Significant removal from Come Follow Me 2024

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Pyreaux said:

Like Jews and Samaritans, or the Sunni and Shia. ("See those other guys who mostly look and believe like we do? We hate them.")

Pretty predictable human behaviour. 

[teddyaware]

On 1/6/2024 at 6:24 PM, Tacenda said:

No, not really. I just think it interesting that Hardy said this. Do you remember reading posts about racism in the BoM on this board? It was never mentioned that Nephi could be racist. 

Does the following stinging rebuke of the Nephite people by the prophet Jacob support your belief that the righteous sons of Lehi were racists?

5 Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father—that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them.

6 And now, this commandment they observe to keep; wherefore, because of this observance, in keeping this commandment, the Lord God will not destroy them, but will be merciful unto them; and one day they shall become a blessed people.

7 Behold, their husbands love their wives, and their wives love their husbands; and their husbands and their wives love their children; and their unbelief and their hatred towards you is because of the iniquity of their fathers; wherefore, how much better are you than they, in the sight of your great Creator?

8 O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God.

9 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers. (Jacob 3)

[smac97]

On 1/6/2024 at 8:55 AM, TheTanakas said:

Why did the church make this significant removal from the "Introductory Pages of the Book of Mormon"?  Does this mean the Book of Mormon is no longer the best book to understand the plan of salvation?

This used to be in the 2020 version.

The plan of salvation is Heavenly Father’s plan to help His children become exalted, as He is, and experience the joy He feels (see 2 Nephi 2:25–26).

If you want to understand the plan of salvation, there’s no better book to read than the Book of Mormon.

The 2024 version's pdf is here.

I note that the 2020 version uses

• the phrase "plan of salvation" nine times,
• the phrase "covenant path" once,
• the phrase "Restored Gospel" once,
• "Jesus Christ" 186 times,
• "Jesus" 273 times (including as part of "Jesus Christ"),
• "Christ" about 409 times (including as part of "Jesus Christ"),
• "Savior" 186 times, and
• "Heavenly Father" 29 times.

In contrast, the 2024 version uses

• the phrase "plan of salvation" zero times,
• the phrase "covenant path" 23 times,
• the phrase "Restored Gospel" once,
• "Jesus Christ" 494 times,
• "Jesus" 598 times (including as part of "Jesus Christ"),
• "Christ" about 705 times (including as part of "Jesus Christ"),
• "Savior" 259 times, and
• "Heavenly Father" 120 times.

Not sure any of this means much, except that references to Deity seem to have gone up considerably.

Thanks,

-Smac

[mfbukowski]

47 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I note that the 2020 version uses

• the phrase "plan of salvation" nine times,
• the phrase "covenant path" once,
• the phrase "Restored Gospel" once,
• "Jesus Christ" 186 times,
• "Jesus" 273 times (including as part of "Jesus Christ"),
• "Christ" about 409 times (including as part of "Jesus Christ"),
• "Savior" 186 times, and
• "Heavenly Father" 29 times.

In contrast, the 2024 version uses

• the phrase "plan of salvation" zero times,
• the phrase "covenant path" 23 times,
• the phrase "Restored Gospel" once,
• "Jesus Christ" 494 times,
• "Jesus" 598 times (including as part of "Jesus Christ"),
• "Christ" about 705 times (including as part of "Jesus Christ"),
• "Savior" 259 times, and
• "Heavenly Father" 120 times.

Not sure any of this means much, except that references to Deity seem to have gone up considerably.

Thanks,

-Smac

While you are at it, please show the usage of "Heavenly Father" vs "God".

CLEARLY IMO the usage of "Heavenly Father" is headed toward extinction.

Except in the context of explaining how we are all brothers and sisters, spiritually, it has always been my opinion that "Heavenly Father" sounds rather cultish compared to the simple word "God".

Of course I was not raised Mormon.

I have always been, since my conversion, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and NEVER a "Mormon". 😏

[smac97]

30 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

While you are at it, please show the usage of "Heavenly Father" vs "God".

"God" has about 279 entries in the 2020 version, and about 512 in the 2024 version.

30 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

CLEARLY IMO the usage of "Heavenly Father" is headed toward extinction.

References to "Heavenly Father" in General Conference (searching PDFs of the Liahona) :

• October 2023: 74
• April 2023: 64
• October 2022: 57
• April 2022: 71
• October 2021: 54
• April 2021: 55
• October 2020: 57
• April 2020: 71

Not really seeing a consistently downward trend.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 8, 2024 by smac97

[mfbukowski]

17 minutes ago, smac97 said:

"God" has about 279 entries in the 2020 version, and about 512 in the 2024 version.

