Skin Color Doesn’t Mean Skin Color

[juliann]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Really the one who is racist here is not the "dumb Mormons" (how typically condescending of you.  The dumb mormons includes your prior so called prophets, seers and revelators).  What I am sick to death about is self proclaimed apologists like you tossing LDS leaders and other members, and ex mormons, under the bus because they are not as "enlightened as you.  What a gaslighter you are.

Whatever. When I don't say what you want, just rearrange it for me, eh?

Dumb Mormons are those who want to stick with the discarded racist ideas when there are options for more enlightened and loving views. Gosh, there is even a thinly disguised threat to temple recommends for dumb Mormons now. I know, ignore, ignore, ignore....

I'm flattered that you think that the call for the end of racism is all MY idea. LOL

[juliann]

Thanks to Calm, here is another reference for racebaiters to ignore! The verses that explain the "black and white" reference. 

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/conference/august-2014/blacks-scriptures

Quote

 

For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the fheathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile. 

2 Nephi 26:33

2 Nephi 26:33 “and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.” Well, you now know that this has nothing to do with race. They’re talking about the wicked or the righteous, those who, you know, have left the fold, or those who stay in the fold. Now, the beautiful thing about it is that he gave (“he” being the Lord) gave Joseph Smith the same pattern to translate with a slight twist in each of these three. So, here you have the same pattern with your – “black and white, bond and free, male and female.” Now compare that to Alma 1:30 and Alma 11:44.

(slide)

Alma 1:30 & 11:44

Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous;

Alma 11:44

…and they did not set their hearts upon riches; therefore they were liberal to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, whether out of the church or in the church, having no respect to persons as to those who stood in need.

Alma 1:30

Now, in Alma 1:30 and behold “…they did not set their hearts upon riches; therefore they were liberal to all, both old and young,” (there’s your pattern) “…bond and free… male and female, whether out of the church or in the church,” There’s your black or white. 

How about Alma 11: 44? “Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free… male and female,” (again, there’s your pattern) “both the wicked and the righteous.” 

 

 

It really is time for empty handed accusers to begin to engage. Again, this has been out there for at least a decade. 

[juliann]

OK, I better put this into a shorter easier to read version so it isn't so easy to ignore. Here are parallel verses that spell out what "black" means, so rather than "black and white" they  use, 

both the wicked and the righteous

whether out of the church or in the church

Do we need to explain why this is critical in textual criticism? Do the accusers care?

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, SteveO said:

Ironically, that would be evidence of it being a contemporary work.  
 

http://www.nauvoo.com/library/card-bookofmormon.html

Good read from Orson Card.  Fiction writers leave their fingerprints everywhere, because they want to show you how Awesome their ideas are.  They have to stop the narrative and show you, explain to you all the interesting things that might be foreign.  The only time the narrative stops to clarify in the Book of Mormon is the explanation of money and weights, which have clearly changed in the 400 years since the original story and Mormon’s compilation.

There are other asides. Mormon stops to explain that Nephite military commanders were chosen who had the gift of prophecy for example.

When I talk about adding an aside I mean more the kind of aside Joseph added as explanatory. The most glaring example is in Nephi’s Isaiah quotation where he takes “waters of Judah” and adds that it also means “waters of baptism”.

And Orson Scott Card always messes with me. In some ways I feel I owe him a debt. He gave me my first mostly sympathetic queer character in literature and wrote books that screamed out to closeted queer kids. I suspect Card would be horrified at how many queer awakenings he triggered or helped along.

A good piece on this weird juxtaposition:

https://www.wired.com/2013/10/enders-game/

Quote

 

These days, it's easier for me to think of them as two separate people -- the Card I knew, whose books I loved; and the increasingly unbalanced and extremist pundit whose worldview scarcely counts me as a person. But that's reductionist, and a disservice to both. Card is a monster who helped me learn to write, an author of hateful screed whose novels taught lonely, angry kids compassion and gave them their first sense of home. None of those things makes the others go away. None of those things makes the others stop mattering.

I am not Ender. The enemy's gate is not down. And some battles can't be won.

Edit: If “grooming” people to turn them queer was a real thing (which I do not believe) Orson Scott Card was a prolific groomer.

Edited February 26, 2024 by The Nehor

[juliann]

Not that I'm keeping track or anything, but I've put up at least 3 references. Not ONE has even been addressed let alone elicited any engagement. That is why this is nothing but racebaiting. There is no interest in a discussion, certainly no interest in discovery. And worst of all, every interest in keep racism alive and well. 

Can't wait to see racebaiters school Marvin Perkins, who is Black. Will the white race baiters call him a gaslighter to avoid engagement? 

[Meadowchik]

Why is verbal abuse being tolerated????

Juliann my guess is that most will not want to engage with you (if they disagree) because you are being abusive.

