Jacob 5:65-66: Answer to What in the World is Happening in the Church Right Now?

[ZealouslyStriving]

As I read Jacob 5 today verses 65-66 struck me as perhaps the answer to what is happening in the Church and why the leaders, as some worry, "aren't doing anything about it." or "seem to not know what is going on":

"65 And as they begin to grow ye shall clear away the branches which bring forth bitter fruit, according to the strength of the good and the size thereof;

and ye shall not clear away the bad thereof all at once, lest the roots thereof should be too strong for the graft, and the graft thereof shall perish, and I lose the trees of my vineyard.

66 For it grieveth me that I should lose the trees of my vineyard; wherefore

ye shall clear away the bad according as the good shall grow, that the root and the top may be equal in strength,

until the good shall overcome the bad, and the bad be hewn down and cast into the fire, that they cumber not the ground of my vineyard; and thus will I sweep away the bad out of my vineyard."

*Only the most bitter will be cleared away as the final work of digging, dunging, and pruning happens before the Second Coming- when a final clearing away will happen.*

Edited April 11, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[MustardSeed]

I don’t follow. What have you felt needed to be “cleared away” that now you understand?

[GoCeltics]

34 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

As I read Jacob 5 today verses 65-66 struck me as perhaps the answer to what is happening in the Church and why the leaders, as some worry, "aren't doing anything about it." or "seem to not know what is going on":

"65 And as they begin to grow ye shall clear away the branches which bring forth bitter fruit, according to the strength of the good and the size thereof;

and ye shall not clear away the bad thereof all at once, lest the roots thereof should be too strong for the graft, and the graft thereof shall perish, and I lose the trees of my vineyard.

66 For it grieveth me that I should lose the trees of my vineyard; wherefore

ye shall clear away the bad according as the good shall grow, that the root and the top may be equal in strength,

until the good shall overcome the bad, and the bad be hewn down and cast into the fire, that they cumber not the ground of my vineyard; and thus will I sweep away the bad out of my vineyard."

*Only the most bitter will be cleared away as the final work of digging, dunging, and pruning happens before the Second Coming- when a final clearing away will happen.*

What do the roots symbolize in this passage?

[ZealouslyStriving]

The "roots" are what has really stood out to me the last couple of days and I've been trying to riddle that myself.

The ScripturePlus app says it's the covenant...

I'm thinking it's more the lost original knowledge that Margaret Barker and some LDS scholars are starting to rediscover, concerning temple rites and the Divine feminine.

I have some more studying, pondering, and praying to do. 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

The "roots" are what has really stood out to me the last couple of days and I've been trying to riddle that myself.

The ScripturePlus app says it's the covenant...

I'm thinking it's more the lost original knowledge that Margaret Barker and some LDS scholars are starting to rediscover, concerning temple rites and the Divine feminine.

I have some more studying, pondering, and praying to do. 

The roots of the house of Israel are the covenants reestablished in Abraham and which originated with Adam in the first dispensation. According to Jacob 5:11, the covenants need to be preserved. My take is that they are preserved in two ways: ensuring that descendants of the Abrahamic covenant are still around (whether they keep the covenants or not), and ensuring that the right descendants are around at the right time to prepare the world (vineyard) for the Second Coming. The Lord's end of the covenant is to protect the roots (covenants) and the branches (His children, the house of Israel, both natural and grafted).

Apostasy, personal and general, comes when the covenants are malnourished through disuse, corrupted through misuse, overrun by substitutes and so-called loftier alternatives, left in the hands of the wrong descendants.

[teddyaware]

22 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

As I read Jacob 5 today verses 65-66 struck me as perhaps the answer to what is happening in the Church and why the leaders, as some worry, "aren't doing anything about it." or "seem to not know what is going on":

"65 And as they begin to grow ye shall clear away the branches which bring forth bitter fruit, according to the strength of the good and the size thereof;

and ye shall not clear away the bad thereof all at once, lest the roots thereof should be too strong for the graft, and the graft thereof shall perish, and I lose the trees of my vineyard.

66 For it grieveth me that I should lose the trees of my vineyard; wherefore

ye shall clear away the bad according as the good shall grow, that the root and the top may be equal in strength,

until the good shall overcome the bad, and the bad be hewn down and cast into the fire, that they cumber not the ground of my vineyard; and thus will I sweep away the bad out of my vineyard."

*Only the most bitter will be cleared away as the final work of digging, dunging, and pruning happens before the Second Coming- when a final clearing away will happen.*

Bullseye!! Great observation! Many thanks!

For the reasons cited above, it’s wisdom in God that the rebellious members of the church be allowed to coexist with the valiant members for now because it would do the church more harm than good if the rebellious were cast out of the church at this point in time. Two likely reasons why aggressively pruning the vineyard at this point in time would do more harm than good are: 1) Many who are now in a state of arc-steadying rebellion will eventually realize the error of their ways and repent with full purpose if heart. 2) It’s needful for the valiant to be tested and tried in the refiner’s fire that will occur as a consequence of having to temporarily rub shoulders with the rebellious who will persecute the humble followers of Christ

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

22 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I don’t follow. What have you felt needed to be “cleared away” that now you understand?

