revisiting critical of mormonism sites

[why me]

I recently decided to revisit a podcast host that is critical of the LDS church. I remember listening to his interviews years ago, during the early part of this century. What amazed me was the fact that nothing has changed. I listened to a podcasts about the three witnesses or a podcast about Bishops who left the church or individual members who have left the church. Or various other reasons why someone left the LDS church or polygamy, chasity, including masturbation, temples etc. The thing is I just can't understand how someone can make a career out of discussing the same topics for twenty years or more as if they don't know the answers that the podcast experts will say or the interviewees. Of course I know that there is money to be made from social media sites and perhaps this makes one spend their entire life with such interview topics over and over again to disparage a church. But I think that there is so much more interesting things about life than to spend it with doing such podcasts as a career for years and years. Listening to these podcasts I felt like I was back to the future when I was a little younger with more energy.

Edited April 17, 2024 by why me

[Duncan]

Something happens in the church and it makes the rounds of podcasters and what is so different from one to the next? 

Edited April 17, 2024 by Duncan

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

Something happens in the church and it makes the rounds of podcasters and what is so different from one to the next? 

Very true, I'm glad I've moved on for the most part and seeking other podcasts or audibles. Actually our library system offers audibles and it's the Libby site, so at no cost. Love it! 

[LoudmouthMormon]

I sort of, but not really, miss the good old days when every Christian bookstore had a section on "Mormonism" chock full of anti publications, with not a single BoM or positive publication to be seen.  Back when a feller could make a decent living as an itinerant speaker, traveling from parish to congregation, speaking out on the evils of mormonism to eager audiences.  Back when the church's successes in converting folks from other Christian faiths to the CoJCoLDS made mainstream media news.

Then FARMS had their decade-plus-long run with their book review, critically evaluating the antimormon stuff to great effect.  And then Owens and Mosser had to go publish their essay about the abysmal low quality of Christian apologetics on LDS matters.  And then SLC hosted the 2002 winter olympics, and the world got to know Harry Reid and Mitt Romney, and the Joseph Smith Papers project published online, for free, every single document.  And suddenly it got real hard to think of us as a weird cult in the mountains that kidnapped people's daughters into polygamy and hid our history from the world.  And then the church got into the game, publishing it's essays on topics.  Suddenly everyone stopped arguing our theology, and the only readily apparent backup criticisms were we hate the gays and the wimminfolk.   Suddenly I couldn't find anyone to laugh at about nephite coinage.   I couldn't find any claims of lying about our history which I could refute with a link to the source doc, published by us.  I had no further use for my cut-and-paste apologetic document with handy phrases like "I've been an active member for X years, attended roughly Y church meetings, spent over Z hours listening to talks and council, in N wards in M states, and I've never, not once, ever hear anyone tell me [insert whatever stupid thing I'm being told I get taught].   Mormonleaks threatened to awaken the old passions, but 99% of the leaks just made us look better, our leaders more humble, our secret actions were mostly laudible.  Honestly, if it weren't for the recent crop of SEC violations and financial leaks, probably half of the surviving critic podcasts (like, all four of them?) might have gone under. 

I was honestly sad to hear about Sandra Tanner closing her bookshop for good last year.  It was like the final page of a fascinating book on "the golden age of church criticism".   

[smac97]

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I sort of, but not really, miss the good old days when every Christian bookstore had a section on "Mormonism" chock full of anti publications, with not a single BoM or positive publication to be seen. 

In terms of volume (loudness) and visibility, I think secular anti-Mormons have largely displaced sectarian anti-Mormons.  

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Back when a feller could make a decent living as an itinerant speaker, traveling from parish to congregation, speaking out on the evils of mormonism to eager audiences.  Back when the church's successes in converting folks from other Christian faiths to the CoJCoLDS made mainstream media news.

These days, there are some few who can make money off of being "anti-Mormon."  John Dehlin, for example.

Most, however, seem to be in the game for reasons other than money.

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Then FARMS had their decade-plus-long run with their book review, critically evaluating the antimormon stuff to great effect. 

Yes, those were often interesting reads.

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

And then Owens and Mosser had to go publish their essay about the abysmal low quality of Christian apologetics on LDS matters. 

