Looking for help Posted January 18, 2024 Posted January 18, 2024 Hi. I’m a life-long LDS member outside of a break from the church from ages 14-21. I’m in my 30’s now, sealed in the temple with three young kids, and have remained very active over the last 12+ years since I came back from my “break”. I have struggled over a multi-year period on the question if God is real. The point of this post is not to try and convince anyone that God is not real, I genuinely want to believe that He is and am looking for people to help me work through this issue. The nagging question that has dominated my mind is if men have made up religion over time to help themselves feel better about, and give purpose to, life. Everyone wants to know why they are on the earth, how they got here, where they go after. I understand logically that religion provides answers to these questions and that these answers (if believed faithfully) give us peace and purpose. What I can’t get out of my head is what if all these things were made up specifically to fill those gaps but is not true. I’m not calling anyone a liar or saying anyone is pretending to believe - I absolutely believe the leaders of our church (and most members) truly do believe it all and are not trying to mislead us in any way. I desperately wish that I didn’t have these doubts, but I do. What is life is just completely random and the bad things that happen to us are not part of a plan? What if all the suffering (a child dying, losing jobs, etc.) has no silver lining and are just random happenings that will make our lives worse. I struggle to see how God could allow a lot of things that happen in the world everyday - there are so many places where people suffer and die from hunger, people are regularly beaten and raped. A family with young children loses a mom or a dad. How can that be a part of God’s plan in any way? There are other more scientific questions about the Big Bang theory, dinosaurs existing, evolution, etc. that seem to be real things and in my mind and conflict with LDS beliefs. A lot of places where the LDS answer is that “we don’t know why these things happen”, but we should believe there is a reason. One of the parts where this messes with me the most is with death (if not obvious from my examples given above). I love my wife and kids more than anything, but what if there is no afterlife? What if I’m one random act (a car crash for example) away from losing a child, and if there is no afterlife then I will never be with them again? If there is no afterlife and I die in a car crash, what happens next to me? Blackness for ever? A natural defense for someone (especially a life-long member) to know that God is real is to think back on the spiritual experiences they have had as proof that God exists. But what if these experiences were figments of our own imagination that we have convinced ourselves of and didn’t actually happen? It is easy for me to see that believing in God / religion results in a better life overall - navigating all of life’s trials and tribulations is 100x easier if we believe that it is all a part of God’s plan; if we believe that all bad things that happen in the world are for a reason and all make sense / work for the best from the perspective of an omniscient God. A few years ago I came to the conclusion that I would not be able to PROVE God was real, but I also wouldn’t be able to prove the opposite. So if I can’t take solace in any spiritual experiences I’ve had to date because I’m worried that they were made up in my head, then since it can’t be PROVEN one way or the other, it’s simply a choice of believing or not. I am trying to choose to believe but it has been difficult to not let these doubts take over. I have tried to pray for confirmation but the thought of spiritual experiences possibly being made up is probably blocking that from happening. On a separate note, I have both lived in accordance with the gospel and have done the opposite, and can say I have a strong testimony that following things like the word of wisdom, our views on family / marriage. etc. will result in a happier life while on this earth. I have not deviated from these beliefs and regardless if I think God is real, I know this is the blueprint for the most happy / successful life on earth. So that is the core of my testimony for now: 1. I am trying to choose to believe that God is real (despite the doubts I have) and that everything the LDS church teaches is true. And 2. That following the gospel way of living will continue to bring the most happiness throughout life. I know this has been a long post and a bit all over the place, so thanks for sticking with me if you have. As I said above, I wish I didn’t have these doubts, but I do, and I’m trying to figure it all out. I would be grateful for any thoughts you have that may help me as I continue to try and work through this.
