Are Latter-day Saint Women Oppressed?

[Calm]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I was mocking the greater spiritual reward of *checks notes*:

“She becomes a god and those secular women become servants to her and the other exalted for all eternity.“

Yep, the desire to rule others is definitely a spiritual reward.

Don’t forget the “meek” and “humble”.  They always look forward to bossing others around.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Calm

[Peacefully]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Don’t forget the “meek” and “humble”.  They always look forward to bossing others around.

It’s scary that some folks are looking forward to having people serve them. There is a major ick factor here for me. 

[teddyaware]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

Don’t forget the “meek” and “humble”.  They always look forward to bossing others around.

As if those humble followers of Christ, whom God is going to exalt, are actually prideful, arrogant tyrants who take sadistic pleasure in depriving others of their agency, in total contradiction to the testimony of the prophets and the scriptures. It appears that in this woke day and age one can’t speak the truth (like, for example, that there are going to be degrees of glory based on faithfulness) without getting ganged up on cultural revolution style and declared an enemy of diversity, equity and inclusion.

Edited October 22, 2023 by teddyaware

[Leaf474]

8 hours ago, Peacefully said:

It’s scary that some folks are looking forward to having people serve them. There is a major ick factor here for me. 

Does Heavenly Mother have servants? If it's a possibility, what would they be doing?

 

Isn't she in the same situation as Heavenly Father here?

"He isn’t served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself gives to all life and breath, and all things."

Acts 17

[Calm]

7 hours ago, teddyaware said:

As if those humble followers of Christ, whom God is going to exalt, are actually prideful, arrogant tyrants who take sadistic pleasure in depriving others of their agency, in total contradiction to the testimony of the prophets and the scriptures. It appears that in this woke day and age one can’t speak the truth (like, for example, that there are going to be degrees of glory based on faithfulness) without getting ganged up on cultural revolution style and declared an enemy of diversity, equity and inclusion.

Not exactly the point that was being made.

This refers back to carbon dioxide’s post:

Quote

Looking the long game, there is no other belief system out that places the eternal destiny of a woman as high the church does.  What other faith system has an equivalent to exaltation in the LDS belief system?   At best women spend their eternity as just angels I guess singing, playing harps and dancing on a pin.   Those who do not believe in an afterlife, well their existence of women ends at death.  That sounds like fun.   A faithful LDS woman becomes a god and has everything.   Find the best examples of women who have achieved great secular accomplishments in the standards of the world.  Their academic degrees, social status,  money, titles, ect are become worthless once they die.  They are less valuable than used toilet a few seconds after death.  However all that sacrifice and patients by the faithful LDS woman rockets her past those other women at death and beyond.   She becomes a god and those secular women become servants to her and the other exalted for all eternity.   Sounds like a great deal to me.   LDS women are not oppressed. They are making some short term worldly sacrifices for a great investment that pays out big time in the end.

First off “women spend their eternity as just angels I guess singing, playing harps and dancing on a pin” is an awful caricature of other Christians’ beliefs.  But that is another issue, so I am just pointing it out and moving on to your comments in support of his claims.

I think you have missed the point of the comments.  It is not those who are exalted by God who are being labeled prideful, they are not the ones showing “a desire to rule others” as their servants in carbon dioxide’s post.  Nehor is clearly implying he rejects this as an actual quality of the exalted. And I am pointing out that those who are meek and humble are likely the kind of people who possess no desire to be superior to others.  And I highly doubt it’s the “faithful LDS woman” who peacefully is referring to as one of the “folks [who] are looking forward to having people serve them”.  We are instead referring to those who appear to be savouring the idea that the exalted faithful get to have servants almost as if this is the primary reason for exaltation, that faithful LDS women do all this work, make all these sacrifices and are patient in all their hardships, not to have eternal families, not to be one with Christ and the Father, but to get to be a god so she can lord it over others….and because in the end this is our reward, logically we LDS women can’t be oppressed (does that mean that any person who is beaten and abused in this lifetime who is exalted in the next was never actually oppressed?  Was Joseph not actually being oppressed when he spent all that time in Liberty Jail being subjected to torments by guards? Perhaps I should make another post on this.)

