Tim Ballard

[Calm]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Is he still a member?

Last I heard.  I think he will hold on tightly to being a member as it seemed important to him in the book even though not only did he seem to gleefully kill off a lot of apostles (unnamed of course) in his disaster, but he created his own priesthood adjacent line of authority/presidency….he may not be prophet of the Church as that would be obviously ego driven wish fulfillment, he’s only higher up than the prophet because he is Christ’s right hand man with his office next door’s to Christ in the temple (such a businessman’s view of church administration, so corporate; I don’t understand how anyone is not eager for the Second Coming at the very least so we can lose the suit and tie and constant meetings with agendas).

And unlike the other hedge prophets I have heard of, he was actually a bishop (still trying to figure that one out) and my guess is that gives him some standing the others don’t have among the faithful members who get pulled into this.

Edited May 16, 2024 by Calm

[morgan.deane]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

If you read the letter, it comes across imo as the minimum he can retract in order to avoid excommunication. There was no offer to help those who allegedly misunderstood him get a better understanding. Instead it reads to me “poor me, not my problem”.

Given there was at least one conference he attended with Pontius iirc where these ideas were shared and not corrected iirc (someone taped it iirc, it has been eons since I looked into it), given there was no hint that Pontius got it wrong from him publicly before he got called out, iirc and given it has gone on for a decade since his letter with plenty still accepting it as TRUTH with no effort to correct beyond the letter, and given he is currently going to conferences and being treated there as a prophet, including handing out blessings (at least to those prominent in the movement like Tim Ballard) with no sign he is correcting any claims plus the rumors he’s just adding to the fire rather than suppressing them (such as telling Ballard he is going to be Pres of the US), I think his letter was him making sure he wasn’t excommunicated and nothing else and would not be the least surprised if the claim dumping it on a dead man and his poor widow was a lie (if the book was a ‘dramatization’ of reality, why wouldn’t he work beyond the minimum to ensure everyone understood it was embellishments instead of playing off the celebrity status he gets from that ‘misunderstanding’?)

His visions had some very explicit details that did not read at all like symbolic dreams. Pontius would have had to completely rewrite his comments to get it so wrong and that is not what the letter describes.  I read the book, it was very poorly written; I am flabbergasted that it is so popular for so many reasons.  One vision has him having an office in the temple right next to his good buddy Jesus, Harrison being top man in the 3 person group gathering the people of Zion from around the world (through the use of portals), outside of the authority of the President of the Church.  Harrison could have gone online with his version of his visions instead of allowing the Pontius’ version to stand in corrected.

BTW, The part of the story that was not visions, his description of the medical practices was closer to TV dramas rather than reality.  It is highly unlikely he actually went through the experience of his details are so off (for example, the medical staff dump him in his doctor’s office and leave him completely unattended right after he almost dies, such behavior would lead to a massive law suit) where he promptly has visions of his doctor committing adultery with a nurse like every medical soap in existence portrays, but with the addition of the furniture moaning about their sad lot of having to endure being in the pit of sin…it comes across as quite voyeuristic.  Again, we’d never heard of any correction outside the letter with no details on what Pontius got wrong. 

I'm a real Mystery Science Theater 3000 fan...because his book sounds so bad now I kind of want to read it. I don't want to fund his empire so maybe I can find a copy at DI or something. 

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Last I heard.  I think he will hold on tightly to being a member as it seemed important to him in the book even though not only did he seem to gleefully kill off a lot of apostles (unnamed of course) in his disaster, but he created his own priesthood adjacent line of authority….he may not be prophet of the Church as that would be obviously ego driven wish fulfillment, he’s only higher up than the prophet because he is Christ’s right hand man with his office next door’s to Christ in the temple (such a businessman’s view of church administration, so corporate; I don’t understand how anyone is not eager for the Second Coming at the very least so we can lose the suit and tie and constant meetings with agendas).

And unlike the other hedge prophets I have heard of, he was actually a bishop (still trying to figure that one out) and my guess is that gives him some standing the others don’t have among the faithful members who get pulled into this.

It's interesting how all of these "end times prophets" always end up being Christ's right hand man.  They can't all be though.

[bluebell]

Just now, morgan.deane said:

I'm a real Mystery Science Theater 3000 fan...because his book sounds so bad now I kind of want to read it. I don't want to fund his empire so maybe I can find a copy at DI or something. 

