mormonism: Shadow or Reality, or No Man Knows My History. 

About the time the Internet mushroomed, the Mormon missionaries had a lot less success converting people from other Christian churches. However, people started leaving both those other Christian churches and Mormonism in favor of secularism. It became clear to everybody that this was a more formidable enemy, and the evangelicals realized that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

18 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

In other words, Dehlin and Reel with their paltry million being the last people standing = we won.  We rose to do battle with a thriving industry, and defeated said industry with our knowledge and facts and patience and human experience and superior arguments and love.  

It's nice to win on occasion.

The fact remains that even though there isn’t a huge anti-Mormon industry like there was before, missionaries have lost most of their ability to win converts in the English-speaking developed world, and more people are leaving the Church now than ever before. 

On the anti-side there are the 15-or so people who are involved in podcasting for Mormon Stories and Mormon Discussions, the CES letter, and several dozen of people who blog, post on message boards, or make TikTok videos with different degrees of frequency. 

On the side of trying to win converts and build faith are FAIR, More-Good Foundation, Saints Unscripted, Book of Mormon Central, Interpreter,  other apologetic organizations, tens of thousands of full-time missionaries, the Church education system, seminary, institute, and millions of members being influenced by the pro-Mormon message by living the gospel in their families and communities.

For every one dollar being spent to fund the anti-Mormon side, there must be over $5,000 funding the pro-Mormon side. If you consider that a win, then I’m glad you are enjoying it.

[webbles]

2 hours ago, Frank11 said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Membership_statistics_of_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

I think the graphic tends to reflect the development quite well, at least from what I hear. 

I like to read http://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/ as he gets into pretty good detail on the growth.

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, Duncan said:

Bill also has a side hustle of marrying people, I have no idea how many weddings he does though

https://getordained.org/find-a-minister/61475

IIRC he works in a pawn shop and so he would get more money doing his podcast than working his retail job

Yea? So what?

[Teancum]

19 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

In other words, Dehlin and Reel with their paltry million being the last people standing = we won.  We rose to do battle with a thriving industry, and defeated said industry with our knowledge and facts and patience and human experience and superior arguments and love.  

It's nice to win on occasion.

Well you keep telling yourself this as the church continues to bleed strong active members as well as having a dismal growth rates and very low active participant rates. The LDS church is pretty insignificant on the world stage.  And while it has some nominal growth, it is really a rather shrinking influence in the world.  But it does have a lot of wealth. Maybe the church will really need that $ as its influence continuers to fade away.