References to "Heavenly Father" in General Conference (searching PDFs of the Liahona) :

• October 2023: 74
• April 2023: 64
• October 2022: 57
• April 2022: 71
• October 2021: 54
• April 2021: 55
• October 2020: 57
• April 2020: 71

Not really seeing a consistently downward trend.

Thanks,

-Smac

Thanks for the numbers!

BUT in every case the earlier numbers show a HIGHER usage of "Heavenly Father" than the later numbers, even in the same years, a few months apart, EXCEPT in 2023.

To me, that shows a decline.

Also, I would think that conference talks would be a more conservative source to show such a trend than, say "ordinary LDS speech " but I have no clue how to get those numbers,  or even define that category well.

Perhaps the decline has stabilized or turned around in 2023; we shall see.

But again, thanks for the numbers and the effort! 

But I'm not abandoning the claim yet! 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2024 by mfbukowski

[smac97]

24 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Thanks for the numbers!

BUT in every case the earlier numbers show a HIGHER usage of "Heavenly Father" than the later numbers, even in the same years, a few months apart, EXCEPT in 2023.

To me, that shows a decline.

Starting at 71 references (in April 2020), we then go down (57), down (55), down (54), up (71), down (57), up (64), up (74).

A three-year trend doesn't mean much, but this one seems fairly volatile.

Thanks,

-Smac

[ksfisher]

5 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Starting at 71 references (in April 2020), we then go down (57), down (55), down (54), up (71), down (57), up (64), up (74).

A three-year trend doesn't mean much, but this one seems fairly volatile.

Thanks,

-Smac

How about if Father in Heaven is added to the search?

[InCognitus]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

I note that the 2020 version uses

• the phrase "plan of salvation" nine times,
• the phrase "covenant path" once,
• the phrase "Restored Gospel" once,
• "Jesus Christ" 186 times,
• "Jesus" 273 times (including as part of "Jesus Christ"),
• "Christ" about 409 times (including as part of "Jesus Christ"),
• "Savior" 186 times, and
• "Heavenly Father" 29 times.

In contrast, the 2024 version uses

• the phrase "plan of salvation" zero times,
• the phrase "covenant path" 23 times,
• the phrase "Restored Gospel" once,
• "Jesus Christ" 494 times,
• "Jesus" 598 times (including as part of "Jesus Christ"),
• "Christ" about 705 times (including as part of "Jesus Christ"),
• "Savior" 259 times, and
• "Heavenly Father" 120 times.

Not sure any of this means much, except that references to Deity seem to have gone up considerably.

Thanks,

-Smac

Or, more relevant to this thread topic, using equivalent phrases for "plan of salvation" we get:

The 2020 version uses

• the phrase "the plan of our God":  1 time
• the phrase "plan of redemption":  6 times
• the phrase "plan of happiness":  2 times
• the phrase "Heavenly Father's plan":  4 times
• the phrase "God's plan":  7 times
• the phrase "plan of salvation":  9 times

Total:  29 times

The 2024 version uses

• the phrase "the plan of our God":  2 times
• the phrase "plan of redemption":  5 times
• the phrase "plan of happiness":  4 times
• the phrase "Heavenly Father's plan":  7 times
• the phrase "God's plan":  11 times
• the phrase "plan of salvation":  0 times

Total:  29 times

It works out to be the same when including phrases that refer to the same plan of God.

[TheTanakas]

10 hours ago, Joshua said:

Exaltation will need to be redefined in order to avoid giving the impression that we are overly exclusive in terms of who can truly live with God once our mortal existence has come to an end. This is because more people who are not members of the religion are becoming aware of our teaching, which means that a more inclusive perspective is going to be embraced. 

Right. It would be depressing if people were to be placed in the group of the damned, with no
hope of having eternal increase and living with Heavenly Father for eternity.

[Stormin' Mormon]

10 hours ago, Joshua said:

 This is because more people who are not members of the religion are becoming aware of our teaching, which means that a more inclusive perspective is going to be embraced. 

I don't know how you get more inclusive than the LDS teaching that 99.9% of humanity will inherit a Kingdom of Glory, regardless of when, where, or how they lived. And I only know of a single Christian religion that teaches that Hell is temporary, that Hell has an exit. 