I've never read it, but from what I've heard from others there is a part where some furniture talk to him.  That's right up MST 3000's alley.   

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, morgan.deane said:

so maybe I can find a copy at DI or something. 

Hopefully they have been instructed to reject them, but I have no doubt used bookstores would have it.

checked:  one had 25 copies for 9 or 10$.

Edited May 16, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

from what I've heard from others there is a part where some furniture talk to him

That is right at the beginning when he gets left on his own after practically dying in the doctor’s office.  Iirc, it’s the furniture that once was either animal (the leather couch and chairs) or vegetable (wooden desk) that have spirits communicating with him and which are obsessed with having to enduring playing a part in adultery….I think he was trying to connect to scripture that has the earth groaning under the weight of sin.

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, morgan.deane said:

I'm a real Mystery Science Theater 3000 fan...because his book sounds so bad now I kind of want to read it. I don't want to fund his empire so maybe I can find a copy at DI or something. 

I was laughing through quite a bit of it, jaw dropping in others.  Lot of violence and death he just casually passes over on his way to his grandiose callings.  He is getting up there now, I wonder if he has allowed the possibility now that it’s going to be in his next life (either after death or actual mortal life if he is a multiple mortal probation believer as a lot of them are.  I didn’t think he actually believed it before (thought he was just fantasizing with Pontius, but Pontius thought it was the real thing) which is one reason I thought he backed down so easily and was doing it ‘incognito’ as Spencer, but then I found out he was behind the scenes meeting with the others in the spinoff group, so now I wonder if he always believed even if his ideas were contradictory at times so it sounds like it wasn’t thought through much or if he allowed himself to get caught up in the hero worship and talked himself into believing.  Also he claims that Pontius misunderstood his ideas and that is all the crazy stuff, but how do you misunderstand someone that badly?

Edited May 17, 2024 by Calm

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

I was laughing through quite a bit of it, jaw dropping in others.  Lot of violence and death he just casually passes over on his way to his grandiose callings.  He is getting up there now, I wonder if he has allowed the possibility now that it’s going to be in his next life (either after death or actual mortal life if he is a multiple mortal probation believer as a lot of them are.  I didn’t think he actually believed it before, which is one reason I thought he backed down so easily and was doing it ‘incognito’ as Spencer, but then I found out he was behind the scenes meeting with the others in the spinoff group, so now I wonder if he always believed even if his ideas were contradictory at time or if he allowed himself to get caught up in the hero worship and talked himself into believing.  Also he claims that Pontius misunderstood his ideas and that is all the crazy stuff, but how do you misunderstand someone that badly?

And why wouldn't you use your platform to correct the misunderstandings?

[Calm]

58 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It's interesting how all of these "end times prophets" always end up being Christ's right hand man.  They can't all be though.

I was thinking Rowe might be a true believer as she started out just an observer in her visions even though it seemed like Daybell was directing her visions from behind the curtain (she discussed the process of him telling her a chapter in her book needing more material and her then recalling there just happened to be a lot more to her visions on that particular subject) but then as time went on her spirit guides became more notable and she started getting prestige assignments until she gets assassinated and resurrected or translated after 3 days and leads the warriors of God to victory and rules as one of the Davidic kings or something along those lines.  She was all over the place last time I checked her out.  It is long distance armchair psychology, but I truly think she is dealing with mental illness.

Edited May 17, 2024 by Calm

[ZealouslyStriving]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

Hopefully they have been instructed to reject them, but I have no doubt used bookstores would have it.

checked:  one had 25 copies for 9 or 10$.

Stuff slips by at DI, as you have members and non-members sorting that don't know what to look out for. I found a couple Ogden Kraut books that had slipped onto the sales floor at the Portland location.

[Anonymous Mormon]

I was looking up more about Thom Harrison and Tim Ballard to see what actual connection I could find that was more than hearsay. I found this in one of the court documents:

Quote

67. Ballard claims to be blessed by Thom Harrison, both while Thom was alive, and through Spear President Ken Krogue, claiming to anoint Ballard as a chosen one, not subject to the jurisdiction of government and church authorities. See Exhibits N and O.

https://ewscripps.brightspotcdn.com/51/05/6beb18d74504af701f9e5e578d00/0d5a9092199d4d4ba8d4bb7059ba307b.pdf 

 

But I couldn't find way to read these exhibits (but I did find a copy on an ex-mo site for one that I don't know if it's accurate since it has strange formatting).