Calm Posted January 18, 2024 Posted January 18, 2024 (edited) 2 hours ago, Looking for help said: that everything the LDS church teaches is true. Why would you try to believe everything we teach is true? Not even the Church or scriptures claim that. ”Mistakes of men”*** are going to occur anytime humans are involved. Of course it can be easy to recognize there will be mistakes; harder to know what they are…but that is where the Spirit is found imo. ***https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/bofm-title?lang=eng Edited January 18, 2024 by Calm
Calm Posted January 18, 2024 Posted January 18, 2024 (edited) 2 hours ago, Looking for help said: I have not deviated from these beliefs and regardless if I think God is real, I know this is the blueprint for the most happy / successful life on earth. This is a solid, concrete foundation on which to build faith experiences. Quote So if I can’t take solace in any spiritual experiences I’ve had to date because I’m worried that they were made up in my head, then since it can’t be PROVEN one way or the other, it’s simply a choice of believing or not. I am trying to choose to believe but it has been difficult to not let these doubts take over. I have tried to pray for confirmation but the thought of spiritual experiences possibly being made up is probably blocking that from happening. What are the consequences you see if they are made up in your head (in a sense all our experiences are, but I am assuming you mean they correlate somehow with an outside source you are hoping is God)? Sometimes when we can identify what we fear, it turns out not to be as bad as we think…if it isn’t a horrible fate to be wrong in this and you are happier when living in accordance to the Gospel and having faith in God, why not give yourself permission not to worry about your doubts? With our lack of awareness and our limited ability to know very much as individuals, there is no way we are going to be completely right about anything except maybe very basic math like 1 plus 1 and even there we could go off into philosophical debates about if that most basic equation is “true” or “right” (not necessarily the same thing. You will never be more than mostly right in your mortal lifetime and you will be lucky if you are that. It is important to try and limit mistakes to avoid harming ourselves and others, but there is no need to feel guilt over not being able to reach the impossible ideal of being right. And therefore doubts can be viewed as positives without having to feel nervous too much about them….it is a good thing to keep examining your choices, your life to be sure you aren’t harming others because of your own needs and desires. This is charity and love, trying to not only live your best life at the moment that you can manage, but helping others to do the same. Edited January 18, 2024 by Calm
TheTanakas Posted January 18, 2024 Posted January 18, 2024 6 hours ago, Looking for help said: What is life is just completely random and the bad things that happen to us are not part of a plan? What if all the suffering (a child dying, losing jobs, etc.) has no silver lining and are just random happenings that will make our lives worse. I struggle to see how God could allow a lot of things that happen in the world everyday - there are so many places where people suffer and die from hunger, people are regularly beaten and raped. A family with young children loses a mom or a dad. How can that be a part of God’s plan in any way? There are other more scientific questions about the Big Bang theory, dinosaurs existing, evolution, etc. that seem to be real things and in my mind and conflict with LDS beliefs. A lot of places where the LDS answer is that “we don’t know why these things happen”, but we should believe there is a reason. Mosiah 16:3 explains it well. "For they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them; yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall; which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil".