Mosser/Owen, being sectarian, focused more on doctrinal disagreements with us.  These days, most anti-Mormons focus on social issues, with doctrine as a backdrop.

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

And then SLC hosted the 2002 winter olympics, and the world got to know Harry Reid and Mitt Romney, and the Joseph Smith Papers project published online, for free, every single document.  And suddenly it got real hard to think of us as a weird cult in the mountains that kidnapped people's daughters into polygamy and hid our history from the world. 

I think we are still seen as pretty weird in some quarters.  This impression is often helped along by those who have left us.

From today's DailyMail: 

Former Mormon reveals the wild list of rules she was forced to follow while living within ultra-strict religion - from being told drinking COFFEE would bar you from heaven to 'awful law of chastity' that pushed many into PORN addictions

Again, I think this sort of anti-Mormon is not in it for the money.  There is a different purpose afoot.

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

And then the church got into the game, publishing it's essays on topics. 

I commented on this back in 2022:

Quote

So to sum up, Bushman - who seems to have started the whole "reconstruct the dominant narrative" thing back in 2016 - has stated that

1. the rumors that he had renounced his faith in the foundational truth claims of the Restored Gospel are false,
2. he remains "on the side of the believers in inspiration and divine happenings—in angels, plates, translations, revelations,."
3. "the Church was lying {about its history}" claim being bandied about is "not a fair judgment,"
4. his "dominant narrative" comment is being inaccurately construed as him admitting that he has lost confidence in the basic history of the Church,
5. what he had meant was that some errors had crept into our popularized accounts of the early history of the Church, and that these errors should be straightened out,
6. the entirety of the Church, "from top to bottom," has needed to "reconstruct" our historical narrative so as to "adjust to the findings of our historians," and
7. the Church has done what he had been proposing, that it has produced a "reconstructed narrative" of the history of the Church by publishing Saints, the Joseph Smith Papers project, the Gospel Topics Essays, and so on.

Based on this, I must respectfully disagree somewhat with your comment that "{w}here the improvements are really needed are in Church," and that "unless the average member goes looking for the scholarship the problem of an uninformed membership remains."  I think the Church has been working hard to provide members with meaningful and substantive resources which provide a considerably improved "narrative" of our history.  The resources Bushman has specifically credited as reconstructing the narrative (Saints, Volume 1 ("The Standard of Truth, 1815–1846"), Volume 2 ("No Unhallowed Hand, 1846–1893") and Volume 3 ("Boldly, Nobly, and Independent, 1893–1955"), the Joseph Smith Papers Project, the Gospel Topics essays - 14 in all) are freely available to the world online.  Additionally, the "Church History" section of the Church's website includes many other resources that I think Bushman would construe as even further reconstructing the narrative:

• Saints Podcast (112 episodes over three seasons, and counting)
• Historical Sources (extensive information about the Doctrine & Covenants)
• Revelations in Context ("The Stories behind the Sections of the Doctrine and Covenants")
• Joseph Smith's Revelations ("A Doctrine and Covenants Study Companion from the Joseph Smith Papers")
• Joseph Smith Papers Podcasts (14 episodes)
• First Vision (examining the various accounts of the First Vision)
• Prophets of the Restoration (extensive biographies of all presidents of the Church)
• Church History Topics (brief but annotated treatments of dozens of Church History items)
• Answers to Church History Questions (answering questions about difficult areas of Church history, such as Mountain Meadows, treatment of Native Americans, translation of the Book of Abraham, the Kirtland Safety Society, polygamy, etc.)
• Stories from Saints (discussion of various "local" stories about members of the Church and how they have influenced both the Church and history generally)
• Global Histories (extensive historical summaries of the Church throughout the world)
• At the Pulpit ("185 Years of Discourses by Latter-day Saint Women")
• The First Fifty Years of Relief Society
• Daughters in My Kingdom ("The History and Work of Relief Society")

Moreover, the Church also maintains https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/, which includes all of the foregoing historical resources plus many more:

