CES Letter Claims Strength List

[ttribe]

On 7/26/2024 at 5:00 PM, Calm said:

If it’s people that are close to you (generally speaking)and they told you why they no longer see themselves as members, I assume you, ttribe, are okay with saying “you know why they left”?

Of course, if the person directly told them their reasons, but imputing motives like leaving "because they believe they are way smarter than everyone else," for example, is not helpful in the least.

Edited July 29, 2024 by ttribe

[Frank11]

On 7/28/2024 at 2:57 AM, Calm said:

Out of curiosity, have you read the Turley books on the MMM?

No, but I once saw an interview with Turley on this topic. But they only went into the circumstances. Yes, all understandable, but I am interested in how people who believe in eternal life after death and believe that their actions on earth will have an effect on their later life justify this before God in counseling and prayer? 

[Rain]

32 minutes ago, Frank11 said:

No, but I once saw an interview with Turley on this topic. But they only went into the circumstances. Yes, all understandable, but I am interested in how people who believe in eternal life after death and believe that their actions on earth will have an effect on their later life justify this before God in counseling and prayer? 

I'm amazed at how often people don't counsel with God in prayer. It happens all the time.  A lot of people in the church just don't do it often. When my son became driving age we really prayed about getting him a car.  It would have been a lot easier on us to have him driving to school and activities, but the answer was no.  When I told my neighbor she said "I didn't pray about our son and a car.  I didn't want to know."  So maybe the MMM people didn't want to know either.

[Calm]

59 minutes ago, Frank11 said:

No, but I once saw an interview with Turley on this topic. But they only went into the circumstances. Yes, all understandable, but I am interested in how people who believe in eternal life after death and believe that their actions on earth will have an effect on their later life justify this before God in counseling and prayer? 

I would suggest reading at least the first book if you truly want to understand how this occurred.  Well worth the time investment.  I don’t think he whitewashes the massacre at all, but he makes it almost understandable (it was a very different culture than the one I live in, I don’t think I could ever truly understand in my gut how anyone could go to that extreme even if intellectually I can accept the possibility).

It is not a pleasant read, of course, but I was surprised at how engaged I was in it as I am not typically interested in that kind of history book and the subject is one I have to force myself to engage (people doing bad things in real life).  Very well written.

I haven’t read much of the second book yet, but that deals with the aftermath, so you might be interested in that for the reactions in the community, etc.

Edited July 29, 2024 by Calm

[Doctor Steuss]

55 minutes ago, Frank11 said:

No, but I once saw an interview with Turley on this topic. But they only went into the circumstances. Yes, all understandable, but I am interested in how people who believe in eternal life after death and believe that their actions on earth will have an effect on their later life justify this before God in counseling and prayer? 

Turley et.al.'s first book on MMM spends a decent amount of time going into the sociological phenomena of why otherwise good people do horrendous things.  I haven't read the second book, but the first book (in my opinion) is incredibly well written, accessible, and engaging.  Definitely recommend picking it up if you have a chance or the inclination.

ETA:  It basically stops at the MMM itself, and doesn't cover any of the aftermath (i.e. coverup[s], etc.).  The intent was for that to be covered in the second volume.

Edited July 29, 2024 by Doctor Steuss

[Calm]

3 hours ago, ttribe said:

Of course, if the person directly told them their reasons, but imputing motives like leaving "because they believe they are way smarter than everyone else," for example, is not helpful in the least.

Well, there are some people who make it pretty obvious they feel that way about some things, lol (they may see the source of their wisdom as common sense and their experience rather than intelligence, but it amounts to the same thing pretty much…them thinking they have the right to tell others what to do and think whether or not they have been asked for advice) but yes, I wouldn’t assume that was the reason for leaving the Church typically….at least out loud, lol (arrogance sets me off internally, if not externally; my mind will likely go there along with a guess that underneath it all they are actually highly insecure as I have found several arrogant, know better than you individuals in my life to be; I have had several in my extended family that I avoided at times to skip the unasked for lectures…one of my grandmas was famous in the family for her “you know I’m right” flourishes at the end of her lectures, she had only graduated from high school and felt that lack of education deeply in her life and unfortunately made others suffer because of it).

[Malc]

I was a tithe-paying TR-holding active participating member until shortly before I wasn't. I think I stopped paying tithing a couple of months before, around the time I asked to be released from my callings. I told the Bishop I just didn't want to have a calling any more, and that he should not waste time trying to persuade me. He said he would give me some space to "work things out".

One day I just stopped going to church - except for weddings, funerals, etc. I had reached the point at which I could stay silent no more while listening to things I disagreed with.

I still supported my wife and children in their church activities - driving them as needed, helping them with talks, prep for classes, admin stuff. For example, when my wife was RS secretary in the ward, I was known as the RS secretary's secretary. I put in a lot of work on maintaining visiting teaching records, helping families move, helping at youth fundraisers. When my wife was seminary teacher, I made pancakes for the kids once a week.

For a while I wondered if/when the High Priests' group leader (that tells you how long ago this was) was going to call me to talk about my inactivity. 

After a couple of years, he called to me as I was leaving the building with family in tow, wanting a minute of my time. This, I thought, is it, and I was prepared to explain a few things to him. However, that was not what he wanted.

He told me that he was upset with me because, in all the years that he had been group leaser, not a single group member had become inactive apart from me. I had spoiled, and was continuing to spoil, his record, so would I please just come back. That was it!

I don't know what assumptions anyone made about why I was inactive. My wife & children had a standard response if anyone asked about me: Malc has some issues that are keeping him away, and if you want to know what they are, you have to ask him. 