Tacenda Posted January 18, 2024 Posted January 18, 2024 (edited) I totally get where you're at right now and recognize it my own life. I've come around to believing that Jesus was real on earth, but not sure to the extent. I believe he may have performed miracles and think there have been others as well. In my faith journey right now not sure what to believe. I've found out about faith more than anytime in my life. Now I can say I have the faith of a mustard seed. I just look at the world, the thousands of species, our bodies, life that comes from them, the minute insects, the beautiful landscapes, all of that. I too feel like it's unfair that some live in the life of luxury and then you get the people in other countries that suffer from famine, wars, abusive situations etc. And think how does God allow it. But I guess that's what we all are to do in this life is face these situations. And when you lose a loved one you so want to live with them again, and it's so comforting to truly know you will. I have found NDE's help, and even Mediums, my niece is one. I believe some people are given gifts. Just like those that are born with uncanny gifts and talents. Bless you in your journey, and I take it you're younger, I'm 62, and hoping you live each day w/o worry if possible, because getting old happens all too fast. Concentrate on your family and don't worry about the hereafter if at all possible. Easy for me to say right? Thanks for your post, I can tell you took great care in expressing your thoughts. Edited January 18, 2024 by Tacenda
Pyreaux Posted January 18, 2024 Posted January 18, 2024 (edited) 18 hours ago, Looking for help said: Hi. I’m a life-long LDS member outside of a break from the church from ages 14-21. I’m in my 30’s now, sealed in the temple with three young kids, and have remained very active over the last 12+ years since I came back from my “break”. I have struggled over a multi-year period on the question if God is real. The point of this post is not to try and convince anyone that God is not real, I genuinely want to believe that He is and am looking for people to help me work through this issue. The nagging question that has dominated my mind is if men have made up religion over time to help themselves feel better about, and give purpose to, life. Everyone wants to know why they are on the earth, how they got here, where they go after. I understand logically that religion provides answers to these questions and that these answers (if believed faithfully) give us peace and purpose. What I can’t get out of my head is what if all these things were made up specifically to fill those gaps but is not true. I’m not calling anyone a liar or saying anyone is pretending to believe - I absolutely believe the leaders of our church (and most members) truly do believe it all and are not trying to mislead us in any way. I desperately wish that I didn’t have these doubts, but I do. What is life is just completely random and the bad things that happen to us are not part of a plan? What if all the suffering (a child dying, losing jobs, etc.) has no silver lining and are just random happenings that will make our lives worse. I struggle to see how God could allow a lot of things that happen in the world everyday - there are so many places where people suffer and die from hunger, people are regularly beaten and raped. A family with young children loses a mom or a dad. How can that be a part of God’s plan in any way? There are other more scientific questions about the Big Bang theory, dinosaurs existing, evolution, etc. that seem to be real things and in my mind and conflict with LDS beliefs. A lot of places where the LDS answer is that “we don’t know why these things happen”, but we should believe there is a reason. One of the parts where this messes with me the most is with death (if not obvious from my examples given above). I love my wife and kids more than anything, but what if there is no afterlife? What if I’m one random act (a car crash for example) away from losing a child, and if there is no afterlife then I will never be with them again? If there is no afterlife and I die in a car crash, what happens next to me? Blackness for ever? A natural defense for someone (especially a life-long member) to know that God is real is to think back on the spiritual experiences they have had as proof that God exists. But what if these experiences were figments of our own imagination that we have convinced ourselves of and didn’t actually happen? It is easy for me to see that believing in God / religion results in a better life overall - navigating all of life’s trials and tribulations is 100x easier if we believe that it is all a part of God’s plan; if we believe that all bad things that happen in the world are for a reason and all make sense / work for the best from the perspective of an omniscient God. A few years ago I came to the conclusion that I would not be able to PROVE God was real, but I also wouldn’t be able to prove the opposite. So if I can’t take solace in any spiritual experiences I’ve had to date because I’m worried that they were made up in my head, then since it can’t be PROVEN one way or the other, it’s simply a choice of believing or not. I am trying to choose to believe but it has been difficult to not let these doubts take over. I have tried