[Calm]

11 hours ago, Joshua said:

of which being the belief that exaltation is only available to followers of our faith who have been baptized.

And everyone else after death which is when exaltation is actually received by everyone, so it matters little imo….there is a reason we baptize everyone and that is not so they can be second tier.

Quote

There is a continuous existence of spiritual damnation that exists outside of the realm of exaltation to our own doctrine. 

I can see a shift from using “damnation” as any separation from God (even for those in the CK that do not receive exaltation…which makes no sense to me) and using it like the rest of Christianity to avoid confusion.  I always thought was a careless choice, not really thinking about the doctrinal implications…as in how can someone be damned while existing in a kingdom of glory.  It seems ungrateful to God for all his blessings and going into a perfectionist mode, which often carries a touch of arrogance (like there is exaltation and then the rest of God’s blessings we can dismiss as less than best and not worthy of attention so we might as well group them all as damnation and be done with it) since most often those teaching it assume they will receive exaltation.  I tend to think of teens who get upset when Mom and Dad don’t shell out the dough for the brand name hoodie when what they bought is great, if missing the logo, the way “damnation” gets taught sometimes.

There are also those who for some reason are certain they are not exaltation material and so why bother at all since they are spiritually damned no matter what they do.

Edited January 10, 2024 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

And everyone else after death which is when exaltation is actually received by everyone, so it matters little imo….there is a reason we baptize everyone and that is not so they can be second tier.

I can see a shift from using “damnation” as any separation from God (even for those in the CK that do not receive exaltation…which makes no sense to me) and using it like the rest of Christianity to avoid confusion.  I always thought was a careless choice, not really thinking about the doctrinal implications…as in how can someone be damned while existing in a kingdom of glory.  It seems ungrateful to God for all his blessings and going into a perfectionist mode, which often carries a touch of arrogance (like there is exaltation and then the rest of God’s blessings we can dismiss as less than best and not worthy of attention so we might as well group them all as damnation and be done with it) since most often those teaching it assume they will receive exaltation.  I tend to think of teens who get upset when Mom and Dad don’t shell out the dough for the brand name hoodie when what they bought is great, if missing the logo, the way “damnation” gets taught sometimes.

There are also those who for some reason are certain they are not exaltation material and so why bother at all since they are spiritually damned no matter what they do.

I don't know why people keep coming up with these distorted interpretations of our beliefs when they have no basis whatsoever.

I just don't get it.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I don't know why people keep coming up with these distorted interpretations of our beliefs when they have no basis whatsoever.

I just don't get it.

Have you heard the phrase “salvation without exaltation is damnation”?

  

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Have you heard the phrase “salvation without exaltation is damnation”?

  

I have no idea what that even COULD mean.

Like maybe playing harp floating on a cloud, is less than exaltation?

But we don't believe that either! It's a Great Mystery.

Wherever we end up, it will be the best possible " place" we can even imagine!

It's weird how this stuff gets started.

We are Universalists, but no one gets that.  It is clear, but apparently they have not even read the scriptures.

The other day, my daughter said that the Final Judgement will be God getting up, standing in front of all humanity, alive dead, and and saying

"SIKE!

EVERYONE GETS IN!" 🤣🤣🤣

I laughed and laughed!

Not exactly doctrinal, but....

 

Edited January 10, 2024 by mfbukowski

[Stormin' Mormon]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

We are Universalists, but no one gets that.  It is clear, but apparently they have not even read the scriptures.

The other day, my daughter said that the Final Judgement will be God getting up, standing in front of all humanity, alive dead, and and saying

"SIKE!

EVERYONE GETS IN!" 🤣🤣🤣

I laughed and laughed!

Not exactly doctrinal, but....

 

I love this excerpt from Brad Wilcox's BYU talk "His Grace is Sufficient." The whole thing is worth a read, but with respect to judgement and division and damnation he says the following:

Quote

 

In the past I had a picture in my mind of what the final judgment would be like, and it went something like this: Jesus standing there with a clipboard and Brad standing on the other side of the room nervously looking at Jesus.

Jesus checks His clipboard and says, “Oh, shoot, Brad. You missed it by two points.”

Brad begs Jesus, “Please, check the essay question one more time! There have to be two points you can squeeze out of that essay.” That’s how I always saw it.