Sorry, I didn't see this until now.

What will eventually need to be cleared away are all the new revising of Church history to fit a pot-modern critical theory POV and those clamoring for doctrinal changes so they feel comfortable pursuing their fleshly, fallen desires. 

[MustardSeed]

54 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Sorry, I didn't see this until now.

What will eventually need to be cleared away are all the new revising of Church history to fit a pot-modern critical theory POV and those clamoring for doctrinal changes so they feel comfortable pursuing their fleshly, fallen desires. 

Ok

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Sorry, I didn't see this until now.

What will eventually need to be cleared away are all the new revising of Church history to fit a pot-modern critical theory POV and those clamoring for doctrinal changes so they feel comfortable pursuing their fleshly, fallen desires. 

I don’t disagree with you.

But I’m always wary of these kind of pronouncements because inevitably what the person making the announcement seems to be saying is that “what needs to be cleared away is everyone who doesn’t believe the exact same way that I do.”

[ZealouslyStriving]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don’t disagree with you.

But I’m always wary of these kind of pronouncements because inevitably what the person making the announcement seems to be saying is that “what needs to be cleared away is everyone who doesn’t believe the exact same way that I do.”

Eventually, SOMEONE is going to be correct. At least a 🤏.

[ZealouslyStriving]

21 hours ago, CV75 said:

The roots of the house of Israel are the covenants reestablished in Abraham and which originated with Adam in the first dispensation. According to Jacob 5:11, the covenants need to be preserved. My take is that they are preserved in two ways: ensuring that descendants of the Abrahamic covenant are still around (whether they keep the covenants or not), and ensuring that the right descendants are around at the right time to prepare the world (vineyard) for the Second Coming. The Lord's end of the covenant is to protect the roots (covenants) and the branches (His children, the house of Israel, both natural and grafted).

Apostasy, personal and general, comes when the covenants are malnourished through disuse, corrupted through misuse, overrun by substitutes and so-called loftier alternatives, left in the hands of the wrong descendants.

I just had an eye-opening experience as a read the end of Jacob 5 this morning!

The roots being the eternal covenant made to Abraham and his posterity, and it having the possibility of being overrun and killed by bad fruit producing branches, and the Lord of the vineyard needing to destroy the whole vineyard if that happened, made me think of the earth being utterly wasted and cursed at his coming if temple ordinances of sealing were not performed. Then it dawned on me- the primary work the servant (Joseph Smith Jr.) and the servants he brings with him (succeeding Church presidents) is the join together families and previous dispensations through Temple work. Making the roots (ancestors) and the branches (descendants) equal. 

"15 And now, my dearly beloved brethren and sisters, let me assure you that these are principles in relation to the dead and the living that cannot be lightly passed over, as pertaining to our salvation. For their salvation is necessary and essential to our salvation, as Paul says concerning the fathers—that they without us cannot be made perfect—neither can we without our dead be made perfect." (Doctrine and Covenants 128)

Jacob 5 is primarily about the House of the Lord!

*Hope that all made sense.*

Edited April 12, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[longview]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Bullseye!! Great observation! Many thanks!

For the reasons cited above, it’s wisdom in God that the rebellious members of the church be allowed to coexist with the valiant members for now because it would do the church more harm than good if the rebellious were cast out of the church at this point in time. Two likely reasons why aggressively pruning the vineyard at this point in time would do more harm than good are: 1) Many who are now in a state of arc-steadying rebellion will eventually realize the error of their ways and repent with full purpose if heart. 2) It’s needful for the valiant to be tested and tried in the refiner’s fire that will occur as a consequence of having to temporarily rub shoulders with the rebellious who will persecute the humble followers of Christ

 

Hence the parable of the wheat and the tares. The most bitter are obviously subjected to discipline and excommunication. The various shades of grey are allowed to mingle and participate. At least until the times of greater and greater testing.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Eventually, SOMEONE is going to be correct. At least a 🤏.

But, it's just odd how the people (who never seem to have the authority or stewardship to correct anyone) telling everyone else they need to change, always believe they are the someone who is correct.  

[ZealouslyStriving]

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But, it's just odd how the people (who never seem to have the authority or stewardship to correct anyone) telling everyone else they need to change, always believe they are the someone who is correct.  

Crying repentance and warning people is telling people to change and all believers have been called to do that.

We are told " Cry repentance unto this generation.",

not

"Cry do your own thing, because we are evaluating perennial doctrines in light of post-modern thinking and we could be wrong, unto this generation."

Edited April 12, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[MustardSeed]

 

Zealously:

We are taught to do many things in the scriptures.  You choose to identify what others are doing that you think is wrong and to “cry repentance.”

I’m curious if this method has been effective for you and those you deem as sinners, in your previous attempts?  

Edited April 12, 2024 by MustardSeed

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Bullseye!! Great observation! Many thanks!

