Are Latter-day Saint Women Oppressed?

[Nofear]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I never believed that way and from the way my large extended family talks (including my husband’s side), they haven’t experienced the Church that way either.

Indeed, the explicit teachings of the leadership of the Church is to include the thoughts of others. For example, in ward councils their voice is also not to be limited to just their "domain". As moved (either by inspiration or reason), the Primary President is encouraged to speak on issues involving the EQ, the Sunday School President on missionary work, etc., etc. The importance of female counsel has been echoed several many times by prophets and apostles. But, some would rather focus on a silly* comment by one that asks the women to speak more but not too chatty.

 

* I am open to the idea that there is some degree of generational/cultural sexism in the comment, echoes of influence that can come through when one isn't watching for them explicitly. This is something that we ought to be patient with as we are all thusly colored by our experiences.

[Diamondhands69]

17 hours ago, Raingirl said:

If you discriminate against minorities, isn’t that oppressive? If you discriminate against the disabled, isn’t that oppressive? If you discriminate against the LGBTQ community, isn’t that oppressive? Same with discrimination against one gender or the other.

I would say that some of the differences in gender found in Orthodox Judaism can be oppressive.  I just didn’t personally feel that way.  And in Judaism, if as a female, you want to become a rabbi, you can do that. You won’t be recognized as such by most Orthodox (there is actually a very small number who do), but there’s not an LDS ward in all the world where a woman is going to be called as bishop. 

If the church were populated with only men we can have a church. If it is only women, then the church ceases to exist. Not one woman in the church is “needed” in order for the church to function at its basic level. 
 

id say women are somewhat oppressed but I have heard the same ole sentiments time after time from women when they talk about this. “ I wouldn’t want the priesthood, I’m happy with what I have now.”

Either they see nothing of value in it other than a bunch more useless meetings for some or they are just saying that because an expression of wanting the priesthood by a woman is looked down on by many. 

[Diamondhands69]

Not necessarily oppression but look back at how new Eagle Scouts were treated by a ward or stake vs young women recognition award ( see I don’t even know what it’s called) recipients. One might get a mention at the beginning of sacrament meeting and the other gets a gathering dedicated specifically for them to tell everyone what a great job their mother did earning the Eagle for them. 
 

no one cared about the girls award and seemed like the women didn’t either. 

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Good point.  We have choices.  For those of us have been in the church our entire lives, there comes a point when if we see a problem, we should do something about it- leaving, even,  if we need to.

IMO there are many people who, in all circumstances of marginalization, never realize that there’s anything wrong. Take children, for example. They live daily in (toxic) families and don’t realize anything is off until they get out into the world and recognize that there are alternatives to the way that they were raised. When we grow up in the church and never leave, it’s not always apparent to us that something is off. i’ve been a member of my whole life, but I had parents who would sit at the dinner table after church and examine out loud problems within the church. They were also very devoted and faithful. But I was raised with a critical eye and learned at a pretty young age, not to take everything at face value. I do not think leader ship would approve. In fact, it probably has a lot to do with why my own children have left the church. I look at my friends whose children have all stayed, and I recognize that there is no dissent. There is no discussion of problems. There is no awareness of imbalance etc.  Everyone is fine with how everything is, and would probably be alarmed by this entire conversation. 
 

Now I’m rambling. The point is, I am not a victim and so I probably shouldn’t act like one. I have a choice to stay or go.

Where is that point where when a problem is seen one must do something? Btw did your parents do anything besides talk about the problems?

What about the people who do not see problems and/or were never shown it's okay to acknowledge them, are they victims?

[Raingirl]

1 hour ago, Diamondhands69 said:

If the church were populated with only men we can have a church. If it is only women, then the church ceases to exist. Not one woman in the church is “needed” in order for the church to function at its basic level. 
 

id say women are somewhat oppressed but I have heard the same ole sentiments time after time from women when they talk about this. “ I wouldn’t want the priesthood, I’m happy with what I have now.”

Either they see nothing of value in it other than a bunch more useless meetings for some or they are just saying that because an expression of wanting the priesthood by a woman is looked down on by many. 

Misogynistic man-splaining rears it’s ugly head. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Raingirl

[MustardSeed]

58 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Where is that point where when a problem is seen one must do something? Btw did your parents do anything besides talk about the problems?

What about the people who do not see problems and/or were never shown it's okay to acknowledge them, are they victims?

In order to answer that question on this board, we would have to define what a victim is. 
 