• The Church Historian’s Press ("Search diaries, journals, discourses and documents")
• Pioneers in Every Land (various resources about members throughout the world)
• Joseph Smith (extensive resources about Joseph's life and ministry)
• The Trek West (various maps, stories, etc.)
• Museum Treasures ("Learn about the art and artifacts available at the Church History Museum.")
• Perspectives on Church History ("Explore insights on the history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.")
• Experience Church History (selections from exhibits and materials housed in the Church History Museum)
• Research Church History Collections (links to the Church History Library, Church History Catalog, Church History Biographical Database, Treasures of the {Church History Museum} Collection, Pioneer Resources)
• Church History Museum ("Discover the spiritual, artistic, and cultural legacies of the Latter-day Saints.")
• Church Historic Sites

Way back in the 1990s, I returned from my mission and found that my dad had purchased "LDS Infobases," a collection of Church history/doctrine publications and materials originally published in 1993 (with perhaps other iterations published earlier than that).  I was amazed at having access to something like 1,800 books on these discs, all searchable!  Back then individual members really did have to go "looking for scholarship," but for the last many decades there has been a huge improvement in readily-available resources, including various free resources published by the Church which - as Bushman put it - "reconstruct" and improve past recitations of our history.

I don't think sectarian critics care much about the Church improving the recitation of its history.  If we improve, they'll just pivot to some other topic to carp about.

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Suddenly everyone stopped arguing our theology, and the only readily apparent backup criticisms were we hate the gays and the wimminfolk.   

Yep.  The disputes these days are far more about social issues than doctrinal disagreements.

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Suddenly I couldn't find anyone to laugh at about nephite coinage.   I couldn't find any claims of lying about our history which I could refute with a link to the source doc, published by us.  I had no further use for my cut-and-paste apologetic document with handy phrases like "I've been an active member for X years, attended roughly Y church meetings, spent over Z hours listening to talks and council, in N wards in M states, and I've never, not once, ever hear anyone tell me [insert whatever stupid thing I'm being told I get taught].   Mormonleaks threatened to awaken the old passions, but 99% of the leaks just made us look better, our leaders more humble, our secret actions were mostly laudible.  Honestly, if it weren't for the recent crop of SEC violations and financial leaks, probably half of the surviving critic podcasts (like, all four of them?) might have gone under. 

Oh, I think critics will always find things to use against us.  That is the most pernicious thing about faultfinding: you can always succeed at it.

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I was honestly sad to hear about Sandra Tanner closing her bookshop for good last year.  It was like the final page of a fascinating book on "the golden age of church criticism".   

I made this comment back in 2018:

Quote

Quote

 

Years ago, when I joined this site, the field of Mormon apologetics was active.  I remember active engagement from Mormon academics from various backgrounds, consistent publications, debate, amongst other activities.  Nowadays, Mormon apologetics seems close to non-existent relative to ten years ago.  What changed?  Where are the apologists?  

P.S. It's been years since I've posted here, I hope everyone is doing well.

 

A few thoughts:

1. There really isn't much new to discuss.  We end up re-litigating the same topics over and over again, or else minor variations of the same topics.

2. The topics that are discussed seem to have reached sort of an end-stage.  The data points and talking points are being recycled.

3. FAIR, Mormon Interpreter, BookofMormonCentral, Jeff Lindsay, and a few other resources seem to have addressed pretty much all of the substantive criticisms of the doctrines of the Church.  That is not to say that these explanations and such are undeniably persuasive.  There's still plenty of room to disagree.  But both sides have argued each other into a stalemate.

4. Online debates about the merits of the truth claims of the LDS Church can only get you so far.  Moroni's Promise, prayer, faith, humility, service, patience, endurance, and so on are, I think, the means God intends for us to use when seeking a determination on the Church's truth claims..  Adversarial discussions . . . not so much.

Not much has changed since then. 

To paraphrase Ecclesiastes 1:9: "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the {anti-Mormon} sun."

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited April 17, 2024 by smac97

[Kenngo1969]

47 minutes ago, smac97 said:

To paraphrase Ecclesiastes 1:9: "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the {anti-Mormon} sun."

Thanks,

-Smac

Stole my thunder!   That's the scripture I thought of, also. 

[TheTanakas]

20 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I was honestly sad to hear about Sandra Tanner closing her bookshop for good last year.  It was like the final page of a fascinating book on "the golden age of church criticism".