 

[Teancum]

6 hours ago, juliann said:

It is almost always those who have issues with the church who double down on keeping it racist. It is very common for former members to retain their fundamentalism, which they use when they come here to keep alive no matter how often we correct them. It's tiresome. Especially when they want to rub their stuff in Black members faces. When does the ugly quote from BY come out to keep them in their place? That used to be standard stuff. 

Look up race baiting. Then don't pretend we regularly start threads to tell Black people how inferior they are. 

Then start engaging with the rebuttals to the racism being promoted here. 

This thread was started based on an apologetic from a woman arguing that skin of darkness meant something other than what the text lanly says and what all the "dumb" Mormons and their leaders taught about the text for 150 years plus.  So who is doing the race baiting here?  

[Teancum]

6 hours ago, juliann said:

Yup. Race baiting deserves indignation. Or it should. 

Are you completely clueless how "black" is used in the Bible? Yet you feel qualified to come here and preach racist ideas you are bound and determined to keep in place no matter how much others have moved on?

Nah.  You are the one who is clueless, disingenuous and a gaslighter.

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Where is your evidence that God doesn't exist? Yes, I know it is logically impossible to prove a negative. At least, not this kind of negative. 

FIrst I am not an atheist.  I an a skeptical agnostic.  I am very open to a higher power.  But I am fairly comfortable concluding that the theistic god of Judaism, Christianity, Mormonism and Islam is fictional. BUt that is not a faith proposition. It is lack of evidence based. And yes, I cannot prove a negative.  It is up to he person claiming that there is a theistic God to prove it.  It is like me asking you to provide evidence that Odin is not God.

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Ah, I remember the good old days when Teancum was here to defend the Church!

I saw the light.  Join me.  😀😁😉

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

Of course you will pass. Have you seen anyone denying Mormonism has a history of racism? The way you guys are screaming "squirrel!" to divert attention to your lack of engagement with scholarship after your attempts of baseless accusations is, unfortunately, typical. 

I clearly said I was going to have to do other things, so your attempt to accuse me of being unable to provide a biblical reference is just more of the same. You could easily google this since it is common knowledge for anyone acquainted with biblical criticism, but discussion is not your intent. This has been put up here so many times your claim to ignorance is unconvincing. Check out Job's black face, too!

 Jeremiah 14:2: Judah mourns, and her gates languish; they mourn [literally, are black] for the land, and the cry of Jerusalem has gone up.

 Lamentations 5:10: Our skin is hot [literally, black] as an oven, because of the fever of famine.

 Joel 2:6: Before them the people writhe in pain; all faces are drained of color [literally, gather blackness].

Nahum 2:10: She is empty, desolate, and waste! The heart melts, and the knees shake; much pain is in every side, and all their faces are drained of color [literally, gather blackness].

 

 

You have failed in my CFR.

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

You don't believe modern prophets and prefer the old. Yet there are in your face quotes, from LDS.org, that we are to follow current prophets and that there have been mistakes made. Do I have to find that for you (again), too? 

So here we are. You demand that we only pay attention to previous generations and the church and I demand that you pay attention to current teachings. Is that why you ignore the quote I put up about the latest, very new, official statement? And you wonder why we are sick of playing with race baiters? 

I don't believe there are any prophets as far as I understand what that word means.  It is you who has to reconcile what your prophets have taught and said as compared to what they run away from now. Not me. It is clearly all made up and ad hoc as they run along.

[ZealouslyStriving]

4 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I don't believe there are any prophets as far as I understand what that word means.  It is you who has to reconcile what your prophets have taught and said as compared to what they run away from now. Not me. It is clearly all made up and ad hoc as they run along.

What is your understanding of the word "prophet"?

ZealouslyStriving (Mosiah 27:35)

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

Well, heaven forbid the church should do exactly what it has always claimed...."continuing revelation." 

Go do some reading on these topics in LDS.org. We can't help it if the church moving on bothers you. I hope to see a lot more changes and I'm sure there will be. If it enrages you to encounter more very needed enlightenment, maybe stop reading it? I found my life improved when I stopped watching political cable channels. Just sayin'.

I am quite happy if the church moves on. I jut think the gaslighters need to be held accountable.  

As for your other ad hominems I will add my own.  You really can be a nasty person.  Are these the fruits of your "gospel?" 

[Teancum]

41 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Why is verbal abuse being tolerated????

Juliann my guess is that most will not want to engage with you (if they disagree) because you are being abusive.

 

Yea pretty much. 

[juliann]

35 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Nah.  You are the one who is clueless, disingenuous and a gaslighter.

Says the not nasty poster. [insert eye roll]

And still not one response to references and documentation. 

[juliann]

45 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Why is verbal abuse being tolerated????