I do believe that people can be victims without recognizing that they are such.

[MustardSeed]

6 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

Misogynistic man-splaining rears its ugly head. 

Unpopular opinion: I don’t know, I think it’s ok for men to share thoughts on the topic of women’s marginalization. I actually appreciate the rare male who will show up in this way on this board.

[Raingirl]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I do. Follow the prophet (or bishop or local leader etc)…who always has been and always will be male…suggests to me an inherent understanding that women are missing something fundamental that is required for adequate skill or (what, exactly??) to receive and relay information from God. 

“Worthy priesthood leader in the home” is an aspired asset.  Many people don’t have that. What does that mean for them? I’m 
 
Practically speaking, I think we all know that women are not missing a thing. I agree that there is more in actual interaction in church socially that shows  openness to ideas and opportunity than otherwise. 

No Priesthood leader in the home means we miss out. So many converts are the only member in the family. 
 

We once had a RS meeting dedicated to a discussion on how can the women support the priesthood. It was ALL about helping one’s husband. Someone pointed out that not all of us are married.  That observation was summarily dismissed, and they went right back to the husband track. 
 

You want a priesthood blessing but no priesthood holders in the family?  Good luck with that!

[Raingirl]

3 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Unpopular opinion: I don’t know, I think it’s ok for men to share thoughts on the topic of women’s marginalization. I actually appreciate the rare male who will show up in this way on this board.

Not when they’re trying to tell us how we feel or how we think. 

[Raingirl]

11 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I can't give rep points,but count this as a hug instead. Those members doing that, don't know what they're missing out on. I'm sure you have a wealth of experience and knowledge to share as a convert, I always loved to hear people's experiences outside of the church. And I hope this changes Raingirl, but understand if you feel like the ship passed already. And they don't deserve you anyway! ❤️

Thank you, Tacenda!

[Meadowchik]

36 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

In order to answer that question on this board, we would have to define what a victim is. 
 

I do believe that people can be victims without recognizing that they are such.

How are you defining it when you use it?

[Leaf474]

3 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I do. Follow the prophet (or bishop or local leader etc)…who always has been and always will be male…suggests to me an inherent understanding that women are missing something fundamental that is required for adequate skill or (what, exactly??) to receive and relay information from God.

I hear that message from outside the church, as well.

 

A related question for anyone: Could a woman have received the Revelation that Joseph Smith did?

 

(To be fair, the Bible contains much the same message - one reason I'm not a strict biblical literalist.)

3 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

“Worthy priesthood leader in the home” is an aspired asset.  Many people don’t have that. What does that mean for them? I’m 
 
Practically speaking, I think we all know that women are not missing a thing. I agree that there is more in actual interaction in church socially that shows  openness to ideas and opportunity than otherwise. 

 

[MustardSeed]

30 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

How are you defining it when you use it?

When I think a victim, I think two things. First I think of someone who is being mis- treated by somebody in a position of power, or somebody who has an unfair advantage. this person may or may not consciously experience pain. An example of this might be an elderly and impaired person who continues to give money to a manipulative drug addicted grandchild.
The other version of victim is somebody who sees themself as powerless when actually, they are not, and somebody who is trapped in their own experience through blaming somebody else when they actually have the ability to do something about the problem themselves. 

[Diamondhands69]

2 hours ago, Raingirl said:

Misogynistic man-splaining rears it’s ugly head. 

What am I mansplaining? Just telling u how the priesthood works. If there is no one to preside ( which is required to be a mp holding man) nothing happens or is authorized. The church does not and has never allowed women to do that. Try and insult me however you want but those are the rules. Go get them changed and I’d be happy to have the women  waste their life away in useless church admin meetings and callings. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[Meadowchik]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

When I think a victim, I think two things. First I think of someone who is being mis- treated by somebody in a position of power, or somebody who has an unfair advantage. this person may or may not consciously experience pain. An example of this might be an elderly and impaired person who continues to give money to a manipulative drug addicted grandchild.
The other version of victim is somebody who sees themself as powerless when actually, they are not, and somebody who is trapped in their own experience through blaming somebody else when they actually have the ability to do something about the problem themselves. 

For the sake of both clarity and health I'd eliminate the latter definition. One can acknowledge that victims need not be powerless to be victims, and they don't have to be trapped in a victimized state to be a victim of a past crime/offense.

I am a victim of being indoctrinated and conditioned from birth to believe I must do certain LDS-approved things to be worthy of true joy and eternal happiness. In such a mindset I made permanently life-altering decisions affecting myself and others including my children. 