But the older I get, and the more I understand this wonderful plan of redemption, the more I realize that in the final judgment it will not be the unrepentant sinner begging Jesus, “Let me stay.” No, he will probably be saying, “Get me out of here!” Knowing Christ’s character, I believe that if anyone is going to be begging on that occasion, it would probably be Jesus begging the unrepentant sinner, “Please, choose to stay. Please, use my Atonement—not just to be cleansed but to be changed so that you want to stay.”

The miracle of the Atonement is not just that we can go home but that—miraculously—we can feel at home there. 

 

The kingdom we inherit will be the one where we feel most at home.  No kingdom of glory will feel like a punishment to those who inherit it.  

Edited January 10, 2024 by Stormin' Mormon

[InCognitus]

On 1/9/2024 at 6:12 AM, Joshua said:

My expectation is that in the not too distant future, the leadership of the church will make a concerted effort to reduce the amount of time and energy they devote to teaching about exaltation.

I highly doubt that, given that the blessings of the temple are central to the teaching about exaltation.  And the church certainly hasn't stopped building temples.  The entire mission of the church is centered around a restoration of the everlasting covenant.  

On 1/9/2024 at 6:12 AM, Joshua said:

We are not accepted in the larger Christian faith for a number of reasons

Why do you think the church has any interest in being "accepted in the larger Christian faith"?  That has never been the goal.  The only interest the church has in this regard is that people outside the church understand that Jesus Christ and his atonement and following him are central to our teachings.  That makes us "Christians" by the basic definition of the term.  

On 1/9/2024 at 6:12 AM, Joshua said:

the most important of which being the belief that exaltation is only available to followers of our faith who have been baptized. There is a continuous existence of spiritual damnation that exists outside of the realm of exaltation to our own doctrine. Exaltation will need to be redefined in order to avoid giving the impression that we are overly exclusive in terms of who can truly live with God once our mortal existence has come to an end. This is because more people who are not members of the religion are becoming aware of our teaching, which means that a more inclusive perspective is going to be embraced. 

The inclusive or exclusive nature of the CoJCoLDS seems to be hashed out a lot on this board lately for some reason, so what you say above sounds very familiar (you sound familiar).    

But "Christians" in the broader sense are an exclusive group.  I'm often told by Christians outside of my faith that I'm going to hell because I'm a "Mormon".  I either need to be part of their group, or I'm going to hell.  And when Latter-day Saints preach that the gospel has been restored along with the covenants that have been lost, it's an affront to their exclusivity, it rubs them the wrong way, and it offends them.  So I get it. 

But a careful reader of the Bible will find that exaltation is at the heart of the gospel of Jesus Christ.  Those who "overcome" will sit with God in his throne in the very same way that Jesus sits in the throne of his Father (Rev 3:21).  Why don't all Christians believe this?  For the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, this is one of the main reasons we exist.   It is at the core of the restoration. It's not going to go away.

[Tacenda]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I have no idea what that even COULD mean.

Like maybe playing harp floating on a cloud, is less than exaltation?

But we don't believe that either! It's a Great Mystery.

Wherever we end up, it will be the best possible " place" we can even imagine!

It's weird how this stuff gets started.

We are Universalists, but no one gets that.  It is clear, but apparently they have not even read the scriptures.

The other day, my daughter said that the Final Judgement will be God getting up, standing in front of all humanity, alive dead, and and saying

"SIKE!

EVERYONE GETS IN!" 🤣🤣🤣

I laughed and laughed!

Not exactly doctrinal, but....

 

I distinctly remember someone on this board, very much a believer in the church, say that he didn't want to sit on a cloud and play a harp. He wanted to go further...which was exaltation. Or keep evolving but it was so long ago, but made me think. I almost fell for it, thinking everybody is stunted that isn't exalted. 

Soooo....there are these people. 

[mfbukowski]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I distinctly remember someone on this board, very much a believer in the church, say that he didn't want to sit on a cloud and play a harp. He wanted to go further...which was exaltation. Or keep evolving but it was so long ago, but made me think. I almost fell for it, thinking everybody is stunted that isn't exalted. 

Soooo....there are these people. 

But does the word "stunted" apply to those who stop their own growth?

"My education was stunted because I was too busy partying to go to college.  I got in, I just never finished my papers or studied"

Is stunted the word when we do it to ourselves?

[teddyaware]

47 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I distinctly remember someone on this board, very much a believer in the church, say that he didn't want to sit on a cloud and play a harp. He wanted to go further...which was exaltation. Or keep evolving but it was so long ago, but made me think. I almost fell for it, thinking everybody is stunted that isn't exalted. 