to pray for confirmation but the thought of spiritual experiences possibly being made up is probably blocking that from happening. On a separate note, I have both lived in accordance with the gospel and have done the opposite, and can say I have a strong testimony that following things like the word of wisdom, our views on family / marriage. etc. will result in a happier life while on this earth. I have not deviated from these beliefs and regardless if I think God is real, I know this is the blueprint for the most happy / successful life on earth. So that is the core of my testimony for now: 1. I am trying to choose to believe that God is real (despite the doubts I have) and that everything the LDS church teaches is true. And 2. That following the gospel way of living will continue to bring the most happiness throughout life. I know this has been a long post and a bit all over the place, so thanks for sticking with me if you have. As I said above, I wish I didn’t have these doubts, but I do, and I’m trying to figure it all out. I would be grateful for any thoughts you have that may help me as I continue to try and work through this. My Testimony Raised LDS, I had a parents' testimony, to me there was always a high degree of reasonableness in the teachings, I absorbed the stories like a sponge. It wasn't until I was 13 when I discovered there were folk that had strong yet unreasoned disagreements. Their Biblically based arguments were especially flawed when compared to the church's interpretation. I then absorbed apologetic information which enlightened me about perspective and interpretation. I lightly prayed for revelation from time to time but didn't get any direct response like I expected. I still believed, I was just disappointed in how it's not so easy as simply asking. I've seen miracles and healings and I hear things from people I trust. My parents saved my life twice while being directed by the spirit, a feeling led my mom to save baby me from drowning in a pool. My dad was lead by a feeling to go outside, where I was locked in a van's latched extra seating/storage compartment, he said he only outside that he heard me yelling and I was red faced when he found me, and spooked himself when he looked up reports on that model of vehicle where other kids died in there. A traumatic and disastrous event in my 20s triggered a faith crisis that brought me to my knees in a prayer of desperation. I prayed for as long as it took, I spoke out loud, told every sin I remembered, poured out every pain and desire, periods of silence when I ran out of things to say, but wasn't going to quit praying. When something happened. My anguish was drained from me until it was all gone, I knew without auditable words that everything was going to be okay, it also felt like an invisible and quasi-insubstantial thing the diameter of a finger went partly into my forehead (not sure what that was about). I stop praying to check to see if I was inducing these things, but it didn't stop. I knew there was a God, he answers prayers, he sent the comforter to me, exactly as I've read about. I was so satisfied, that not only did I endure my unchanged situation, it all seemed almost worth the agony to feel such a peace I never knew before and never quite as full thereafter, and to my present dismay, I had no further questions. The one time I felt like I had God's attention as a Latter-day Saint, and I never even thought to asked if the Book of Mormon is true. I figure I'll ask that if I come to a Mormonism related faith crisis, which hasn't happened. I since then I built an academic testimony, I just deep dove into Old Testament studies and Apocryphal works, even foreign religions from Mayan to Mesopotamia. My eyes aways finds the LDS church there, in the ancient past. Truths I cannot unsee. While things like whether Genesis is meant to be understood as completely literal is not so clear to me, neither does the church force me to conform to a specific interpretation. Whether the flood was 6000 years ago in the Bible or 10,000 years ago in the older Epic of Gilgamesh doesn't interest me as much as the fact a Flood is reported all over the world, even in the Mayan Popol Vuh. I have other personal thoughts, but I'll need to come back to share them, and we'll have a "level 1" discussion The God Center of the Brain Intelligent Design (Not Special Creation) The Physics of Immortality The Philosophy of Evil Edited January 19, 2024 by Pyreaux 2
let’s roll Posted January 18, 2024 Posted January 18, 2024 Thanks for sharing both your journey and your desires to grow and for being open to suggestions as you continue on your quest. Based on experiences I have had on that same quest, I offer these thoughts: * The “rest” Christ offers is real, we can live without fear and doubt. Divine rest results from communion with Deity. God will “speak peace to your heart” if you earnestly seek him, with no agenda other than to know Him and align your will with His. My experience has been that the depth of Divine relationships accelerate as I lay aside my agendas and commune with a grateful and tender heart and a willingness to act on promptings. Time spent in this endeavor is exponentially more productive than trying to understand using solely our own wisdom and knowledge. * The inequities of mortality are best understood within the constructs of agency and eternity. God stays His hand so that His children can experience the joys and sorrows that result from the exercise of their agency and have the opportunity to seek His guidance in mitigating sorrows so that the “glory of God might be manifest.” Eternity provides a runway long enough for mercy, grace and love to vanquish the suffering and sorrow experienced by the innocent in mortality. * The eternal life we seeks isn’t an eternity devoid of sorrow and hardship. If we join God in His work, we will organize spirits and worlds, stay our hand as agency is exercised in a way that creates fear, pain and death, while at the same time guiding those who seek us with faith and succoring for eternity the innocent who suffer. Godspeed to you brother. 1