Even after leaving the church, the harmful impact still continues, but I am not powerless. I've gone back to school to modernize my degree, I have returned to work after 20 years of absence, and I've started a career. I am learning to make and maintain close relationships without the church as the center of either them or my mindset.

It would not be healthy to think of myself as powerless, but nor would it be healthy to ignore the existence the roadblocks the church created for me. There needs to be good management of it all--personal accountability includes grace for oneself.

 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Meadowchik

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Could a woman have received the Revelation that Joseph Smith did?

Which one?

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

such a mindset I made permanently life-altering decisions affecting myself and others including my children. 

I made a number of life altering decisions based on indoctrination from teachers (secular high school) and family (my dad looked into the number of jobs vs how many applied and assumed it would be too much for me as a girl to compete, as did my school counselor) that had nothing to do with church stuff.  They reassured me that if I followed their advice my life would be less stressful like women needed it to be because they wanted other things like a great social life  where men were more focused on work and only work and could be happy if that was their life; that it would be better for me in the here and now to follow their advice rather then my dreams because they all assumed I could not be truly interested in a career in science—because girls aren’t, look at all the tests proving it!—or devoted enough to spend the time needed to develop the skills nor would I be able to compete against men (even though my grades and test scores in the area were as good or better than the males taking the same classes, including older ones). I greatly regret making those choices. I think I would have done very well as a physicist where I was horrible as an engineer, the compromise position they chose for me, toms more jobs available and I could still have a social life…look at all the guys who would be interested in dating me at work!  I did much better as a psychologist, which was my second dream  

Then I was also indoctrinated by the general culture to believe that doctors knew better than me what was wrong with me (I told them over and over I was not depressed and only exhausted, they never listened, never tested me for anything as they just knew I was depressed. Four doctors (who were great doctors in other ways) over twenty years insisted I take their drugs and implied I should leave if that didn’t satisfy me as there was nothing else they could do for me, wouldn’t make any recommendations of what else I might try. The last one dropped me as a patient without telling me when I sought a second opinion due to me knowing the drug she insisted on prescribing was a disaster (which it was), the same doctor who had been treating me with no issues for ten years until I brought in medical information I had found on my disorder I diagnosed (and which she had to agree I was right about once she went confirmed it), which she didn’t even glance at when I gave it to her; instead she just handed it back.  Obviously she was not the least bit interested in changing roles to her being the listener and me being the one teaching the medical info.  She shut me down and kicked me out faster than any male leader in the Church did when I questioned their position  

The drugs my doctors gave me with a “it’s this or nothing” ramped up my disorder to severe years before nature would have, if ever. My decision to accept their authority and not question them was a life crushing decision that ended up with me struggling from my later 20s to having an extreme genetic disorder in my late 40s, at least 3 decades earlier than it need have been.  The rest of my siblings are mostly better off because they didn’t trust that doctors were the miracle workers I was hoping they would be, that they were telling me they were (one brother got screwed over because he actually had depression and they ignored the sleep disturbance contribution).  My children and grandchildren’s life have been drastically altered by my becoming mostly housebound, unable to drive or even ride a bike and limited socially and in other ways, unable to travel with them, go to their performances, help them with homework and making costumes for Halloween (I was very good at that).  This meant my daughter with severe social anxiety disorder became completely isolated and she has not even completed high school because I couldn’t give her social support by taking her out so she didn’t lose the ability to be around people, find a specialized school that she could handle, or do fun things with her cousins, the only people she loved interacting with and coins interact with here in Utah, instead she ended up being a stranger to them.

I am going into this detail to show these indoctrinated by the secular world choices did not result in a trivial course change in my life, I am not playing up the life altering effects the secular indoctrination set me up for rhetorical effect.

So given these events and the results….

Have I been victimized, abused, subjugated, and exploited by the secular Californian school system and traditional medical establishment, doctors in California, Utah, Kansas and Canada (it was two LDS doctors, btw, who finally listened to me and treated me as an equal partner in our work, including looking up medications I suggest as better options and then prescribing them for me and running the tests I am asking for) because I believed the establishment’s indoctrination and had no power to resist exposure to their ideas until I was much older, the damage already done?  I was forced to go to school in ways I was never forced to go to church by the Church.  I was given no other option of medical treatment by my doctors when I rejected their treatments since I couldn’t afford the crazy prices of alternative doctors, many of whom were scammers. 
 

