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Skin Color Doesn’t Mean Skin Color

jkwilliams

By jkwilliams
in General Discussions

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juliann Grand Master

juliann

Posted
Posted
46 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I don't believe there are any prophets as far as I understand what that word means.  It is you who has to reconcile what your prophets have taught and said as compared to what they run away from now. Not me. It is clearly all made up and ad hoc as they run along.

You mean we have to acknowledge that prophets of that era could also be racist? We do. The only person running away is YOU. When are you going to address Kevin's well sourced long responses here? When are you going to respond to anything at all rather than merely throw new insults while claiming those you insult aren't nice enough to deserve a responseof substance?

What is becoming of more interesting to me is the fury over my calling racist people dumb. Ummmm....that is offensive to you? Should I call them smart to please you?

-1
california boy Grand Master

california boy

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, juliann said:

So you are brand new here and have never participated in the endless discussions of prophetic infallibility. Or you forgot? Or you are pretending you have not heard the responses to this so you don't have to engage with them. Ever. 

Go back and reread what I said. Then show me where the Bible has racist teachings in it rather than those who used it to support their racism. Better still, support your idea that your idea of racism was even a concept in Biblical (or BOM) times.  

 

race-baiting
noun [ U ]
 mainly US disapproving (also race baiting)
 
US 
 
 /ˈreɪs ˌbeɪ.t̬ɪŋ/ UK 
 
 /ˈreɪs ˌbeɪ.tɪŋ/
 
the act of intentionally encouraging racism or anger about issues relating to race, often to get a political advantage
 

race-baiting

[ reys-bey ting ]SHOW IPA
0b29c1db2f0b1c9452c7.svg
 
noun

  1. acts of racist provocation, especially in speech and writing, including racial dog whistles, hate speech, threats, and other forms of harassment targeting one or more racial groups or members of such a group, often in the context of political or cultural polemics.

  2. any rhetoric or act that pits one racial group against another or incites racial hatred.

I didn't ask for a definition of race-baiting.  I asked you to show where I have done any race-baiting.  Just STOP this name calling.  

Either provide a quote where I have said something that is race baiting or withdraw the accusation and apologize.  

1
juliann Grand Master

juliann

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, Calm said:

So it’s okay to accuse people of gaslighting, but abusive to accuse them of racebaiting?

Dumb/stupid bad/mental gymnastics good?

Yup. And racists aren't dumb (I would willingly call them other stuff but that might really upset the race baiters). 

Gotta love double standards. 

-1
ZealouslyStriving Grand Master

ZealouslyStriving

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Fair enough. I wasn't sure about your position on that, so took your arguments with respect to atheists as coming from that quarter.

As I've admitted, there is no way (short of him showing up in all his glory) to prove objectively that he exists. If he did show up in his glory, no doubt many would nevertheless say he was something else. 

The only proof we are likely to get in life is a personal (and subjective) one. My first intimation about God was the expression of my great-grandmother's faith. I lived with her for a time after my mother died when I was seven. She read Bible stories and the Bible itself to me, and also sent me to her local church a number of times (she couldn't go herself due to health issues). I learned a bunch of standard Christian stuff, along with a few songs, such as Onward, Christian Soldiers. After my dad (like you, a skeptical agnostic) remarried, I got very little religious training. Except for my nominally Baptist stepmom taking my brother and I to her church twice a year (Easter and Christmas).

But one day I got acquainted with a boy my age (we were 13) while walking home from school. He and I were walking down the street when I asked him what he wanted to do when he grew up. He said he wanted to go on a mission. I thought "Oh, no, a religious fanatic!" I asked "Are you Catholic?" But of course, no, he was a Mormon. And so it began. I'm not going to bore you with my entire conversion story, but I'll give you the TL;DR: although it took me a year to be baptized, I felt the truth of it from the beginning, and within a few months of my baptism I had received some significant experiences with the Spirit. Something that has continued to occur over time.

Without being able to provide "proof" of God's existence, I know He exists and the LDS church is His Son's church on earth. I'd be heartbroken if I lost that conviction, because it has given me a great deal of comfort during life's vicissitudes, and I'm sorry that you have lost it. I suppose there might be some truth in an insinuation that I only hold to it because I'm afraid to let it go. But it's not desperation; I am quite comfortable with the evidences I have received.