Does anyone with better legal or research skills than me know how to get a link to Exhibit N or O that is referred to there?

[ZealouslyStriving]

I can claim to be a one-eyed, one-horned flying purple spaghetti monster in an itsy-bitsy, teeny-weeny yellow polka-dot modest one-piece bathing suit- but that doesn't make it true.

[Anonymous Mormon]

49 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I can claim to be a one-eyed, one-horned flying purple spaghetti monster in an itsy-bitsy, teeny-weeny yellow polka-dot modest one-piece bathing suit- but that doesn't make it true.

If you are responding to the Court Document saying, "67. Ballard claims to be blessed by Thom Harrison..." then I agree that just because someone makes a claim, it doesn't mean it's true.

As I mentioned, I did find on Reddit a document that was said to be one of these exhibits and it was a blessing from Thom Harrison to Tim Ballard, but it didn't back up the claim that "claiming to anoint Ballard as a chosen one, not subject to the jurisdiction of government and church authorities."

Additionally, this same Court Document has other claims that have been proven either inaccurate or completely lacking in proof.

That's why I was hoping someone could find the exhibits themselves, to see if this claim actually stands up to scrutiny.

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

If you are responding to the Court Document saying, "67. Ballard claims to be blessed by Thom Harrison..." then I agree that just because someone makes a claim, it doesn't mean it's true.

As I mentioned, I did find on Reddit a document that was said to be one of these exhibits and it was a blessing from Thom Harrison to Tim Ballard, but it didn't back up the claim that "claiming to anoint Ballard as a chosen one, not subject to the jurisdiction of government and church authorities."

Additionally, this same Court Document has other claims that have been proven either inaccurate or completely lacking in proof.

That's why I was hoping someone could find the exhibits themselves, to see if this claim actually stands up to scrutiny.

I will do some research, I actually know the attorney that worked on the case involving Ballard, but he isn't a very close acquaintance. But believe this information should now be public knowledge. Maybe @smac97 will be able to help. 

Edited May 18, 2024 by Tacenda

[Calm]

On 5/16/2024 at 6:09 PM, bluebell said:

And why wouldn't you use your platform to correct the misunderstandings?

This was always my problem with him, his weird contradictory behavior (I give him high marks for giving all the proceeds to Pontius’ widow (though I wonder if he would have been as generous if he knew what kind of money it would make, it’s the rare book in the Mormon market ….his description of his coming calling/life seemed like the fantasy of a man who was too fearful of the consequences. Here is supposed the guy who is out gathering the Ten Tribes, proclaiming the gospel around the world and yet he won’t risk putting his name to his teachings when they got published.

His supporters go on about the risk of losing callings and even excommunication and that is why the anonymity, but this is the guy who shares the offices in the Temple with Christ as well as being buddy/buddy with an apostle (one who weeps for Spencer when praying for him.  Plus Spencer goes into detail about his suffering and pain and how all of that was part of the process that led to his great calling.  And he knows he will be around and going to the temple when the earthquake happens.  Given all of the above, why hide out?  Doesn’t he have faith in his own visions?  If he has doubts himself, why would I take him seriously?

Surely Christ would protect him like Samuel the Lamanite was protected till his mission was completed.  Surely his alleged apostle friend would have spoken up for him.  

And last, look at the suffering Joseph, Lehi, Abinadi and others were willing to endure when they were instructed to share the “good news”.  Thom Harrison hid behind a false name and even a curtain.  Not really what one expects in a man giving his calling as prophet seriously.

It’s not that long until the deadline of 2030 hits.  @bdouglas, do you remember your promise to get your cousin to revisit the board?  I wonder what manofthecloth thinks about Visions these days.

For those who wanted scripture contradictions and other issues from the book, there is a 2014 thread where we got into it some, Scott Lloyd provided a list starting here:  https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/63730-visions-of-glory-nonsense-or-legit/?do=findComment&comment=1209396903

Juliann posted a number of quotes from the book including this one from Spencer:

Quote

p 146-47    ". . .I knew I had been shown actual events in my future, I knew it nothing doubting, and I rejoiced.  The visions I had seen years earlier were to guide me to this moment.  The visions I saw now completed my education and gave me all of the missing pieces. 

Pontius’ widow apparently responded to the claim that it went to press without him being able to check the final draft and that his corrections weren’t in it by stating he had reviewed it (this is from bdouglass who does not give a reference).