To me, if I use your paradigm that making life altering choices based on indoctrination  leads to victimhood, exploitation, abuse, etc., my observation would have to be that my life has been harmed in much more dramatic ways by secular indoctrination than religious. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Calm

[Meadowchik]

44 minutes ago, Calm said:

I made a number of life altering decisions based on indoctrination from teachers (secular high school) and family (my dad looked into the number of jobs vs how many applied and assumed it would be too much for me as a girl to compete, as did my school counselor) that had nothing to do with church stuff.  They reassured me that if I followed their advice my life would be less stressful like women needed it to be because they wanted other things like a great social life  where men were more focused on work and only work and could be happy if that was their life; that it would be better for me in the here and now to follow their advice rather then my dreams because they all assumed I could not be truly interested in a career in science—because girls aren’t, look at all the tests proving it!—or devoted enough to spend the time needed to develop the skills nor would I be able to compete against men (even though my grades and test scores in the area were as good or better than the males taking the same classes, including older ones). I greatly regret making those choices. I think I would have done very well as a physicist where I was horrible as an engineer, the compromise position they chose for me, toms more jobs available and I could still have a social life…look at all the guys who would be interested in dating me at work!  I did much better as a psychologist, which was my second dream  

Then I was also indoctrinated by the general culture to believe that doctors knew better than me what was wrong with me and what I should do about it and this ended up with an extreme genetic disorder in my late 40s, at least 3 decades earlier than it need have been (my sisters have very little in the older, childless case and mild in the younger with children case).  My children’s and grandchildren’s life have been drastically alter by my becoming housebound and limited socially and in other ways, unable to travel with them, go to their performances, help them with homework and making costumes for Halloween (I was very good at that).

Have I been victimized, abused, subjugated , and exploited by the school system and medical establishment because I believed their indoctrination and had no power to resist exposure to their ideas until I was much older, the damage already done?  I was forced to go to school in ways I was never forced to go to church by the Church.  I was given no other option of medical treatment by my doctors when I rejected their treatments since I couldn’t afford the crazy prices of alternative doctors, many of whom were scammers. 

Schools can indeed indoctrinate and condition children. The church purposely does indoctrinate and condition children to believe there is one covenant path, etc...

[carbon dioxide]

Looking the long game, there is no other belief system out that places the eternal destiny of a woman as high the church does.  What other faith system has an equivalent to exaltation in the LDS belief system?   At best women spend their eternity as just angels I guess singing, playing harps and dancing on a pin.   Those who do not believe in an afterlife, well their existence of women ends at death.  That sounds like fun.   A faithful LDS woman becomes a god and has everything.   Find the best examples of women who have achieved great secular accomplishments in the standards of the world.  Their academic degrees, social status,  money, titles, ect are become worthless once they die.  They are less valuable than used toilet a few seconds after death.  However all that sacrifice and patients by the faithful LDS woman rockets her past those other women at death and beyond.   She becomes a god and those secular women become servants to her and the other exalted for all eternity.   Sounds like a great deal to me.   LDS women are not oppressed. They are making some short term worldly sacrifices for a great investment that pays out big time in the end.

Edited October 20, 2023 by carbon dioxide

[teddyaware]

29 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Schools can indeed indoctrinate and condition children. The church purposely does indoctrinate and condition children to believe there is one covenant path, etc...

If it turns out that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day actually is the one and only true of Christ on earth, would you still consider to be wrong to teach children that it is the true church?

Edited October 20, 2023 by teddyaware

[Meadowchik]

32 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

If it turns out that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day actually is the one and only true of Christ on earth, would you still consider to be wrong to teach children that it is the true church?

If it turns out that God is wicked, would you still obey God?

 

[teddyaware]

6 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

If it turns out that God is wicked, would you still obey God?

 

I now understand why you’re so bitter.  

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Schools can indeed indoctrinate and condition children. The church purposely does indoctrinate and condition children to believe there is one covenant path, etc...

So are we victims, exploited, subjugated, abused, etc by schools and all cultures that indoctrinate, especially respect and security in those that are seen as authorities in your view?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

What other faith system has an equivalent to exaltation in the LDS belief system?   At best women spend their eternity as just angels I guess singing, playing harps and dancing on a pin.  

Are you speaking about Christian faith only here?

[MustardSeed]

I think I’ll be stepping away from this.  I do feel strongly about this but I’ve shared enough.  Have a good weekend all-