Juliann my guess is that most will not want to engage with you (if they disagree) because you are being abusive.

 

And yet I am responding, with documentation, to the other abusers who have done nothing but accuse and abuse. 

19 minutes ago, Teancum said:

You have failed in my CFR.

Oh, wow. No response to the documentation at all. None. Zip. Zero. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

5 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Yea pretty much. 

Isn't that the only way people communicate now?! 🤕

[juliann]

10 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I am quite happy if the church moves on. I jut think the gaslighters need to be held accountable.  

As for your other ad hominems I will add my own.  You really can be a nasty person.  Are these the fruits of your "gospel?" 

Beyond lame. And evasive, as usual. I am curious, though. Why the pretense that no one acknowledges the racism of the past? Weird. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

Everybody breathe.... Ommmmmmmmmmmmmm🧘

[ZealouslyStriving]

Judging people 200 years ago by today's sensitivities is short-sighted (myopic). BY and others weren't any more racist than your average citizen of European descent. And the Wards were always integrated - which is far better than nominal Christianity at the time. The Restoration is a process understanding takes time, even in the Lord's Church. He didn't reveal everything at once, but "line upon line..." In the meantime good men do the best they can trying to listen for the Spirit's direction. Do they always get it right? No. Sometimes the ark gets wobbly, we just have to continue choosing faith.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

But it  isn't disagreeing with me, is it. It is disagreeing with official church statements, scholarship, and plain common sense. (BLACK skin in that region? Really?) 

We probably all have to work on racism, but racists who insist on holding on to discarded ideas when there are other options are stupid .... they are LDS or not. 

I don't believe he's holding onto these ideas, he's just stating what happened. I'd say that some have issues with CRT or critical race theory but I believe we need to still educate about the former and maybe current racism in societies as to not repeat these. I believe @SeekingUnderstanding would let it go if some on here weren't saying this didn't happen with leaders in the past. 

Edited February 27, 2024 by Tacenda

[Stargazer]

13 minutes ago, Teancum said:

FIrst I am not an atheist.  I an a skeptical agnostic.  I am very open to a higher power.  But I am fairly comfortable concluding that the theistic god of Judaism, Christianity, Mormonism and Islam is fictional. BUt that is not a faith proposition. It is lack of evidence based. And yes, I cannot prove a negative.  It is up to he person claiming that there is a theistic God to prove it.  It is like me asking you to provide evidence that Odin is not God.

Fair enough. I wasn't sure about your position on that, so took your arguments with respect to atheists as coming from that quarter.

As I've admitted, there is no way (short of him showing up in all his glory) to prove objectively that he exists. If he did show up in his glory, no doubt many would nevertheless say he was something else. 

The only proof we are likely to get in life is a personal (and subjective) one. My first intimation about God was the expression of my great-grandmother's faith. I lived with her for a time after my mother died when I was seven. She read Bible stories and the Bible itself to me, and also sent me to her local church a number of times (she couldn't go herself due to health issues). I learned a bunch of standard Christian stuff, along with a few songs, such as Onward, Christian Soldiers. After my dad (like you, a skeptical agnostic) remarried, I got very little religious training. Except for my nominally Baptist stepmom taking my brother and I to her church twice a year (Easter and Christmas).

But one day I got acquainted with a boy my age (we were 13) while walking home from school. He and I were walking down the street when I asked him what he wanted to do when he grew up. He said he wanted to go on a mission. I thought "Oh, no, a religious fanatic!" I asked "Are you Catholic?" But of course, no, he was a Mormon. And so it began. I'm not going to bore you with my entire conversion story, but I'll give you the TL;DR: although it took me a year to be baptized, I felt the truth of it from the beginning, and within a few months of my baptism I had received some significant experiences with the Spirit. Something that has continued to occur over time.

Without being able to provide "proof" of God's existence, I know He exists and the LDS church is His Son's church on earth. I'd be heartbroken if I lost that conviction, because it has given me a great deal of comfort during life's vicissitudes, and I'm sorry that you have lost it. I suppose there might be some truth in an insinuation that I only hold to it because I'm afraid to let it go. But it's not desperation; I am quite comfortable with the evidences I have received.

As for Odin, perhaps he is our God who was revealed to the Norsemen by a true prophet. We learn from the Book of Mormon, in 2 Nephi 29:12 - "For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it."

So, who is to say that the polytheistic religion of the Norsemen was not an apostatized version of God's true religion? Time will tell.

[Stargazer]

49 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I saw the light.  Join me.  😀😁😉

As amusing as your invitation is, I cannot accept it because your light is darkness to me. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Why is verbal abuse being tolerated????

So it’s okay to accuse people of gaslighting, but abusive to accuse them of racebaiting?

Dumb/stupid bad/mental gymnastics good?

Edited February 27, 2024 by Calm