No one is ganging up on you or carbon for pointing out that there are different degrees of glory.  We are rejecting where it is taken further, we are rejecting carbon dioxide’s comment about secularly successful women being doomed to be servants of faithful LDS women  (and yours apparently since you call it “truth”) since he and you have taken actual revelation and pushed it farther than what we are given and do so with what appears to be at least a smug and therefore somewhat prideful satisfaction that those who do not make the same choices in life that he and you believe are proper for a woman are making sinful choices here and in in the next life, that even if we assume one can’t be secularly successful and faithful at the same time, that secularly successful women are incapable of fully repenting and accepting the fullness of Christ’s Atonement that he offers to all mankind.  Or that because certain women make choices that he and you approve of that they are destined for exaltation when he and you cannot know that there will never be other reasons for which they may not be eligible for exaltation or even choose to refuse the gift of exaltation when offered it.

——-

Side conversation:  It appears that he and you believe that a woman can’t have great secular success and still be a faithful LDS.  What prevents a woman from having secular success and still making the necessary sacrifices and having the necessary patience to become exalted?  There are quite a few successful LDS female entrepreneurs.  Are these women doomed to be ministering servants for eternity?  Do you hold the same reasoning for men?  Are all those secularly successful men in the Church also doomed to be members of the Terrestrial kingdom or ministering angels of the Celestial for eternity?   My Ph.D owning former bishop makes quite a bit of money (and may make tons more once one of his patents gets approved for human use in the US as well as animals, it’s a pity it wasn’t approved yet in the US back in 2020 (2021?) like it was in Canada as it prevented infections that often occur with intubation and likely could have cut down on Covid infections as well, it is an external treatment btw, prevents wound infections and last I heard was practically miraculous in clearing up skin sores of diabetes that were resistant to other treatments) and is honored for his many scientific discoveries that have been helpful to humans.  Quite a few honored, highly secularly successful people get that way because their intent to make life better for others…but apparently because they get recognized for it, their sacrifices to achieve these successes will be rejected by God and they will miss out on exaltation?

—-

Back to the complaint to being ganged up on for telling the “truth”….

There are different ways of presenting truths, including attaching speculation to actual truths as if the speculation then automatically becomes part of that truth.  Emphasizing something that we know little about and even altering what we are told, expanding being servants of God to being servants of those fellow mortals who are exalted as if that were the same thing when what we are told by scripture is not that they will be servants of any who are exalted, but is “[a]nd they shall be servants of the Most High”***.  The speculative expansion is not presenting truth, it is presenting your interpretation of truth.

***https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng&id=112#p112

It is true that 132 says those who do not marry will minister to those that do and that those who do not marry are called “ministering servants”, but it is an interpretation to assume they are servants of those they minister to.  Are we currently servants of those we minister to hear in mortality or are we currently servants of the Most High when we minister in his Name?  I would say we are servants of the Most High who he has delegated to minister to others in his Name, not servants of those we serve in his name.  Are those of us who minister to other ward members ruled over by those we minister to?  Is President Nelson ruled over by me because in his work as a servant of God he ministers to me and many others?  Are women who minister to their children ruled over by their children?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2018/04/ministering-with-the-power-and-authority-of-god?lang=eng

We do not always belong to those we minister to, we belong to God.  If you disagree, please provide documentation.

Combining 76 which says they will be servants of the Most High with 112 which says they will be ministers to those who are worthy of receiving more does not automatically yield they are “servants to her and the other[s] that are exalted for all eternity”.  It may be that or it may be that as servants to the Most High, part of their service for the Most High will be helping those exalted care for God’s family.

Quote

Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132?lang=eng&id=16#p16

Btw, there is no “servants of gods” on the Church’s website or “servants of the exalted”.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Does Heavenly Mother have servants? If it's a possibility, what would they be doing?

 

Isn't she in the same situation as Heavenly Father here?

"He isn’t served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself gives to all life and breath, and all things."

Acts 17

We are servants of the Most High when we minister to/care for our fellow mortals.  I believe that Heavenly Mother is also the Most High since man and woman are commanded to become one in Genesis, but I may be wrong.  If she shares her husband’s position, then I assume we are her servants too even if we currently do not recognize this doctrinally.