teddyaware Posted January 18, 2024 Posted January 18, 2024 (edited) 10 hours ago, Looking for help said: Hi. I’m a life-long LDS member outside of a break from the church from ages 14-21. I’m in my 30’s now, sealed in the temple with three young kids, and have remained very active over the last 12+ years since I came back from my “break”. I have struggled over a multi-year period on the question if God is real. The point of this post is not to try and convince anyone that God is not real, I genuinely want to believe that He is and am looking for people to help me work through this issue. The nagging question that has dominated my mind is if men have made up religion over time to help themselves feel better about, and give purpose to, life. Everyone wants to know why they are on the earth, how they got here, where they go after. I understand logically that religion provides answers to these questions and that these answers (if believed faithfully) give us peace and purpose. What I can’t get out of my head is what if all these things were made up specifically to fill those gaps but is not true. I’m not calling anyone a liar or saying anyone is pretending to believe - I absolutely believe the leaders of our church (and most members) truly do believe it all and are not trying to mislead us in any way. I desperately wish that I didn’t have these doubts, but I do. What is life is just completely random and the bad things that happen to us are not part of a plan? What if all the suffering (a child dying, losing jobs, etc.) has no silver lining and are just random happenings that will make our lives worse. I struggle to see how God could allow a lot of things that happen in the world everyday - there are so many places where people suffer and die from hunger, people are regularly beaten and raped. A family with young children loses a mom or a dad. How can that be a part of God’s plan in any way? There are other more scientific questions about the Big Bang theory, dinosaurs existing, evolution, etc. that seem to be real things and in my mind and conflict with LDS beliefs. A lot of places where the LDS answer is that “we don’t know why these things happen”, but we should believe there is a reason. One of the parts where this messes with me the most is with death (if not obvious from my examples given above). I love my wife and kids more than anything, but what if there is no afterlife? What if I’m one random act (a car crash for example) away from losing a child, and if there is no afterlife then I will never be with them again? If there is no afterlife and I die in a car crash, what happens next to me? Blackness for ever? A natural defense for someone (especially a life-long member) to know that God is real is to think back on the spiritual experiences they have had as proof that God exists. But what if these experiences were figments of our own imagination that we have convinced ourselves of and didn’t actually happen? It is easy for me to see that believing in God / religion results in a better life overall - navigating all of life’s trials and tribulations is 100x easier if we believe that it is all a part of God’s plan; if we believe that all bad things that happen in the world are for a reason and all make sense / work for the best from the perspective of an omniscient God. A few years ago I came to the conclusion that I would not be able to PROVE God was real, but I also wouldn’t be able to prove the opposite. So if I can’t take solace in any spiritual experiences I’ve had to date because I’m worried that they were made up in my head, then since it can’t be PROVEN one way or the other, it’s simply a choice of believing or not. I am trying to choose to believe but it has been difficult to not let these doubts take over. I have tried to pray for confirmation but the thought of spiritual experiences possibly being made up is probably blocking that from happening. On a separate note, I have both lived in accordance with the gospel and have done the opposite, and can say I have a strong testimony that following things like the word of wisdom, our views on family / marriage. etc. will result in a happier life while on this earth. I have not deviated from these beliefs and regardless if I think God is real, I know this is the blueprint for the most happy / successful life on earth. So that is the core of my testimony for now: 1. I am trying to choose to believe that God is real (despite the doubts I have) and that everything the LDS church teaches is true. And 2. That following