Jacob 5:65-66: Answer to What in the World is Happening in the Church Right Now?

[Teancum]

22 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I do have empathy, but truth is still truth and truth must be proclaimed. I'm sorry if people's feelings are hurt, but should that make those that have the truth shut their mouths?

I doubt you have empathy.  And thank you for reminding me of what is so ugly about religion when people think they have the "true fullness" of some gospel.  The piety and self righteousness is disgusting and harmful. This is when I think religion is a bad thing for the human race.

[Teancum]

19 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Please, point me to a plain-spoken, conservative, traditionalist apologist whom ya'll don't find arrogant, self-righteous, or combative that I can seek to emulate.

Jim Bennett:   https://www.Mormon*******.***/?s=Jim+Bennett

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

But when we do we are often viewed as harsh, judgmental, and lacking empathy. While those on the progressive side are seen as sensitive and caring, rightfully angry about patriarchal, colonialist, white male privilege they believe affected even the foundations of the Restoration. When it is being taught at our Church schools that Nephi and Enos were prideful racists and that Mormon was a hateful genocidal warlord, do we not have a right to push back and challenge that narrative?

Is that being taught at some church schools? CFR please.

4 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I'll leave that for each individual to decide.

I will now move on from this topic.

You are moving on from a topic you started?  Weird.

[Pyreaux]

On 4/11/2024 at 10:03 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

As I read Jacob 5 today verses 65-66 struck me as perhaps the answer to what is happening in the Church and why the leaders, as some worry, "aren't doing anything about it." or "seem to not know what is going on":

"65 And as they begin to grow ye shall clear away the branches which bring forth bitter fruit, according to the strength of the good and the size thereof;

and ye shall not clear away the bad thereof all at once, lest the roots thereof should be too strong for the graft, and the graft thereof shall perish, and I lose the trees of my vineyard.

66 For it grieveth me that I should lose the trees of my vineyard; wherefore

ye shall clear away the bad according as the good shall grow, that the root and the top may be equal in strength,

until the good shall overcome the bad, and the bad be hewn down and cast into the fire, that they cumber not the ground of my vineyard; and thus will I sweep away the bad out of my vineyard."

*Only the most bitter will be cleared away as the final work of digging, dunging, and pruning happens before the Second Coming- when a final clearing away will happen.*

 

On 4/12/2024 at 8:52 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

What will eventually need to be cleared away are all the new revising of Church history to fit a pot-modern critical theory POV and those clamoring for doctrinal changes so they feel comfortable pursuing their fleshly, fallen desires. 

I'm sorry you've been chastised for what you think, so I'll simply say what I think more softly. Indeed, the church will long suffer to tolerate things that are fated to be slowly cut off from itself. As the pure gospel of Jesus was never static, but a slow piecemeal gospel, where old preconceptions would slowly pass away. Long after Jesus ascended, his gospel slowly moved away from forbidding swine, Gentles, observing the Jerusalem temple only, serving the sabbath and holidays. We might say in retrospect, though Jesus didn't say so while alive, he must have desired these things all along but didn't say anything. Maybe there just was not enough time to teach it or there was little tolerance to stomach it.

I am not very moved by some of the political left's culture battles and ideas beyond mere freedom and rights, I wouldn't be too sorry to see the church put its foot down on a few or a lot of things. I must temper my expectations, that my thoughts might be among the ones doomed to be cut off. I'm an American Libertarian Capitalist which I think has the best policies for the country, the most effective. But I have to remember, even I could be merely tolerated in the church. If I aspire to live in the Zion to come, I may have to yield to a theocracy that restricts freedom and may redistribute all my wealth (I hope better and smoother than other countries do).

Among those things cut off might be, to our surprise, traditional and conservative teachings. Its history seen as flawed in hindsight, as the product of a flawed era not prepared to progress. It might be fate that the church will be made less American, less Western civilization, less white. The very interpretation of scripture might change, just as our non-white, non-US counterparts don't think "dark skins" refers to melanin in skin, no matter what US whites have "traditionally" believed. Tradition isn't always better.

Great caution on presuming about what will be.

PARIS: Happily met, my lady and my wife!