Nobody did.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Malc said:

Nobody did.

Was that good or bad in your view?

[Malc]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

Was that good or bad in your view?

Mixed - in the early days of my disaffection I had some angry feelings, and may have been inclined to say things that would have upset people. Later I realised that responding with anger would have been pointless and needlessly unpleasant. 

OTOH, having previously reached out to newly inactive members to express concern, I could not help feeling that nobody asked = nobody cared.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Malc said:

Mixed - in the early days of my disaffection I had some angry feelings, and may have been inclined to say things that would have upset people. Later I realised that responding with anger would have been pointless and needlessly unpleasant. 

OTOH, having previously reached out to newly inactive members to express concern, I could not help feeling that nobody asked = nobody cared.

This happened to me, one whole year w/o a call or visit asking where I disappeared to. I had been fully active for years in the same ward. Was previously in the presidency of the Relief Society and remember the president being very concerned with any of the ladies that weren't coming at least once a month and would make the effort to call and check on them. So I was just a little miffed, but this was another RS president, so I guess that all can't be perfect . It was my own fault for not going so there's that. I wasn't vocal at all with my misgivings of church history that I'd learned and it took a few years for me to stop going. What kept me in for the few was helping a young man who was disable get to his classes and make sure he was fed through a tube etc. But then he had major back surgery and didn't attend any longer and then I just kind of stopped going until we moved right after. 

Edited July 30, 2024 by Tacenda

[Teancum]

On 7/26/2024 at 7:25 PM, ttribe said:

I see a fair amount of "We know why they REALLY left" commentary in this thread. Pretty disappointing, actually.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[InCognitus]

On 7/23/2024 at 4:41 PM, Frank11 said:

Now this is very surprising to me, especially since until today all the leaders of the church instructed members to only get information from pro-LDS sources. But back when I was active, there weren't even the Gospel Topic Essays. There were a few rumors that were immediately dismissed as anti-Mormon lies. Joseph Smith also had a single wife named Emma at the time and I would say here in Germany that is still the case for the majority of members.

Others have commented on this already, but.... 

I was going through some notes on my hard drive today and came across this reference I saved from Gordon B. Hinckley.  This comes from Gordon B. Hinckley, “As One Who Loves the Prophet,” in Joseph Smith: The Prophet, The Man, ed. Susan Easton Black and Charles D. Tate Jr. (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1993), 1–13:

Quote

When I was about 14 or 15, my brother and I would accompany our parents to the General Conference held in the Tabernacle. At that time there was room for everyone who wished to get in. Heber J. Grant was President of the Church. In imagination, I can still see and hear him. He stood tall. He did not read from a manuscript. He spoke from his heart. His voice rang out in moving words of testimony concerning Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.

From these and other experiences of my younger years, there came accretions of knowledge and faith concerning the Prophet Joseph. Was there ever doubt? Yes, admittedly at times, particularly in my university days. That was a time of general cynicism. It was the bottom of the Great Depression, a depression so deep and severe that the present recession, by comparison, seems to be a season of prosperity.

I read in those days, and have since read, much of the writing leveled against the Prophet by critics, not a few, who have worn out their lives trying, honestly or dishonestly, to find some flaw of character, some note of history to destroy the credibility of Joseph Smith. I am grateful to say that I have survived them all, and that the more I have read, the stronger has grown my faith in and my love for this most remarkable and wonderful man. His detractors, without exception, insofar as I know, have had their day in the sun, and then have faded into oblivion, while the name of Joseph Smith has been honored in ever-widening circles around the earth.

I have heard similar claims made throughout my life, that "until today all the leaders of the church instructed members to only get information from pro-LDS sources".  Yet, here we have our former prophet, President Gordon B. Hinkley, saying that he had been reading not so "pro-LDS sources" all his life, and admitting this publicly.  What are we to make of that?

I would add that my own experience is similar to what President Hinckley describes above (and in his article).  And years ago when I was a ward clerk (in the early 90's), I had a bishop who had reading interests similar to my own, and we had many discussions about things we had read against Joseph Smith or the teachings of the church.  My experience simply doesn't fit with what you are saying. 

[mfbukowski]

On 7/23/2024 at 10:47 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Your faith crisis makes sense now. There is a reason the Book of Mormon is the keystone of the Restored Gospel.

🪙🪙

Are you helping her?

[ZealouslyStriving]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Are you helping her?

We've already moved beyond this point in the discussion 

[Rain]

3 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Others have commented on this already, but.... 

I was going through some notes on my hard drive today and came across this reference I saved from Gordon B. Hinckley.  This comes from Gordon B. Hinckley, “As One Who Loves the Prophet,” in Joseph Smith: The Prophet, The Man, ed. Susan Easton Black and Charles D. Tate Jr. (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1993), 1–13:

I have heard similar claims made throughout my life, that "until today all the leaders of the church instructed members to only get information from pro-LDS sources".  Yet, here we have our former prophet, President Gordon B. Hinkley, saying that he had been reading not so "pro-LDS sources" all his life, and admitting this publicly.  What are we to make of that?

I would add that my own experience is similar to what President Hinckley describes above (and in his article).  And years ago when I was a ward clerk (in the early 90's), I had a bishop who had reading interests similar to my own, and we had many discussions about things we had read against Joseph Smith or the teachings of the church.  My experience simply doesn't fit with what you are saying. 

I would guess the idea comes from the lesson manuals being very strict on what sources (church approved) are used in class and what sources missionaries could read when on their missions and people just took that to mean that's all they should read outside of class.