Utah Lighthouse Ministry remains online and offers digitized books. It has become a physical
book store on steroids.

[why me]

Someone mentioned John Dehlin. John has been doing his thing for many years. He has heard the same stories over and over again. And he knows the answers to his questions because he has done it all before. I just don't understand how one can do this for so many years because it all seems rather boring. Of course for the new ex-mormons it perhaps all seems new but us veterans who have been around in these debates online, it has become mundane.

[ZealouslyStriving]

 

 

[LoudmouthMormon]

Lol I have, literally, heard every single one of those notions being conveyed, one at a time, by hundreds of people.  Any one of these is arguable and defendable (as evidenced by the endless folks who argue and defend every one of these.) 

That said, I've never encountered anyone who has expressed more than two or three of them at a time. Nobody does all of them.  That's just silly.

 

Edited May 6, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[Kenngo1969]

On 4/18/2024 at 2:20 PM, why me said:

Someone mentioned John Dehlin. John has been doing his thing for many years. He has heard the same stories over and over again. And he knows the answers to his questions because he has done it all before. I just don't understand how one can do this for so many years because it all seems rather boring. Of course for the new ex-mormons it perhaps all seems new but us veterans who have been around in these debates online, it has become mundane.

💲💲💲💵💵💵💲💲💲

Surely, you've heard the many sordid tales of how Mr. [Oh, excuse me: Dr.] Dehlin treats those who he thinks are threats to The Empire, haven't you?

Edited May 10, 2024 by Kenngo1969

[why me]

On 5/10/2024 at 11:42 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

💲💲💲💵💵💵💲💲💲

Surely, you've heard the many sordid tales of how Mr. [Oh, excuse me: Dr.] Dehlin treats those who he thinks are threats to The Empire, haven't you?

I remember the stories. But of course,as long as bishops leave the church for whatever reason and for as long as members read a history that they did not know....they seems to be up and going. I just find it amazing that people can make a life doing such a job. I would find it boring and tiresome to live in such negativity. 

[Anonymous Mormon]

I am always surprised at how often I find a new podcast or YouTube channel dedicated to ex-mormon and anti-mormon topics. Most of them work really hard to mention their donation forms, Patreons, Substack, or other methods by which they hope to make money from their time / effort.

It makes me wonder - anyone have an estimate of how many Latter-Day Saint critical 'influencers' are full-time just doing that? Do any of them have staffs? Is there an entire industry around it?

Any estimates on how many 'influencers' make enough money that it becomes a lucrative part-time job that they hope to be trying to turn into their full-time gig?

Lastly, what's anyone's best guess on the highest earner in this category?

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

I am always surprised at how often I find a new podcast or YouTube channel dedicated to ex-mormon and anti-mormon topics. Most of them work really hard to mention their donation forms, Patreons, Substack, or other methods by which they hope to make money from their time / effort.

It makes me wonder - anyone have an estimate of how many Latter-Day Saint critical 'influencers' are full-time just doing that? Do any of them have staffs? Is there an entire industry around it?

Any estimates on how many 'influencers' make enough money that it becomes a lucrative part-time job that they hope to be trying to turn into their full-time gig?

Lastly, what's anyone's best guess on the highest earner in this category?

I don't know about the rest but my best guess on highest earner would be Dehlin.

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't know about the rest but my best guess on highest earner would be Dehlin.

For nonEvangelical antimormons (and I use that term to differentiate that type of ‘actively trying to persuade others to reject the faith’ critic from the typical nonbeliever who disagrees with our beliefs, even if they see us as a cult), I would agree.

added:  looking at MRM revenue, my guess now is Dehlin is top earner in all categories…even if the executive compensation went to one person (and it is divided among 3), Dehlin still blows $72,000 out of the water.

https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/953560041

And if McKeever is truly putting in 40 hour weeks and only getting $28,000 and truly working and not just sitting in his office playing solitaire or watching movies to deal with the occasional phone call or email, that is not a great salary (about 13$ per hour)…maybe he gets paid as part of this job for writing his books and then gets royalties on top of his regular salary, but still unlikely to pull him up to Dehlin’s level.  He does not appear to have a personal YouTube channel, though his coauthor/VP of MRM does.

Edited May 21, 2024 by Calm