I may be wrong though if I am misinterpreting Genesis 2 and other verses that speak of cleaving, etc.  After all, a Bishop’s wife is not the Bishop and we do not accept direction from her.  But maybe this is because total and complete cleaving is impossible while being mortal and therefore a couple cannot fully be of one will and mind.

It will depend on if the perfect oneness of eternal marriage is something a great deal more than the oneness of temple marriage we can achieve in our sealings in mortality.  Obviously the relationship between God the Father and God the Mother (Goddess the Mother?) is a great deal more than anything we can manage in mortality, so what I really mean is if the perfect oneness of eternal marriage truly means a sharing of all things.  If so, logically it seems to me positions and responsibilities are shared in some fashion.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2005/04/three-principles-of-marriage?lang=eng

Quote

While the world seems to emphasize behavioral differences between men and women and leads some to conclude that such differences are insurmountable, prophets have taught that through marriage men and women can become whole. Differences in communication patterns, reasoning, emotions, and even personal preferences may actually benefit a couple. “In the Lord’s plan,” Elder Richard G. Scott of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles taught, “it takes two—a man and a woman—to form a whole.”12 When a man and a woman fully understand that they can be complete only with each other, they learn to appreciate their differences and adjust their behavior as required in the Lord’s plan of happiness. This type of acceptance and adjustment is characteristic of followers of Christ. Oneness or unity is often spoken of in the scriptures as a characteristic of discipleship. For example, the Lord taught Joseph Smith, “Be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine” (D&C 38:27).

On a side note, it is comments like these which make me wonder about certain prophets’ views of polygamy and how they might reconcile eternal polygamy with these teachings assuming they believe it occurs.

Quote

The principle of cleaving requires loving a spouse with “all” our heart. “And, when the Lord says all thy heart,” President Kimball taught, “it allows for no sharing nor dividing nor depriving.”9 Obviously, if our whole heart is “joined” or “glued” to our spouse, we cannot share our treasured feelings with another. In this spirit, President Ezra Taft Benson (1899–1994) warned to “avoid flirtations of any kind.”10 Sharing our hearts, even in the smallest degree, violates the command of loving a spouse with all our heart.

The Lord also emphasized that couples must cleave unto their spouse and “none else.” In an effort to help the Saints understand what “none else” means, President Kimball taught: “The words none else eliminate everyone and everything. The spouse then becomes pre-eminent in the life of the husband or wife and neither social life nor occupational life nor political life nor any other interest nor person nor thing shall ever take precedence over the companion spouse.”11 This concept helps us avoid having multiple “masters.” The Savior warned about having competing interests when He said: “No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other” (Matt. 6:24).

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

On 10/20/2023 at 2:48 PM, carbon dioxide said:

  She becomes a god and those secular women become servants to her and the other exalted for all eternity.   Sounds like a great deal to me.   LDS women are not oppressed. They are making some short term worldly sacrifices for a great investment that pays out big time in the end.

You appear to believe if the reward is exaltation, that the sacrifices made in the here are now shouldn’t be labeled as “oppression”.

Is this correct?  If not, can you clarify how you get from making short term sacrifices for the reward of exaltation means LDS women are not oppressed.

If it is correct, does that mean Joseph did not suffer any oppression when he was persecuted, while jailed in Liberty Jail, and even his eventual death at Carthage Jail because eventually he is to be rewarded with exaltation (if he isn’t already, but he made it sound like it takes much longer than a couple of hundred years to comprehend the principles of exaltation and therefore be able to receive it, so I wonder about that)? If he did not suffer “oppression” in these cases, what would you call it?

[Leaf474]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

We are servants of the Most High when we minister to/care for our fellow mortals.  I believe that Heavenly Mother is also the Most High since man and woman are commanded to become one in Genesis, but I may be wrong.  If she shares her husband’s position, then I assume we are her servants too even if we currently do not recognize this doctrinally.

I may be wrong though if I am misinterpreting Genesis 2 and other verses that speak of cleaving, etc.  After all, a Bishop’s wife is not the Bishop and we do not accept direction from her.  But maybe this is because total and complete cleaving is impossible while being mortal and therefore a couple cannot fully be of one will and mind.