the gospel way of living will continue to bring the most happiness throughout life. I know this has been a long post and a bit all over the place, so thanks for sticking with me if you have. As I said above, I wish I didn’t have these doubts, but I do, and I’m trying to figure it all out. I would be grateful for any thoughts you have that may help me as I continue to try and work through this. For what it’s worth, more and more reputable scientists are now admitting that it takes more naivety and credulity to believe existence and life on earth happened by accident than it does to believe in creation by intelligent design. Irreducible complexity is just one of many impressive scientific observations that affirms the creation of the universe and life by accident, without the input of an highly intelligent creative mind, is a virtual statistical impossibility. Irreducible complexity is substantiated by the fact the even the simplest and most basic forms of life are mind bogglingly complex, and imagining that these basic though astonishingly intricate life forms occurred without intelligent design strains the laws of probability to the breaking point. Darwin mistakenly presumed that single cell plants and animals are so rudimentary and simple that, given the right conditions, they could easily emerge from a primordial stew of amino acids; but electron microscopes, and other highly advanced imaging systems, have proven that even the simplest forms of life are amazing miniature universes of wondrous complexity. To start you off on what could develop into a beneficial deep dive into understanding irreducible complexity, and the need for an intelligent designer (our Heavely Father), I offer you the following video. The atheists and scoffers on this board will try to deter you from pursuing a quest to understand irreducible complexity while they point and mock from the windows of the great and spacious building, but I strongly encourage you pay them no heed. Succumbing to their siren song will only serve to leave you in the present predicament you’re hoping to escape. Edited January 18, 2024 by teddyaware
The Nehor Posted January 18, 2024 Posted January 18, 2024 15 minutes ago, teddyaware said: For what it’s worth, more and more reputable scientists are now admitting that it takes more naivety and credulity to believe existence and life on earth happened by accident than it does to believe in creation by intelligent design. Irreducible complexity is just one of many impressive scientific observations that affirms the creation of the universe and life by accident, without the input of an highly intelligent creative mind, is a virtual statistical impossibility. No, more and more reputable scientists are not doing that. Don’t give those doubting their faith houses built upon sand. They don’t last long and the feeling of betrayal when you realize theists have lied to you makes it more likely you will leave later out of sheer frustration at their deception. 1
Pyreaux Posted January 18, 2024 Posted January 18, 2024 (edited) I'm not sure about the growth rate of the field, there are very intelligent and honest scientists, and even atheists, that study intelligent design (as the intelligent designer is not necessarily a god). There are disingenuous people that jump the shark and insist on having proved God in the gaps or that all Genesis is scientifically valid (Special Creation). Take everything with a grain of salt. With the Earth's minimal life function for a single cell, it's still a very complex machine, statistical odds of random biogenesis are astronomical if not impossible. The odds of panspermia (the theory life started somewhere else and seeded on Earth) seem much better. Edited January 18, 2024 by Pyreaux 1
Stargazer Posted January 19, 2024 Posted January 19, 2024 On 1/18/2024 at 5:39 PM, Pyreaux said: I lightly prayed for revelation from time to time but didn't get any direct response like I expected. I wonder if Joseph in the Sacred Grove was lightly praying for revelation? He wanted to ask which of these churches should he join, but did he expect a vision? I don't think so. And what kind of "wisdom" did he expect to get, and in what form? I wish I had been able to ask him what he expected. As a young convert (I was 15) I had totally believed that Joseph Smith had had visions, so I naively expected this was a normal thing for members of the church. One Wednesday evening as the weekly youth meetings were winding down, I decided to repair to the stage of the cultural hall, and in the darkness, somewhat swaddled by the stage's curtains, I got down on my knees and prayed, asking for "a vision." I didn't get one. But what I did get was a still, small voice that said "You don't have enough faith yet." My reaction? Basically, "Oh! OK, then." What on earth was I expecting? "Hey God! Gimme a vision!" I hadn't the vaguest idea what I thought God should give me in the form of a vision. Not only did I not have enough faith, I didn't even know what I wanted to know! At least Joseph had an actual question he needed an answer to. But I got a highly relevant answer, nevertheless. 2
Nemesis Posted January 20, 2024 Posted January 20, 2024 We don’t allow testimonies or deconversion threads please read board rules. Nemesis
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