JULIET: That may be, sir, when I may be a wife.

PARIS: That "may be" must be, love, on Thursday next.

JULIET: What must be shall be.

FRIAR LAURENCE: That's a certain text.

Edited April 13, 2024 by Pyreaux

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I will make an exception for you.

I know some won't like it, but the "Critical Theory Series" playlist from CWIC Media's YouTube is a good primer of what is happening. There are several videos in the list about BYU specifically. Here are 3:

 

 

 

 

 

 

But I have CFR waiting ,will you answer to that?

[ZealouslyStriving]

15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

But I have CFR waiting ,will you answer to that?

I apologize. Apparently I don't understand exactly what you are seeking. I thought I was providing what you were asking for 

[Tacenda]

26 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I apologize. Apparently I don't understand exactly what you are seeking. I thought I was providing what you were asking for 

This: "church schools are teaching that Nephi and Enos were prideful racists and that Mormon was a hateful genocidal warlord, this is news to me."

Was this in the videos you shared to me? Because I've listened to nearly all of it and I do believe this is where you got your ideas. Just think it's important to not bury our country's racism and definitely support the LGBTQ people because they are God's children too. 

Edited April 13, 2024 by Tacenda

[Calm]

13 hours ago, manol said:

In my opinion:

Something that gets overlooked when the parable of the wheat and the tares comes up in the Sunday School lesson:

It is not the job of the wheat to decide who are the "tares"!   In the parable, that is the job of the ANGELS.  So unless any of us are able to see from the same perspective as the angels, and with the same wisdom as the angels, we would be out of place to presume we can judge who is wheat and who is tare.  That is simply not our job.  We do have jobs, but that is not one of them.  

To put it another way, if "the last shall be first, and the first shall be last", then obviously none of us are in a position to judge those we disagree with (or anyone else) to be among the "last".  That is simply not our job.  We do have jobs, but that is not one of them. 

Or as Brigham said (thanks for the quote @Doctor Steuss!): 

Let us observe the "Mormon Creed" - let everyone mind their own business. Everyone has weeds enough in his own garden to attend to without attending to the weeds in his neighbor's garden, for while you are attending to the weeds of your neighbor, those in your own will grow very thick and tall and will finally spoil the good seed.

 

No way do I belong on the same list.  I'll trot out my apostate credentials if I have to.  But, thank you anyway! 

You are protective of all and a good defender of the faith/apologist for your own beliefs.  

[Calm]

Time stamps please for where they teach what you @ZealouslyStriving claim as opposed to needing to be interpreted or read between the lines.

Did Nephi have moments of pride coming through his writings, in my opinion yes, but I have never met a person who hasn’t given into that temptation yet, including myself on numerous occasions in my life and yet no one has ever told me I am prideful (and I take great pride in that fact).

Was Nephi racist?  He showed a definite lack of understanding and some contempt at times for a group of people that he categorized as one tribe, community, society, whatever.  Does that qualify as racism?  It comes close but these are people he also describes as of his own blood, in essence his nephews and nieces since Lamanites are described as the children of two of his brothers and any sisters who married the sons of Ishmael, I don’t see how it can technically qualify as racism….tribalism is a better term imo.

 It is also understandable and is probably necessary to some extent for him to be able to deal with the tragedy of his brethren trying to kill him and those who follow him and he and his people needing to defend themselves against their attacks.  He probably needed to put mental and emotional distance in order not to breakdown from having to kill what he would usually think of as his people or having to tell others to kill if necessary to defend themselves, to kill those he normally would be doing his best to protect.  And there would be a lot of anger most likely that his followers who he spent his entire existence trying to protect from all dangers had to give up on the comforts and safety they had created for themselves in the new land and start over again, likely suffering great deprivations and even death during the resettlement…even if Nephi glosses over those and focuses on their overall success because of the Lord’s protection.