It will depend on if the perfect oneness of eternal marriage is something a great deal more than the oneness of temple marriage we can achieve in our sealings in mortality.  Obviously the relationship between God the Father and God the Mother (Goddess the Mother?) is a great deal more than anything we can manage in mortality, so what I really mean is if the perfect oneness of eternal marriage truly means a sharing of all things.  If so, logically it seems to me positions and responsibilities are shared in some fashion.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2005/04/three-principles-of-marriage?lang=eng

On a side note, it is comments like these which make me wonder about certain prophets’ views of polygamy and how they might reconcile eternal polygamy with these teachings assuming they believe it occurs.

 

Thanks for the input ♥️

 

After exaltation, are we still servants of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother?

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, teddyaware said:

As if those humble followers of Christ, whom God is going to exalt, are actually prideful, arrogant tyrants who take sadistic pleasure in depriving others of their agency, in total contradiction to the testimony of the prophets and the scriptures. It appears that in this woke day and age one can’t speak the truth (like, for example, that there are going to be degrees of glory based on faithfulness) without getting ganged up on cultural revolution style and declared an enemy of diversity, equity and inclusion.

Yes, my pointing out that gloating over ruling over women who have achieved secular success is somehow about a Marxist cultural revolution and is part of the great DEI conspiracy. That is a totally sane thing to believe.

Edited October 22, 2023 by The Nehor

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks for the input ♥️

 

After exaltation, are we still servants of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother?

I believe so.  Maybe others don’t.  He will always be our God though, so it’s just logical to me.  Kings/queens can still be servants of higher Kings and Queens. King of Kings doesn’t just mean the greatest of all kings, it also means ruler over other rulers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Kings

It’s a great blessing in my opinion to be trusted to participate in the work of the Lord.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Calm

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

I believe so.  Maybe others don’t.  He will always be our God though, so it’s just logical to me.  Kings/queens can still be servants of higher Kings and Queens. King of Kings doesn’t just mean the greatest of all kings, it also means ruler over other rulers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Kings

It’s a great blessing in my opinion to be trusted to participate in the work of the Lord.

Your beliefs are how I've always understood it as well.  Even being co-heirs with Christ, I think we will still always be subordinate to Him and the Father (and Mother), due to our familial relationships with Them.

[Leaf474]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I believe so.  Maybe others don’t.  He will always be our God though, so it’s just logical to me.  Kings/queens can still be servants of higher Kings and Queens. King of Kings doesn’t just mean the greatest of all kings, it also means ruler over other rulers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Kings

It’s a great blessing in my opinion to be trusted to participate in the work of the Lord.

Thanks again. And is it possible, or even probable, that Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother by themselves servants of other Gods?

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks again. And is it possible, or even probable, that Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother by themselves servants of other Gods?

It is possible based on what might be viewed as speculation imo.  To say it is probable is guessing, imo.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Mormonism_and_the_nature_of_God/Infinite_regress_of_Gods

[Peacefully]

4 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Does Heavenly Mother have servants? If it's a possibility, what would they be doing?

 

Isn't she in the same situation as Heavenly Father here?

"He isn’t served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself gives to all life and breath, and all things."

Acts 17

I’m not sure I understand your point but please see Calm’s responses to Teddy and you. I only wish I could express myself like she does. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Peacefully

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks again. And is it possible, or even probable, that Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother by themselves servants of other Gods?

My understanding of the Chruch of the Firstborn in the hereafter is that we are all one -- everyone is a servant of everyone else because that is what gods do ("This is my work and my glory..."). We might be doing different things within different relationships and in relation to one another, but it is in the spirit of oneness with Christ and the Father who drew us in, and they in turn with those who drew them in. According to the concepts and the supporting parable of the kingdoms in D&C 88, there seems to be a time and place for everything and in one sense, "God" turns out to be the community or assembly of everyone who is joined with every other eternal family member through their Heavenly Parents. This takes nothing away from the order of the plan of redemption through Christ.

As with the idea that we love Him because he first loved us, we serve Him because he first served us.

Edited October 22, 2023 by CV75

[Nofear]

2 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks again. And is it possible, or even probable, that Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother by themselves servants of other Gods?

While in many ways I am still "subordinate" to my parents, I don't and don't plan on calling my adult children my "servants".