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/63730-visions-of-glory-nonsense-or-legit/?do=findComment&comment=1209397987

So the interview by Pontius has Pontius saying things about the book and Spencer is saying ‘yes, that’s right’ in almost every time and minor corrections at most, so claiming that Pontius added stuff to the book or got stuff wrong contrary to Harrison’s wishes strikes me as not in evidence during that interview.  And there were 500+ people in the audience who apparently were quite familiar already with what was in the book.  I should have checked back then when it would have been easier, but if much of the material of the book was already shared, then any excuse Harrison was unaware of the changes and so wasn’t responsible for the false doctrine, etc seems unlikely.

 

Edited May 20, 2024 by Calm

[bdouglas]

On 5/19/2024 at 6:42 PM, Calm said:

This was always my problem with him, his weird contradictory behavior (I give him high marks for giving all the proceeds to Pontius’ widow (though I wonder if he would have been as generous if he knew what kind of money it would make, it’s the rare book in the Mormon market ….his description of his coming calling/life seemed like the fantasy of a man who was too fearful of the consequences. Here is supposed the guy who is out gathering the Ten Tribes, proclaiming the gospel around the world and yet he won’t risk putting his name to his teachings when they got published.

His supporters go on about the risk of losing callings and even excommunication and that is why the anonymity, but this is the guy who shares the offices in the Temple with Christ as well as being buddy/buddy with an apostle (one who weeps for Spencer when praying for him.  Plus Spencer goes into detail about his suffering and pain and how all of that was part of the process that led to his great calling.  And he knows he will be around and going to the temple when the earthquake happens.  Given all of the above, why hide out?  Doesn’t he have faith in his own visions?  If he has doubts himself, why would I take him seriously?

Surely Christ would protect him like Samuel the Lamanite was protected till his mission was completed.  Surely his alleged apostle friend would have spoken up for him.  

And last, look at the suffering Joseph, Lehi, Abinadi and others were willing to endure when they were instructed to share the “good news”.  Thom Harrison hid behind a false name and even a curtain.  Not really what one expects in a man giving his calling as prophet seriously.

It’s not that long until the deadline of 2030 hits.  @bdouglas, do you remember your promise to get your cousin to revisit the board?  I wonder what manofthecloth thinks about Visions these days.

For those who wanted scripture contradictions and other issues from the book, there is a 2014 thread where we got into it some, Scott Lloyd provided a list starting here:  https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/63730-visions-of-glory-nonsense-or-legit/?do=findComment&comment=1209396903

Juliann posted a number of quotes from the book including this one from Spencer:

Pontius’ widow apparently responded to the claim that it went to press without him being able to check the final draft and that his corrections weren’t in it by stating he had reviewed it (this is from bdouglass who does not give a reference).

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/63730-visions-of-glory-nonsense-or-legit/?do=findComment&comment=1209397987

So the interview by Pontius has Pontius saying things about the book and Spencer is saying ‘yes, that’s right’ in almost every time and minor corrections at most, so claiming that Pontius added stuff to the book or got stuff wrong contrary to Harrison’s wishes strikes me as not in evidence during that interview.  And there were 500+ people in the audience who apparently were quite familiar already with what was in the book.  I should have checked back then when it would have been easier, but if much of the material of the book was already shared, then any excuse Harrison was unaware of the changes and so wasn’t responsible for the false doctrine, etc seems unlikely.

 

I doubt we'll hear from manofthecloth (I think he is fundamentalist now), but as for me, my opinion of the book VOG has remained the same. I regarded it then as a very silly book, and I still do now, only back then I could not have foreseen all the damage it would bring about (some of this damage has impacted my extended family ... can't go into details).

Edited May 21, 2024 by bdouglas

[The Nehor]

On 5/16/2024 at 6:43 PM, morgan.deane said:

I'm a real Mystery Science Theater 3000 fan...because his book sounds so bad now I kind of want to read it. I don't want to fund his empire so maybe I can find a copy at DI or something. 

There are podcasts and youtubers and the like that do dramatic readings of horrible books. Some are delightful.

[ZealouslyStriving]

Judge dismisses lawsuit against Tim Ballard https://www.deseret.com/utah/2024/07/02/tim-ballard-lawsuit-update/

 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Judge dismisses lawsuit against Tim Ballard https://www.deseret.com/utah/2024/07/02/tim-ballard-lawsuit-update/

 

Interesting.

Not the main ones though that accuse Ballard of personal sexual misconduct (and fraud iirc).  This was a new one to me. 