Edited April 13, 2024 by Calm

[Ragerunner]

On 4/13/2024 at 1:28 AM, manol said:

In my opinion:

Something that gets overlooked when the parable of the wheat and the tares comes up in the Sunday School lesson:

It is not the job of the wheat to decide who are the "tares"!   In the parable, that is the job of the ANGELS.  So unless any of us are able to see from the same perspective as the angels, and with the same wisdom as the angels, we would be out of place to presume we can judge who is wheat and who is tare.  That is simply not our job.  We do have jobs, but that is not one of them.  

To put it another way, if "the last shall be first, and the first shall be last", then obviously none of us are in a position to judge those we disagree with (or anyone else) to be among the "last".  That is simply not our job.  We do have jobs, but that is not one of them. 

Or as Brigham said (thanks for the quote @Doctor Steuss!): 

Let us observe the "Mormon Creed" - let everyone mind their own business. Everyone has weeds enough in his own garden to attend to without attending to the weeds in his neighbor's garden, for while you are attending to the weeds of your neighbor, those in your own will grow very thick and tall and will finally spoil the good seed.

 

No way do I belong on the same list.  I'll trot out my apostate credentials if I have to.  But, thank you anyway! 

Manol,

Honest inquiry. Can you point out how you know it’s Angels being referred to?

thanks

 

[manol]

1 hour ago, Ragerunner said:

Manol,

Honest inquiry. Can you point out how you know it’s Angels being referred to?

thanks

 

Just so we're on the same page, I don't claim to "know"; the first sentence of my post was "In my opinion:".

My opinion comes from the 13th chapter of Matthew, verses 36-43, wherein Jesus interprets the parable for his disciples:

"...his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.  He answered and said unto them... the reapers are the angels... The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity..."

I may be wrong in my interpretation of what the angels' job is, but the main point of my post was this:  Those who consider themselves wheat are not given the job of deciding who is wheat and who is tare. 

And if "the last shall be first, and the first shall be last", imo we may easily be WAY OFF in our judgments of who is wheat and who is tare.

"Judge not, that ye be not judged" is a more straightforward teaching of this concept, and is all too often rationalized away.  I wanted to show that the concept that "judging others is not our job" is actually consistent with a parable which is often used in a judgmental way, and which had been mentioned upthread.

Once again, this is just my opinion.   

 

 

Edited April 14, 2024 by manol

[Ragerunner]

4 hours ago, manol said:

Just so we're on the same page, I don't claim to "know"; the first sentence of my post was "In my opinion:".

My opinion comes from the 13th chapter of Matthew, verses 36-43, wherein Jesus interprets the parable for his disciples:

"...his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.  He answered and said unto them... the reapers are the angels... The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity..."

I may be wrong in my interpretation of what the angels' job is, but the main point of my post was this:  Those who consider themselves wheat are not given the job of deciding who is wheat and who is tare. 

And if "the last shall be first, and the first shall be last", imo we may easily be WAY OFF in our judgments of who is wheat and who is tare.

"Judge not, that ye be not judged" is a more straightforward teaching of this concept, and is all too often rationalized away.  I wanted to show that the concept that "judging others is not our job" is actually consistent with a parable which is often used in a judgmental way, and which had been mentioned upthread.

Once again, this is just my opinion.   

 

 

Thank you for the info, it is greatly appreciated.

[Duncan]

On 4/12/2024 at 8:52 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Sorry, I didn't see this until now.

What will eventually need to be cleared away are all the new revising of Church history to fit a pot-modern critical theory POV and those clamoring for doctrinal changes so they feel comfortable pursuing their fleshly, fallen desires. 

you mean like CWIC Media, Jacob Hansen and the other far right false prophets? I can't think of anyone "clamoring" more for "doctrinal changes" than those two people, they orchestrate letter writing campaigns for their followers to write the Brethren telling them to change this or that. Even Greg Matsen, CWIC media founder, said he has nothing better to do with his life so he criticizes the Church  and has deluded people into following him. I hope they will be be cleared away or repent will be good too. Incase you weren't aware Jacob Hansen's wife doesn't wear her garments like, it's a great example of "fleshy, fallen desires"

Edited April 15, 2024 by Duncan

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

 Incase you weren't aware Jacob Hansen's wife doesn't wear her garments like, it's a great example of "fleshy, fallen desires"

I wasn't aware. I'm not in the habit of inquiring about another man's wife's underclothing habits.