As for Odin, perhaps he is our God who was revealed to the Norsemen by a true prophet. We learn from the Book of Mormon, in 2 Nephi 29:12 - "For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it."

So, who is to say that the polytheistic religion of the Norsemen was not an apostatized version of God's true religion? Time will tell.

All religions (except the Church....) are shadows of true religion. When Noah and his family got off the boat there was only one religion. So truth can, indeed, be found everywhere if we know what we are looking for.

Teancum Grand Master

Teancum

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Calm said:

So it’s okay to accuse people of gaslighting, but abusive to accuse them of racebaiting?

Dumb/stupid bad/mental gymnastics good?

I did not throw out the gaslighting comment till Julianne swooped in and called me a race baiter out of the box.

Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I did not throw out the gaslighting comment till Julianne swooped in and called me a race baiter out of the box.

So you agree accusing of “gaslighting” and its variations is verbal abuse?

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75765-skin-color-doesn’t-mean-skin-color/?do=findComment&comment=1210176687

 

Edited by Calm
juliann Grand Master

juliann

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, california boy said:

I didn't ask for a definition of race-baiting.  I asked you to show where I have done any race-baiting.  Just STOP this name calling.  

Either provide a quote where I have said something that is race baiting or withdraw the accusation and apologize.  

Going into a group of people to bring up ugly racist things that have been disavowed, and refusing to acknowledge the disavowal,  is the very definition of race baiting. I doubt I called you a race baiter personally but there certainly is race baiting going on. Your quote above does not show me calling you that.

Whether done personally or just in a pile on, no one gets to run from that anymore than we can run from a racist past. 

I reject that it is name calling when the definition fits and it is an accepted term for a specified behavior. And it is downright funny that after the decades I have been on this board that anyone thinks calling me mean or nasty to avoid responding to documentation is an effective deterrent. 

You guys can begin to respond to documentation that has been posted at any time rather than continue with the baseless accusations.  Start ENGAGING if you don't want race baiting behavior labeled.  

juliann Grand Master

juliann

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I did not throw out the gaslighting comment till Julianne swooped in and called me a race baiter out of the box.

I came in to attack her beliefs out of the box and she labeled that behavior before I started name calling!

Teancum Grand Master

Teancum

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, juliann said:

I came in to attack her beliefs out of the box and she labeled that behavior before I started name calling!

What do you want from me Juliann?  Tell me and I will try to oblige.  But not tonight.

SeekingUnderstanding Grand Master

SeekingUnderstanding

Posted
Posted
17 minutes ago, juliann said:

What is becoming of more interesting to me is the fury over my calling racist people dumb

Respectfully, you said that people who didn’t agree with your interpretation were either stupid OR racist. Nice try though. 

1
Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted
24 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Fair enough. I wasn't sure about your position on that, so took your arguments with respect to atheists as coming from that quarter.

As I've admitted, there is no way (short of him showing up in all his glory) to prove objectively that he exists. If he did show up in his glory, no doubt many would nevertheless say he was something else. 

The only proof we are likely to get in life is a personal (and subjective) one. My first intimation about God was the expression of my great-grandmother's faith. I lived with her for a time after my mother died when I was seven. She read Bible stories and the Bible itself to me, and also sent me to her local church a number of times (she couldn't go herself due to health issues). I learned a bunch of standard Christian stuff, along with a few songs, such as Onward, Christian Soldiers. After my dad (like you, a skeptical agnostic) remarried, I got very little religious training. Except for my nominally Baptist stepmom taking my brother and I to her church twice a year (Easter and Christmas).

But one day I got acquainted with a boy my age (we were 13) while walking home from school. He and I were walking down the street when I asked him what he wanted to do when he grew up. He said he wanted to go on a mission. I thought "Oh, no, a religious fanatic!" I asked "Are you Catholic?" But of course, no, he was a Mormon. And so it began. I'm not going to bore you with my entire conversion story, but I'll give you the TL;DR: although it took me a year to be baptized, I felt the truth of it from the beginning, and within a few months of my baptism I had received some significant experiences with the Spirit. Something that has continued to occur over time.