Quote

In the suit, Righter alleged she sustained an orbital blow fracture during an OUR cosplay training. She had claimed Ballard was present at the training, but refused to call emergency services.

Righter had alleged she was sexually touched under false pretenses by another man named Matthew Cooper. She alleged Ballard “attempted to goad Cooper to be more sexually aggressive” with her.

The judge found a liability agreement that Righter signed barred her from being able to file the suit…

The court ruled that the allegations made about the sexual touching under false pretenses “do not rise to the level of criminal conduct.”

The order dismissing the lawsuit said the suit filed by Righter “does not specify if or how OUR had a meeting of the minds with Ballard, Cooper or others regarding using the ruse as a ploy to further sexual misconduct or sexual assault or battery.” The court ruled that Righter has not pled facts to show this meeting occurred as it’s required for a claim of civil conspiracy.

 

Edited July 3, 2024 by Calm

[The Nehor]

On 7/3/2024 at 9:13 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Judge dismisses lawsuit against Tim Ballard https://www.deseret.com/utah/2024/07/02/tim-ballard-lawsuit-update/

 

That specific case was pretty much doomed from the start.

[juliann]

On 5/16/2024 at 5:43 PM, morgan.deane said:

I'm a real Mystery Science Theater 3000 fan...because his book sounds so bad now I kind of want to read it. I don't want to fund his empire so maybe I can find a copy at DI or something. 

The worst part, if that is possible, was the racism and sexism. After I heard about this book in testimony meeting, I went through it with a fine tooth comb. He contradicts himself repeatedly. Like claiming he was color blind but then describing the vivid color of jewels a Native American tribe living under the ice had. His description of his birth was hilarious. I didn't do rigorous research but a quick google didn't have Primary Children's Hospital doing what he claimed at that time period. He considered Polynesians (forget what Island) cannibals and devilish. There is an icky part where he spends too much time describing a young man's sinful sexual desires. He seems a little too interested. He manages to shut the door before the Eastern Europeans could make it to the US, as if God would set an arbitrary time line to travel across the world. It is Japanese who are inhabiting America. He manages to get around the country in an abandoned magic vehicle he finds. He fuels it with used french fry oil he barters for as he travels north to find the Native American lost tribe (even though he apparently would have nothing to barter)....who hand over their records to him. Women are always side kicks and he offs his wife in one passing sentence. My fav was that despite all the detail he provides, he just couldn't find any dates in his time travels. There were some convenient similarities to other after death books. 

It was awful to the point of comedy. It's been many years since I reviewed the book so I may be messing up some details. 

[Calm]

53 minutes ago, juliann said:

It's been many years since I reviewed the book so I may be messing up some details. 

I think it was North Koreans (Communists) rather than Japanese, but it may be nameless Asians (he can’t read the writing in their truckers to identify them) so he doesn’t appear racist, lol.  Or that may be from Julie Rowe who took his stuff and ran with it

Just came across this free chapter online…

https://www.cedarfort.com/products/visions-of-glory-plague-chapter-free

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I think it was North Koreans (Communists) rather than Japanese, but it may be nameless Asians (he can’t read the writing in their truckers to identify them) so he doesn’t appear racist, lol.  Or that may be from Julie Rowe who took his stuff and ran with it

Just came across this free chapter online…

https://www.cedarfort.com/products/visions-of-glory-plague-chapter-free

This review of the book made me giggle:

“Fantastic! I needed a good excuse to murder my family and I found great inspiration here.”

[MustardSeed]

https://www.abc4.com/news/wasatch-front/ballard-dna-court/
 

something something something, found something Ballard’s dna on someones skirt something something. 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

https://www.abc4.com/news/wasatch-front/ballard-dna-court/
 

something something something, found something Ballard’s dna on someones skirt something something. 

Very informative, thank you, lol

Quote

Celeste and Michael Borys are now seeking to use the official test results in court. 

The motion filed on Monday, July 8, called the DNA results a “key piece of evidence” that should be brought to court before the court rules on possibly terminating the case.

The motion claims the case “needs to be evaluated within the context of a man repeatedly grooming and sexually assaulting Plaintiff (and several other women), leaving his DNA on her skirt, and then going on a media campaign to discredit and dishonor Plaintiff and his other victims.”

Sounds like Ballard is claiming consent…but also his rep is criticizing publicizing the investigation as tainting it.

Edited July 10, 2024 by Calm