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, Nofear said:

While in many ways I am still "subordinate" to my parents, I don't and don't plan on calling my adult children my "servants".

I would definitely lean towards “messengers” myself. And if there is mundane work to do, then call them by the title of the work if they needed to be identified by something besides their name.  We are all volunteers ultimately, after all.

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Calm

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

Your beliefs are how I've always understood it as well.  Even being co-heirs with Christ, I think we will still always be subordinate to Him and the Father (and Mother), due to our familial relationships with Them.

Until they show weakness. Then you backstab them and move up Jacob’s ladder.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Until they show weakness. Then you backstab them and move up Jacob’s ladder.

Your vision of the afterlife would be so interesting…how does one manage to backstab a perfect being who likely can predict your every move.  It would be a wonder to watch what would have to be a very complicated dance.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Calm

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Your vision of the afterlife would be so interesting…how does one manage to backstab a perfect being who likely can predict your every move.  It would be a wonder to watch what would have to be a very complicated dance.

“Can you turn off your omniscience for the day so I can get you a surprise gift?”

Gets them every time.

[Buckeye]

I’m late to this topic, as I was traveling through Utah and Idaho for a wedding and school visits with my daughters. Stopped in Cody, WY, on the way back and noticed a few yard signs opposing the temple location. But that’s a different topic. 
Here’s what a posted in the DN comments on the article last week. Won’t be a surprise to those who know me on this site. 

The article is well-meaning but sets the bar far too low. We are not merely to refrain from oppressing women. The gospel calls us to seek after all good things (AofF13). Throughout the restoration, we have seen women's access to good things steadily increase. As just a few examples - women now say prayers in sacrament meeting and general conference. They serve as witnesses at baptisms. Their roles in temple, missionary, and ward/stake councils have significantly expanded. 

The moral development of men does not benefit from excluding women. It is not a "fixed pie." As the restoration continues, I look forward to seeing women administer the sacrament, baptize and bless their children, serve on high councils and Q12, and many other good things. Expanding women's roles blesses us all.

[MiserereNobis]

On 10/20/2023 at 2:48 PM, carbon dioxide said:

At best women spend their eternity as just angels I guess singing, playing harps and dancing on a pin.

This is like saying “Mormon women will be eternally pregnant serving their god-husbands as one of his hundreds of wives.” Caricature. It’s sad that this is your view of traditional Christian heaven. 
 

On 10/20/2023 at 2:48 PM, carbon dioxide said:

She becomes a god and those secular women become servants to her and the other exalted for all eternity.

What if they don’t want to be servants? Is free will taken away? Are there whipping posts?

[Buckeye]

I’ve also recently learned that the church has dropped the prohibition on women as stake clerks. I think the restriction is still in place for ward clerks but the progress continues and I hope to see that one fall in the near future. 

Priesthood offices foster good. They bring the priesthood holder and their families closer to Christ. That’s why I strongly support and pray for women’s ordination. Ordaining women will bless them and their families, just as it has done with men. 
 

Priesthood is not a competition. There is no end to the blessing God wishes to bestow. My sons became better off when their sisters serve alongside them as witnesses during youth temple trips. That change in church policy didn’t hinder my boys development, but enhanced it. So too will be the result when the policy is changed to allow their sisters to serve alongside them at the sacrament table, receiving at the veil, on the high council, and in the bishopric. 

[Buckeye]

4 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

This is like saying “Mormon women will be eternally pregnant serving their god-husbands as one of his hundreds of wives.” Caricature. It’s sad that this is your view of traditional Christian heaven. 
 

What if they don’t want to be servants? Is free will taken away? Are there whipping posts?

Mormonism has a long tension in our doctrine regarding the creation of spirit children. I’m in the camp with Joseph that believes spirit children are eternal, and were found and adopted by the Gods. As such, I don’t believe women’s eternity is never-ending pregnancy and nursing. Those are admirable roles, but only mortal ones.

In the other (Brigham / Utah) camp are those who think spirit children are birthed. Polygamy makes a lot more sense in that camp. 

[MiserereNobis]

4 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

In the other (Brigham / Utah) camp are those who think spirit children are birthed. Polygamy makes a lot more sense in that camp.

Just to double-check: is the idea I presented as caricature not actually caricature for Brigham/Utah?