For the reasons cited above, it’s wisdom in God that the rebellious members of the church be allowed to coexist with the valiant members for now because it would do the church more harm than good if the rebellious were cast out of the church at this point in time. Two likely reasons why aggressively pruning the vineyard at this point in time would do more harm than good are: 1) Many who are now in a state of arc-steadying rebellion will eventually realize the error of their ways and repent with full purpose if heart. 2) It’s needful for the valiant to be tested and tried in the refiner’s fire that will occur as a consequence of having to temporarily rub shoulders with the rebellious who will persecute the humble followers of Christ

Yes, all those persecutions you are enduring right now. Care to lay them out for the whole class? I bet they make the martyrs of the fifth seal look like amateurs by comparison. They were only murdered for their faith. Imagine if they had faced real persecutions like the “woke” menace and people saying mean things on the interwebz.

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, all those persecutions you are enduring right now. Care to lay them out for the whole class? I bet they make the martyrs of the fifth seal look like amateurs by comparison. They were only murdered for their faith. Imagine if they had faced real persecutions like the “woke” menace and people saying mean things on the interwebz.

🙄

[Smiley McGee]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Bullseye!! Great observation! Many thanks!

For the reasons cited above, it’s wisdom in God that the rebellious members of the church be allowed to coexist with the valiant members for now because it would do the church more harm than good if the rebellious were cast out of the church at this point in time. Two likely reasons why aggressively pruning the vineyard at this point in time would do more harm than good are: 1) Many who are now in a state of arc-steadying rebellion will eventually realize the error of their ways and repent with full purpose if heart. 2) It’s needful for the valiant to be tested and tried in the refiner’s fire that will occur as a consequence of having to temporarily rub shoulders with the rebellious who will persecute the humble followers of Christ

 

 

3 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Sorry, I didn't see this until now.

What will eventually need to be cleared away are all the new revising of Church history to fit a pot-modern critical theory POV and those clamoring for doctrinal changes so they feel comfortable pursuing their fleshly, fallen desires. 

We’ll have to see how things shake out. Perhaps you will find yourselves out of a church that no longer believes in a narrow-minded God with a preoccupation with an unsupportable historical narrative. In the meantime, stay strong in the face of all of the persecution you have to endure…must be really difficult to have people disagree with you.

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 minute ago, Smiley McGee said:

 

We’ll have to see how things shake out. Perhaps you will find yourselves out of a church that no longer believes in a narrow-minded God with a preoccupation with an unsupportable historical narrative. In the meantime, stay strong in the face of all of the persecution you have to endure…must be really difficult to have people disagree with you.

There will always be those loyal to Joseph and the fullness of the Restored Gospel... I'm not worried.

[bluebell]

31 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Crying repentance and warning people is telling people to change and all believers have been called to do that.

We are told " Cry repentance unto this generation.",

not

"Cry do your own thing, because we are evaluating perennial doctrines in light of post-modern thinking and we could be wrong, unto this generation."

But, where in the scriptures does it equate crying repentance to teaching that people need to clear away all the new revising of Church history that fits a pot-modern critical theory POV along with those "clamoring for doctrinal changes so they feel comfortable pursuing their fleshly, fallen desires"?

 

[Doctor Steuss]

Sometimes, being obsessed with what you believe to be happening in the vineyard requires overlooking your own vine.  Or something pillow-embroidery-worthy like that.

 

Let us observe the "Mormon Creed" - let everyone mind their own business. Everyone has weeds enough in his own garden to attend to without attending to the weeds in his neighbor's garden, for while you are attending to the weeds of your neighbor, those in your own will grow very thick and tall and will finally spoil the good seed.

~Brigham Young

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, Doctor Steuss said:

Sometimes, being obsessed with what you believe to be happening in the vineyard requires overlooking your own vine.  Or something pillow-embroidery-worthy like that.

 

Let us observe the "Mormon Creed" - let everyone mind their own business. Everyone has weeds enough in his own garden to attend to without attending to the weeds in his neighbor's garden, for while you are attending to the weeds of your neighbor, those in your own will grow very thick and tall and will finally spoil the good seed.

~Brigham Young

Amen.

[ZealouslyStriving]

I think several of you are missing the point of my original post.

The whole point is to NOT worry so much that the goats are baaa-ing so loudly. What needs to be cleared will be cleared in the due time of the Lord.

[Smiley McGee]

3 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I think several of you are missing the point of my original post.

The whole point is to NOT worry so much that the goats are baaa-ing so loudly. What needs to be cleared will be cleared in the due time of the Lord.

Nah, it’s that no one trusts your ability to distinguish between sheep and goats. So the “whole point” of your post is useless. 

[MustardSeed]

11 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I think several of you are missing the point of my original post.

The whole point is to NOT worry so much that the goats are baaa-ing so loudly. What needs to be cleared will be cleared in the due time of the Lord.

I find that disingenuous - I think there was a significant point and purpose to your original post.  

If your intent was innocent of judgement, you should know by now how it comes across.