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I wasn't aware. I'm not in the habit of inquiring about another man's wife's underclothing habits.

Just her feminist leanings?  

[ZealouslyStriving]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Just her feminist leanings?  

Of course. 🤠🐎🐎 (my best attempt at patriarchy and horses)

Edited April 15, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[Duncan]

54 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I wasn't aware. I'm not in the habit of inquiring about another man's wife's underclothing habits.

stick to following Jesus not Jacob or whoever

[ZealouslyStriving]

12 minutes ago, Duncan said:

stick to following Jesus not Jacob or whoever

I follow Jesus and His Servant Joseph Smith Jr., as well as the current leadership of the Church. You can find my testimony in the "Social Hall" topics listing.

Thanks for the concern.

Edited April 15, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, Duncan said:

stick to following Jesus not Jacob or whoever

Good advice, and advice I need myself with the podcaster's I probably give too much trust to. 

[LoopyMTB]

I think there are other things to consider here.  LDS church history is full of false doctrines that were preached that lead to bad fruit.  Blacks were less valiant on the spirit world, lead to multiple generations even today that still believe this.  That is bad fruit.  So while the roots of the church are good, there are times when it will produce bad fruit (racist members in this case).  The church has since corrected (or pruned) this teaching and is in the process of correcting that mistake.  But it still hangs around.  Same thing goes for Adam God doctrine, blood anointment which denied the power of the atonement (bad fruit for sure), horrific teachings about women and their eventual destruction if they do not accept polygamy.  These have all been pruned.  

[mfbukowski]

On 4/11/2024 at 8:03 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

As I read Jacob 5 today verses 65-66 struck me as perhaps the answer to what is happening in the Church and why the leaders, as some worry, "aren't doing anything about it." or "seem to not know what is going on":

"65 And as they begin to grow ye shall clear away the branches which bring forth bitter fruit, according to the strength of the good and the size thereof;

and ye shall not clear away the bad thereof all at once, lest the roots thereof should be too strong for the graft, and the graft thereof shall perish, and I lose the trees of my vineyard.

66 For it grieveth me that I should lose the trees of my vineyard; wherefore

ye shall clear away the bad according as the good shall grow, that the root and the top may be equal in strength,

until the good shall overcome the bad, and the bad be hewn down and cast into the fire, that they cumber not the ground of my vineyard; and thus will I sweep away the bad out of my vineyard."

*Only the most bitter will be cleared away as the final work of digging, dunging, and pruning happens before the Second Coming- when a final clearing away will happen.*

Yeah, and Joseph the uneducated boy dreamed all this up.  Wow.  Gosh maybe he was a prophet or somptin' lak' at?

Blessed Bovine! 

Seriously, I for one never saw this passage like that.  I thought it should be in Better Home and Gardens magazine!

Good find- thanks!

[Calm]

On 4/12/2024 at 9:04 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Eventually, SOMEONE is going to be correct. At least a 🤏.

It is possible everyone will be wrong though and need correcting.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, LoopyMTB said:

I think there are other things to consider here.  LDS church history is full of false doctrines that were preached that lead to bad fruit.  Blacks were less valiant on the spirit world, lead to multiple generations even today that still believe this.  That is bad fruit.  So while the roots of the church are good, there are times when it will produce bad fruit (racist members in this case).  The church has since corrected (or pruned) this teaching and is in the process of correcting that mistake.  But it still hangs around.  Same thing goes for Adam God doctrine, blood anointment which denied the power of the atonement (bad fruit for sure), horrific teachings about women and their eventual destruction if they do not accept polygamy.  These have all been pruned.  

The good fruit to me is in the articles of faith about the Bible being true only as it is translated correctly, which opens it up to be wrong and how some things are of man. I especially think the idea of Eve being the one to mess up is why we have women in the world being treated so inhumanely. So I'm glad the church has a different take and that of Eve making the right decision not the wrong one. Even if I believe it's allegory. I still like how the church isn't like the other Christian religions. 

But you're right the bad fruit is there as well, and I like that the church isn't set in stone, and can change with time.