Soooo....there are these people. 

Doctrine and Covenants 76 testifies that the inheritors of the telestial kingdom of glory will be ministered to by the Holy Ghost, one of the members of the Godhead, by angels, and by ministering inhabitants sent from the terrestrial kingdom of glory.

In addition, Doctrine and Covenants 76 also tells us that the inhabitants of the terrestrial kingdom of glory will be ministered to by God himself, in the person of Jesus Christ.

The church defines ministering as follows: 

What Is Ministering?

“Ministering is learning of and attending to others’ needs. It is doing the Lord’s work. When we minister, we are representing Jesus Christ and acting as His agents to watch over, lift, and strengthen those around us.”

Therefore, the purpose of the ministering that goes on in the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms is to have authorized agents of Jesus Christ (or in the case of the terrestrial kingdom of glory the ministering is carried out by the Lord Jesus Christ himself) “watch over, lift, and strengthen” those who are receiving said ministration. One cannot be lifted and strengthened spiritually without also improving and progressing spiritually. This can only mean that some kind of spiritual improvement and progression occurs in the two lower kingdoms of post-resurrection glory.

The only other reason I can image why the inhabitants of higher kingdoms of glory would regularly visit the inhabitants lower kingdoms of glory would be to rub their faces in their failure. But since the scriptures make it clear that God is love, and that these ministrations are conducted in order to spiritually lift and strengthen those who are being ministered to, and since gloating and goading are not character traits of the divine nature, the only conclusion we can draw is that God will forever continue to help all of his saved children to grow in the grace and knowledge of God forever.

Edited January 10, 2024 by teddyaware

[pogi]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

Have you heard the phrase “salvation without exaltation is damnation”?

  

Not exactly in that phrasing, but pretty much:

Quote

 

Damnation

• See also Death, Spiritual; Devil; Hell; Sons of Perdition

The state of being stopped in one’s progress and denied access to the presence of God and His glory. Damnation exists in varying degrees. All who do not obtain the fulness of celestial exaltation will to some degree be limited in their progress and privileges, and they will be damned to that extent.

• Woe unto you hypocrites! ye shall receive the greater damnation, Matt. 23:14.

• He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost is in danger of eternal damnation, Mark 3:29.

• They that have done evil will come forth unto the resurrection of damnation, John 5:29 (3 Ne. 26:5).

• He that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, 1 Cor. 11:29 (3 Ne. 18:28–29).

• He that will not repent, be baptized, and endure to the end must be damned, 2 Ne. 9:24 (Mark 16:16; Ether 4:18; D&C 68:9; 84:74).

• The wicked would be more miserable to dwell with God than with the damned souls in hell, Morm. 9:4.

• He that doeth not anything until he is commanded, the same is damned, D&C 58:29.

• He that receives a fulness of the new and everlasting covenant must abide the law, or he shall be damned, D&C 132:6.

 

• Damnation (churchofjesuschrist.org)

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

Not exactly in that phrasing, but pretty much:

I was surprised (pleasantly) to only find it in a LeGrand Richards talk, it appears to have been more popular among the membership and not so much among leaders.  I was also thinking it was something that came from the JFS and BRM era, but Brother Richards said he heard it as a boy in his ward and that was in 1973, so it was quite a bit older than that.  So an idea that has been around for awhile.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

the only conclusion we can draw is that God will forever continue to help all of his saved children to grow in the grace and knowledge of God forever.

Beautifully said.

[Stormin' Mormon]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

I was surprised (pleasantly) to only find it in a LeGrand Richards talk, it appears to have been more popular among the membership and not so much among leaders.  I was also thinking it was something that came from the JFS and BRM era, but Brother Richards said he heard it as a boy in his ward and that was in 1973, so it was quite a bit older than that.  So an idea that has been around for awhile.

The challenge with teaching a doctrine of universal-but-tiered salvation is the "C's get degrees," problem.  

A college student may not see any value in exerting any more effort than is required to get a 70% in his classes.  After all, the degree that he receives at the end of his schooling will be the same degree regardless of whether he studied hard and got all A's, or slacked off and got all C's.  

In the case of the Church's doctrine of tiered salvation, however, there is a significant difference between what the student-of-the-school-of-life will receive at the end of his mortal journey that is highly dependent on the effort he put into learning the necessary material.  The challenge for the Church, then, is communicating this difference without diminishing or exaggerating it.  Sometimes church leaders succeed at this. Sometimes they do not.