Without being able to provide "proof" of God's existence, I know He exists and the LDS church is His Son's church on earth. I'd be heartbroken if I lost that conviction, because it has given me a great deal of comfort during life's vicissitudes, and I'm sorry that you have lost it. I suppose there might be some truth in an insinuation that I only hold to it because I'm afraid to let it go. But it's not desperation; I am quite comfortable with the evidences I have received.

As for Odin, perhaps he is our God who was revealed to the Norsemen by a true prophet. We learn from the Book of Mormon, in 2 Nephi 29:12 - "For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it."

So, who is to say that the polytheistic religion of the Norsemen was not an apostatized version of God's true religion? Time will tell.

I think you do what I do by holding onto the LDS faith. I hold onto the belief in God and the Saviour because they give me comfort, as well as give me hope to see my loved ones again. 

2
SeekingUnderstanding Grand Master

SeekingUnderstanding

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, juliann said:

Going into a group of people to bring up ugly racist things that have been disavowed, and refusing to acknowledge the disavowal,  is the very definition of race baiting.

Is it your view that the church has unequivocally and officially stated that the skin of blackness in the book Mormon does not equal a change of actual skin color? I must have missed that statement. 

1
Stargazer Grand Master

Stargazer

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

All religions (except the Church....) are shadows of true religion. When Noah and his family got off the boat there was only one religion. So truth can, indeed, be found everywhere if we know what we are looking for.

Even the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a shadow of true religion. Just to a much lesser degree than all others. When President Nelson declared that the Restoration was still ongoing, that was an implicit recognition that we hadn't yet gotten all the way there, yet.

In my humble opinion, at least.

1
Stargazer Grand Master

Stargazer

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I think you do what I do by holding onto the LDS faith. I hold onto the belief in God and the Saviour because they give me comfort, as well as give me hope to see my loved ones again. 

I am so happy to be able to upvote your posts! 

1
ZealouslyStriving Grand Master

ZealouslyStriving

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I think you do what I do by holding onto the LDS faith. I hold onto the belief in God and the Saviour because they give me comfort, as well as give me hope to see my loved ones again. 

Amen! That's what started me back to the covenant path- the hope of being with my late wife. If I am wrong but I live like it's right, what have I really lost?

Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Honestly, we're all dumb. Some are just more refined in their dumbness.

All good things you have to say ZealouslyStriving! Keep'em coming, we need a reprieve. Or not sure reprieve works here, but I'll still go with it. 

Edited by Tacenda
ZealouslyStriving Grand Master

ZealouslyStriving

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Even the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a shadow of true religion. Just to a much lesser degree than all others. When President Nelson declared that the Restoration was still ongoing, that was an implicit recognition that we hadn't yet gotten all the way there, yet.

In my humble opinion, at least.

Right! The Restoration is a process. Line upon line... Good catch!

juliann Grand Master

juliann

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Respectfully, Marvin’s piece is long and a lot to digest…

? I posted a short quote to establish the meaning of black in the BOM. In other words, I directly engaged the baseless accusations. And no response other than "you failed." 

1
Teancum Grand Master

Teancum

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Is it your view that the church has unequivocally and officially stated that the skin of blackness in the book Mormon does not equal a change of actual skin color? I must have missed that statement. 

It is part of the general disavowal of all prior racist teachings and things that @bluebellshared I presume.  Issued in 2013:

"The church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavour or curse, or that it reflects actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form."

SeekingUnderstanding Grand Master

SeekingUnderstanding

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, juliann said:

You guys can begin to respond to documentation that has been posted at any time rather than continue with the baseless accusations.  Start ENGAGING if you don't want race baiting behavior labeled.  

My initial thoughts are one, I would love to see the church officially endorse Mervin’s interpretation and also specifically condemn the old interpretation as racist. I think it would be a big step forward for your church as a global entity. But two, I also remain wholly unconvinced that his interpretation is correct - but then as you state, I view the book as a 19th century work. I may or may not find time to go into more detail.

Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Stargazer said:

Just to a much lesser degree than all others.

I am open to areas where we might not be as “true” as some others….such as in the areas of what we call “true religion” and other aspects of charity, though I think we do quite well on the practical side with the welfare and fast offerings effort.  There still may be things we could learn from other faiths though (such as creating space for those who turn over their entire lives and resources in consecration to God and service such as the Franciscans as well as I think our religious worship through art is not as well developed or recognized as it is in other faiths).

1
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